The Great Debate(rehashed): Forsberg vs Lindros

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He didn't post them un-adjusted, he posted Lindros' relation to scoring finishes and the players he finished against.

Valid point IMO.

Exactly. All stats for everyone were from '92/93 to '96/97, i.e. at the exact same "era". The 23W-1L-1T fight record needs no adjusting.

Sorry guys, I'm on vacation and must have had too many tiki drinks at brunch. I don't even know how I could have misread OJ's post that badly... dumbest post I've made in a long time.

 

[jkrx]

Exactly. All stats for everyone were from '92/93 to '96/97, i.e. at the exact same "era". The 23W-1L-1T fight record needs no adjusting.

Are those fight stats from dropyourgloves? In that case they aren't very reliable as they use voting for fight results and there is a lot of Lindros fans out there.

Edit: For example they've voted Lindros the winner against Beukeboom but there's never a fight. Beukeboom attacks Lindros they both loses their balance and glides into the net.

Versus Zmolek Lindros lands a punch and refs jumps in. This is voted as a decisive win for Lindros. That site is meaningless.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Are those fight stats from dropyourgloves? In that case they aren't very reliable as they use voting for fight results and there is a lot of Lindros fans out there.

Edit: For example they've voted Lindros the winner against Beukeboom but there's never a fight. Beukeboom attacks Lindros they both loses their balance and glides into the net.

Versus Zmolek Lindros lands a punch and refs jumps in. This is voted as a decisive win for Lindros. That site is meaningless.

Regardless of the stats, Lindros was a great fighter. For whatever that is worth in a comparison like this one.

 

[jkrx]

Regardless of the stats, Lindros was a great fighter. For whatever that is worth in a comparison like this one.

He was a good fighter not really great. Just very good at using his size versus smaller opponents and hugging and wrestling versus bigger. I remember when he fought Derian Hatcher and tried to slew foot him, Derian dominated the fight.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He was a good fighter not really great. Just very good at using his size versus smaller opponents and hugging and wrestling versus bigger. I remember when he fought Derian Hatcher and tried to slew foot him, Derian dominated the fight.

I really think you're underestimating Lindros' fighting ability. He more or less ragdolled Scott Stevens in a fight.

That said, I don't remember the Hatcher fight you are talking about (video anyone?)

 

[jkrx]

I really think you're underestimating Lindros' fighting ability. He more or less ragdolled Scott Stevens in a fight.

That said, I don't remember the Hatcher fight you are talking about (video anyone?)

Stevens isn't a very good fighter either. That 's just a testament to Lindros strength.

 

[Boxscore]

He was a good fighter not really great. Just very good at using his size versus smaller opponents and hugging and wrestling versus bigger. I remember when he fought Derian Hatcher and tried to slew foot him, Derian dominated the fight.

Lindros wasn't a technical pugilist but he was as strong as an ox and could overpower almost anyone when he was angry and started throwing fists. He defeated Chris Simon in a preseason game up in Le Colisee and battled to a draw with Marty McSorely. Those two bouts alone give Lindros much street creed as a fighter.

 

[jkrx]

Lindros wasn't a technical pugilist but he was as strong as an ox and could overpower almost anyone when he was angry and started throwing fists. He defeated Chris Simon in a preseason game up in Le Colisee and battled to a draw with Marty McSorely. Those two bouts alone give Lindros much street creed as a fighter.

I agreed he was strong but he wasn't a great fighter. He drew against McSorley because just when McSorley were getting into his rhythm the refs broke up the fight. Versus Simon he did the "Chara takedown". He was a good fighter that is all.

Edit: It's irrelevant either way. Lindros fighting prowness is far beyond Forsbergs. Not that I see that as an advantage when discussing who was better.

 

[Copmuter*]

Regardless of the stats, Lindros was a great fighter. For whatever that is worth in a comparison like this one.

It's worth absolutely nothing

 

[Hasbro]

Lindros wasn't a technical pugilist but he was as strong as an ox and could overpower almost anyone when he was angry and started throwing fists. He defeated Chris Simon in a preseason game up in Le Colisee and battled to a draw with Marty McSorely. Those two bouts alone give Lindros much street creed as a fighter.

And Elvis Stojko takes it away.

 

[Elvis P]

One thing I've wondered about recently is Lindros. Without all the Bobby Clark, contracts, draft, injuries, trades, controversies etc., how good would he have been? Before the draft he was compared to Howe, Hull, Lemieux, Messier, etc. as a big forward with great skills. It turned out that Jagr was the great one, but what could have been? Could he have a career as good as Forsberg or even better? What do you guys think? Also, should he be in the HoF?

 

[BraveCanadian]

One thing I've wondered about recently is Lindros. Without all the Bobby Clark, contracts, draft, injuries, trades, controversies etc., how good would he have been? Before the draft he was compared to Howe, Hull, Lemieux, Messier, etc. as a big forward with great skills. It turned out that Jagr was the great one, but what could have been? Could he have been as good as Forsberg or even better? What do you guys think? Also, should he be in the HoF?

He was better. Lindros was the total package.

 

[Elvis P]

He was better. Lindros was the total package.

I apologize. I meant could he have had a better career than Forsberg without all the injuries, contracts, trades, draft, Bobby Clarke, etc? Without all the controversies.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I apologize. I meant could he have had a better career than Forsberg without all the injuries, contracts, trades, draft, Bobby Clarke, etc? Without all the controversies.

For sure.

Forsberg could have had a better career without all his injury and physiological problems too.

 

[Elvis P]

For sure. Forsberg could have had a better career without all his injury and physiological problems too.

Good point. I was being unfair to Forsberg.

 

[Elvis P]

I forgot to say this yesterday. I don't understand fans not liking Lindros (or Hawk fans not liking Chelios or Hull). Eric wanted to choose his employer and not play with concussions. The same rights we all have. Does that make him a bad person who I should not like? I don't think so.

 

[Thenameless]

I like Lindros.

Sport, however, is a little different from the normal working world. I'm not going to dispute anything about concussions, as I'd like to live a long and healthy life.

There's two things about being drafted by a team and not wanting to play for them though.

1. It is an honour to go first overall. And sports heroes, as we fans see it, should welcome the challenge of going to a weak team and eventually bringing it to the Promiseland - like say Mario Lemieux did (probably saving the Penguins franchise in the process). Instead of being Quebec's hero, Lindros villainized himself in the public's eye. Ray Bourque is another example of how we think an athlete should act. For years, he languished on a Bruins club that for the most part, had no real shot at winning the Cup. He remained loyal and never complained. Late in his career, management rewarded him by sending him to the mighty Avs - and he finally won the Cup. Even non-Avalanche fans and non-Ray Bourque fans were happy for him. You're right in saying that people should have a right to choose their employer, but star athletes are looked on as icons and heroes, and may be judged more harshly (or even unfairly) by the public.

2. The way it was done might also have something to do with it. Maybe if it was his decision alone, and he was able to give good reasons for not wanting to play there, it might not have been so bad. As it stands, it looks like his parents were meddling too much in his affairs, so he wasn't man enough to make his own decisions. This may only have been a perception (I was not with the Lindros family when they were discussing this), but it's certainly how it was portrayed by the media.

 

[Boxscore]

These guys are two of my favorite players ever. To be honest though, the Lindros family "big timed" the OHL and NHL. Ultimately, Eric was good enough to win these fights but there was certainly a sense of entitlement and arrogance there. On the ice at his best, Lindros was as dominant a player as I've ever seen.

 

[Hobnobs]

These guys are two of my favorite players ever. To be honest though, the Lindros family "big timed" the OHL and NHL. Ultimately, Eric was good enough to win these fights but there was certainly a sense of entitlement and arrogance there. On the ice at his best, Lindros was as dominant a player as I've ever seen.

Lindros is probably the most hated star of the game.

 

[Boxscore]

Lindros is probably the most hated star of the game.

Right up there with Ted Lindsay, perhaps.

 

[Elvis P]

...2. The way it was done might also have something to do with it. ...

This is a good point. Look at the way LeBron left Cleveland.

 

[bobholly39]

In hockey history (at least as far as i'm familiar with), Eric Lindros is the #2 forward of all-time who I wonder "what if" after Lemieux.

I think a fully healthy Mario Lemieux playing in every game/every year does crazy things.


Lindros? Obviously, he doesn't quite reach the Gretzky/Lemieux levels, nor even close. But I think Lindros might have reached very high in an all-time ranking of centers.

As much as i'm arguing for Crosby in the other thread as potentially pacing towards #3 center behind Lemieux/Gretzky? I think Lindros could have been good enough to pace someone like Crosby in that regards, or close.

Back on topic, Lindros vs Forsberg.

I love Forsberg, and think he's ridiculously talented. But somehow, over a full healthy career i would expect greater things from Lindros - and it possibly wouldn't even be all that close.