NCAA: The Missouri Valley Football Conference has a dilemma, but it's easily solvable

[Big Z Man 1990]

This season, the Missouri Valley Football Conference admitted the North Dakota Fighting Hawks. They are now at 11 schools, and have to protect certain regional matchups, but at the same time makes the rotating matchup schedule somewhat murky.

To ease the scheduling issues with having 11 members, the MVFC should admit a 12th school so that the teams can be divided into divisions.

Of all the scholarship FCS programs that hold football-only membership in a conference, the only one that really makes sense is Duquesne, whose Pittsburgh location is culturally in line with the Midwest rather than the Mid-Atlantic (where it is geographically located).

Duquesne is also the travel partner Youngstown State desperately needs. YSU is on the eastern edge of Ohio, and its closest conference rival, Indiana State is 424 miles away on the western edge of Indiana. Pittsburgh on the other hand, is only 66 miles away from Youngstown.

Duquesne has slowly climbed the ranks of FCS since being forced to move up in 1993. They played for 15 years as a non-scholarship program in the MAAC and were quite successful, having 14 straight winning seasons including 11 conference championships, an ECAC Bowl championship, and an FCS Mid-Major championship. After the MAAC football league dissolved in 2008, they moved to limited scholarship football in the formerly non-scholarship Northeast Conference, which originally allowed 30 scholarships, but now allows 40.

After going 6-15 in their first two seasons in the NEC, since 2010 the Dukes have had 8 winning seasons, four NEC titles, and two FCS playoff appearances.

So, it seems like a move to full, 63-scholarship football could be what is next for the Dukes. And the MVFC is in need of another member to ease scheduling issues. So, a move of the Dukes to the MVFC would satisfy both of their needs.

The divisions would look like this:

East: Duquesne, Illinois State, Indiana State, Southern Illinois, Western Illinois, Youngstown State
West: Missouri State, North Dakota, North Dakota State, Northern Iowa, South Dakota, South Dakota State

It's not a matter of if it will happen, but when.

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[Goalie_Bob]

For those not in the know, you pronounce Duquesne, "Due-kwes-nee".

 

[Unholy Diver]

From a travel standpoint it would not make sense for Duquesne not to mention they are much smaller scale than all of those schools, their home field seats 2,200 compared to the 10 to 20 thousand of all of the MVC schools

Duquesne is also a small private catholic university, they do not fit in with those schools

 

[GKJ]

Is someone interested in moving to that conference? That’s the first question.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

From a travel standpoint it would not make sense for Duquesne not to mention they are much smaller scale than all of those schools, their home field seats 2,200 compared to the 10 to 20 thousand of all of the MVC schools

Duquesne is also a small private catholic university, they do not fit in with those schools

They would play at most 2 road games against the West Division every year, with no protected crossovers. Youngstown State really needs a nearby member as I said, as Indiana State is over 420 miles away.

As far as fitting in, you could make the same argument about Vanderbilt in the SEC, or to a lesser extent, Northwestern in the Big Ten. They are the only private schools in those respective conferences, and have smaller enrollments than most of the public schools in each conference.

 

[Unholy Diver]

They would play at most 2 road games against the West Division every year, with no protected crossovers. Youngstown State really needs a nearby member as I said, as Indiana State is over 420 miles away.

As far as fitting in, you could make the same argument about Vanderbilt in the SEC, or to a lesser extent, Northwestern in the Big Ten. They are the only private schools in those respective conferences, and have smaller enrollments than most of the public schools in each conference.

There is still no good reason for Duquesne to do it, helping out Youngstown St is not a good reason. If YSU is 420 miles from their nearest member then other than YSU Duquesne would be nearly 500 miles away from its nearest member, where 8 of 10 NEC schools are under 500 miles away, it makes absolutely no sense for Duquesne to do it, football is not a moneymaker there, and moving to a conference where they would be traveling further and the smallest fish in the pond would be a terrible move for them.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

There is still no good reason for Duquesne to do it, helping out Youngstown St is not a good reason. If YSU is 420 miles from their nearest member then other than YSU Duquesne would be nearly 500 miles away from its nearest member, where 8 of 10 NEC schools are under 500 miles away, it makes absolutely no sense for Duquesne to do it, football is not a moneymaker there, and moving to a conference where they would be traveling further and the smallest fish in the pond would be a terrible move for them.

By your logic, Vanderbilt should leave the SEC and Northwestern should leave the Big Ten. Neither of which is happening.

 

[Unholy Diver]

By your logic, Vanderbilt should leave the SEC and Northwestern should leave the Big Ten. Neither of which is happening.

Have you ever been to Duquesne? Do you know anything about it other than the fact it is located in Pittsburgh? They have no business being in a conference like that. They play in a field that is smaller than many high schools. They do not fit and them moving would not benefit them at all

Get a new map

 

[GKJ]

Wait, Duquesne is in the northeast conference?

Why the hell would they want to leave that to give Youngstown State, who are misplaced, a rival? Travel is gonna be way easier going to places in Connecticut and New York City as opposed to Southern Illinois and North Dakota.

Their stadium only holds 2200 people?

What are we doing here?

 

[Unholy Diver]

Wait, Duquesne is in the northeast conference?

Why the hell would they want to leave that to give Youngstown State, who are misplaced, a rival? Travel is gonna be way easier going to places in Connecticut and New York City as opposed to Southern Illinois and North Dakota.

Their stadium only holds 2200 people?

What are we doing here?

Yeah Duquesne is in the NEC for football as a partial member, football and I think bowling competes in the NEC

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Duquesne's football stadium is smaller than most Pittsburgh-area high school stadiums, is on a bluff with zero room to expand anywhere near campus, and the athletic program is in-line with an urban private Catholic university. There is not one single reason why Duquesne would benefit from this aside from thinking that bigger = better...which may work for the SEC & Big Ten, but not when you're talking about the MVFC and a small-ish private school in a professional city.

Pitt football is barely relevant in Pittsburgh, Duquesne football is a complete non-entity. Duquesne's role in Pittsburgh sports was basically to have a slightly better basketball program until ~1982 in a city that's never fully embraced basketball.

Duquesne would also need to add a bunch of scholarships to bolster a football program less relevant than half a dozen high school programs in the region for what would be worse results.

Duquesne is hardly geographically central in the Northeast Conference, but the furthest school from them (Bryant in RI) is about equidistant to the 2nd & 3rd closest schools in the MVFC.

Hell, North Dakota was closer to most of their competition in the Big Sky Conference than they are to Pittsburgh and their closest conference foe was 800+ miles away there.

 

[GKJ]

We gotta be the only people in the world talking extensively about Duquesne’s football program.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Yeah I doubt there is this much talk about the football program on campus, let alone anywhere else

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The only other option I see is Youngstown State joining the Big South to compete in the same football conference as Robert Morris, who is also in the Horizon League for non-football sports. Then the MVFC could go to a 9-game conference, round-robin schedule.

Though ultimately, I want YSU to go FBS and the MAC.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

As a state-supported school, YSU might have the resources to make longer trips.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The Big South may very well just add YSU.

The Atlantic Sun, the primary conference of Big South football associates Kennesaw State and North Alabama, is planning to start sponsoring FCS football, which would pull those two out of the Big South.

Youngstown State makes sense as a replacement because they are in the Horizon League for other sports, as is newly-added Big South football associate Robert Morris.

 

[GKJ]

Is there any indication YSU wants to move up much less move? The MAC already has 6 teams in Ohio, 2 in the immediate vicinity of YSU. The purpose of conference expansion is to extend your footprint.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Is there any indication YSU wants to move up much less move? The MAC already has 6 teams in Ohio, 2 in the immediate vicinity of YSU. The purpose of conference expansion is to extend your footprint.

Not always.

There are probably many who want YSU in the MAC, to renew its rivalry with Akron and form rivalries with other Ohio-based schools. A vast majority of the current MAC membership, including the 6 current schools in Ohio, is closer to YSU than Indiana State. Buffalo is not in a state that borders Ohio, and yet it too is closer to YSU than Indiana State.

There have been numerous cases of schools joining new conferences in order to reduce travel costs. Some of them were in the previous realignment. Hawaii joined the Big West so that all its in-conference competition was in California. Belmont is closer to most of the OVC membership than it was to the ASUN membership. And TCU, in moving from the MW to the Big 12, went from being the only Central Time Zone school in their conference to one of nine, most of which are in the contiguous states of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas (although the Big 12 is also a power conference unlike the MW).

 

[GKJ]

Not always.

There are probably many who want YSU in the MAC, to renew its rivalry with Akron and form rivalries with other Ohio-based schools. A vast majority of the current MAC membership, including the 6 current schools in Ohio, is closer to YSU than Indiana State. Buffalo is not in a state that borders Ohio, and yet it too is closer to YSU than Indiana State.

There have been numerous cases of schools joining new conferences in order to reduce travel costs. Some of them were in the previous realignment. Hawaii joined the Big West so that all its in-conference competition was in California. Belmont is closer to most of the OVC membership than it was to the ASUN membership. And TCU, in moving from the MW to the Big 12, went from being the only Central Time Zone school in their conference to one of nine, most of which are in the contiguous states of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas (although the Big 12 is also a power conference unlike the MW).

TCU moved up to the Big 12 because they needed to replace their exodus of schools as Texas was on the doorstep of the Pac-12. They weren’t expanding, they were just trying to survive, and TCU had long proven to be a better program than a number of the ones that were already there.

YSU jumping up to the MAC doesn’t do anything for the MAC, and I’d be shocked if any of those other Ohio schools care about them as a rival for even an ounce. They’d probably be C-USA if they made the jump to FBS. Them being so close to other Ohio schools, since there’s 6 of them, works against them, not for them.

Buffalo, geography-wise, New York doesn’t border Ohio, but Buffalo is less than 3 hours from Cleveland so it’s immaterial. Buffalo doesn’t really identify as a ‘mid-American’ market but there is nowhere else for them to be.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

YSU would never join C-USA. They want to decrease travel, not increase.

 

[GKJ]

YSU would never join C-USA. They want to decrease travel, not increase.

There’s not really a spot for them then unless they want to be independent, and that’s hard to do as Idaho found out, or there’s another realignment raid and the group of five need new schools.

 

[Unholy Diver]

What about the Pioneer league or the Ohio Valley Conference? It looks like both of those leagues have an odd number of teams

 

[GKJ]

Duquesne moves to 2-0 with a 17-0 win at Wagner

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The next realignment cycle is in full swing.

The Big South is about to lose football-only members Kennesaw State and North Alabama when their primary home, the Atlantic Sun Conference, begins football sponsorship in 2022, initially starting as an FCS league, but with eyes on jumping to FBS. Stetson will not join A-Sun football, they will continue to play non-scholarship football in the Pioneer League, though they lost their in-state rivals, Jacksonville (also primarily in the A-Sun) when they dropped football after the 2019 season).

I think Duquesne might be on track for football-only membership in the Big South. The ability to resume playing crosstown rival Robert Morris annually might be appealing to the Dukes.

I would say Youngstown State also join the Big South for football only, but I think the MAC could be headed for a major expansion. As it is, they stand to keep all current full members, a benefit of having them all in the Great Lakes region which makes them non-starters for any other conference, P5 or G5.

The MAC could add as full members Cleveland State, Robert Morris, Southern Illinois, and Youngstown State, permitting RMU to keep its football program in FCS as a much smaller private institution than the public schools in the MAC. RMU would join to put the MAC in the Pittsburgh market, which has had many sports rivalries with Ohio-based teams over the years. Cleveland State, which would also be a non-football member but with no football program at all, and Youngstown State joining existing NEOH schools Akron and Kent State would give the Cleveland-based MAC a monopoly in D-I athletics in NEOH.

And Southern Illinois would give Northern Illinois an in-state rival.

Two football-only members, this time staying in for the long haul, would be added to take the place of CSU and RMU in the East Division for football. I say the MAC should give those spots to otherwise A-10 schools Fordham and Richmond, given the MAC's past housing of Temple and UMass football (while Temple is no longer in the A-10, UMass still is).

And Duquesne joining the Big South for football only would fulfill the completion of its rise from the non-scholarship FCS ranks to playing full 63-scholarship football. They would also have a conference rival in neighboring New Jersey, Monmouth, who is also in the Big South for football only.

The rest of Duquesne's athletic program could be on the move too.

With the SEC becoming a football-based superconference, we could see a basketball-based superconference coming soon too.

That would most likely be the Big East. The Atlantic 10, the #2-ranked non-football conference in men's basketball, has quite a large amount of urban Catholic schools, like the Big East. 5 of those schools - Dayton, Duquesne, La Salle, Saint Joseph's and Saint Louis - plus Detroit Mercy of the Horizon League, could make the jump to the Big East, putting the three Catholic schools in the Philly Big 5 in one conference (Villanova is already a member).

This would damage the stature of the Atlantic 10 very much, so they'd have to look at mid-major conferences for replacements. But that's another discussion.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

As for the remainder of the MVFC, it could expand into an all-sports conference and sever all ties with the MVC, or possibly, the MVC schools that don't play scholarship football could all leave and the MVFC forms the basis for a new look MVC.

The five MVC schools with scholarship football are all public institutions, while those who play non-scholarship football or have no football program (including incoming member Belmont) are private. The six private schools could break away from the MVC as I mentioned earlier, perhaps inviting Bellarmine, Lipscomb (which is located on the same boulevard as Belmont), Oral Roberts and St. Thomas to form a new conference, with other members possibly being added from D2 as well.

The public schools (sans Southern Illinois) would become a new football-focused MVC. The Dakota 4 and Western Illinois would be invited from the Summit League to be part of the new league. Eastern Illinois and Southeast Missouri State would also be invited from the Ohio Valley Conference. To even out at 12, I could see Augustana, a D2 school in the NSIC with plans to go D1, be invited.

The Summit League could be forced to dissolve with all these poachings. Denver would go back to the WAC, while Kansas City and Omaha could join the Horizon League. The Horizon League would still need at least two more new members to stay at 12 or more.

Other candidates for Horizon League membership (particularly targeting non-football public schools in the Midwest/Great Lakes/Ohio Valley regions) include D2 schools (Wisconsin-)Parkside, Purdue-Northwest, Illinois-Springfield, Missouri-St. Louis, Southern Indiana, Minnesota-Crookston, St. Cloud State and Pitt-Johnstown, and NAIA school Michigan-Dearborn.

Those that the Horizon League doesn't invite could form a new D2 league.

I could see this league consisting of:

Illinois-Springfield
Indiana East (moving from NAIA)
Indiana Kokomo (moving from NAIA)
Indiana Northwest (moving from NAIA)
Indiana South Bend (moving from NAIA)
Indiana Southeast (moving from NAIA)
Lake Superior State
Minnesota-Crookston
Missouri-St. Louis
Parkside
Pitt-Johnstown
Purdue-Northwest
St. Cloud State
Shawnee State (moving from NAIA)
Southern Indiana
Wisconsin-Superior (moving from D3)

This new conference would target Midwestern public institutions that don't have football, especially branches of major universities.