The Flyers are an incongruent Franchise.

[Jtown]

Trading Richards and Carter was a leadership change, attempt to get younger, get out of long term contracts, etc... It wasn't just one thing. You know that.

They were not rebuilding....they signed Bryz. They were trying to still win. That all went to crap when Bryz folded, Pronger got hurt, Kimmo got old and we had no prospects in the system coming up..

So trading your two best players does not equal a rebuild but, trading away a super old kimmo, hartnell, schenn, vinny, and l schenn = a rebuild? that makes no sense.

Also you still haven't answered my question about the sabres. I am confused by what you are saying.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Imo Murray was a genius in his ability to tank. However Buffalo did 3 things poorly. 1. They fired murray, 2 they traded for ROR, and 3 They tried to shortcut the rebuild.

But why not blow it up. THat sabres team were going nowhere and now they have some great young pieces that they can build around. .

They fired Murray rightfully so. He’s an idiot GM who did two of the things you’re criticizing them for.

Where he really failed is that his prospect pool sucked outside of those top picks despite tanking all those years & stockpiling picks. Same reason Edmonton failed all those years.

It’s just not an easy call to make in the NHL, there’s a lot more potential financial repercussions at stake that make owner’s uneasy about giving the clearance on that call. You can do things mostly right & still get unlucky spiraling your team into 5-10 years of irrelevance. Now the top three picks are up grabs even taking more out of your hands.

 

[Magua]

Murray was a genius in his own head.

To everyone else he was a moron who thought he was a genius

 

[Jtown]

They fired Murray rightfully so. He’s an idiot GM who did two of the things you’re criticizing them for.

It’s just not an easy call to make in the NHL, there’s a lot more potential financial repercussions at stake that make owner’s uneasy about giving the clearance on that call. You can do things mostly right & still get unlucky spiraling your team into 5-10 years of irrelevance. Now the top three picks are up grabs even taking more out of your hands.

He was a genius in the sense that he blew it up so convingly and got some really great returns.

Vanek, Moulson, pominville, gaustad, ryan miller, halak , neuvirth, .

 

[Lotusflower]

They aren't regressing.

You type a novel yet you still miss the point. Hak's first year he exceeded expectations. We made the playoffs.
The next year a reasonable consensus was make the playoffs again and maybe win a round. We fell on our faces in the second half and were basically the worst team in the league after December.

That's a regression.

This year a reasonable consensus was playoff bubble team. It's early December. We're a bottom 5 team hoping for the top pick in the draft.

That's a regression.

The team has regressed each of the last two years under Hak. The prospect talk is nice if the team's concept at the pro level didn't undermine their own pipeline. You know how I can prove it? Two years ago we had a great prospect pool and playoff team at the pro level. A year ago we STILL had a great prospect pool with a non-playoff team at the pro level. This year we once again have a great prospect pool and a bottomfeeder at the pro level.

That's a regression.

The actual pro team has regressed even if the prospect pipeline has continued to fill. You know the actual team that matters, the Flyers?
The only thing that's changed is great potential young players in TK, Patrick, and Provy have been exposed to terrible coaching.
The coach and the GM have built up a surplus of solid potential on the farm yet continue to hand the reins to low skill vets as a stopgap until they feel the young guys are ready in your opinion? That would be fine if we didn't already have veteran stars who can help carry the load.
These are prime assets whose primes are wasted for no reason AND no return. In this I agree with Jtown (eww)

What I'm saying is the goalposts keep changing for the Hextall defenders. People lean on his drafting young players but he's put his faith in a coach who doesn't trust them and has hamstringed the current team with terrible veterans so how can anyone confidently say Hextall even knows how to competently turn the roster over to them?

 

[Tripod]

So trading your two best players does not equal a rebuild but, trading away a super old kimmo, hartnell, schenn, vinny, and l schenn = a rebuild? that makes no sense.

Also you still haven't answered my question about the sabres. I am confused by what you are saying.

Again, leadership change. It was Prongers team and Mike was the C. And Giroux was becoming our best forward. But you know all this, you just have this need to argue tonight.

As for Buffalo....who cares. All I said was that some want us to short cut the rebuild...like you said Buffalo did. Nothing more.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

He was a genius in the sense that he blew it up so convingly and got some really great returns.

Vanek, Moulson, pominville, gaustad, ryan miller, halak , neuvirth, .

He didn’t even put the plan in motion though. It already started before he got there.

Yeah he traded players including both goalies because they were hurting his team chances of getting the best odds. He still didn’t get the guy he really wanted in McDavid though. Which goes to show you why owners are hesitant of putting that much faith into ping pong balls. It’s even changed since then when he wouldn’t even been guaranteed an Eichel or third overall pick under the since enhanced lottery rules.

 

[Jtown]

I believe you are wrong. Most on this board who don't want to maintain status quo want us to Do a full rebuild as oppose to trading our best young talent at a chance to win now and short cut the rebuild.

 

[Jtown]

He didn’t even put the plan in motion though. It already started before he got there.

Yeah he traded players including both goalies because they were hurting his team chances of getting the best odds. He still didn’t get the guy he really wanted in McDavid though. Which goes to show you why owners are hesitant of putting that much faith into ping pong balls. It’s even changed since then when he wouldn’t even been guaranteed an Eichel or third overall pick under the since enhanced lottery rules.

Eichel is a pretty good consolation prize. I can't recall a class that has produced two centers of that caliber since ever? Finishing last guaranteed you one of the two.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Eichel is a pretty good consolation prize. I can't recall a class that has produced two centers of that caliber since ever? Finishing last guaranteed you one of the two.

It is but they aren’t really that much better today than they were then despite that which is the point I’ve been making all along.

Plus you don’t have the advantage of saying in a draft like that anymore at least we walk away with the second guy as a worst case scenario. It could be the fourth guy these days as we saw with Colorado last year who was by far the worst team in the league.

You might not like it but NHL teams have to weigh the pros & cons on a decision like that & more times than not they side for caution.

 

[achdumeingute]

no it is not. each year we started the year trying to make the playoffs. Rebuilding teams know going into the year there is no hope for playoffs. Each year we don't make the playoffs we consider it a disappointing year.

I have not expected this team to make the playoffs in 3 seasons. I'm not surprised if they don't.

Guess what, I don't think its going to happen next year either.

 

[Jtown]

I have not expected this team to make the playoffs in 3 seasons. I'm not surprised if they don't.

Guess what, I don't think its going to happen next year either.

and go back and look at the polls we post up every year asking people if you think the flyers are a playoff team. Every year....yes. WHen you have the talent we have you expect playoffs.

 

[Striiker]

You type a novel yet you still miss the point. Hak's first year he exceeded expectations. We made the playoffs.
The next year a reasonable consensus was make the playoffs again and maybe win a round. We fell on our faces in the second half and were basically the worst team in the league after December.

That's a regression.

This year a reasonable consensus was playoff bubble team. It's early December. We're a bottom 5 team hoping for the top pick in the draft.

That's a regression.

The team has regressed each of the last two years under Hak. The prospect talk is nice if the team's concept at the pro level didn't undermine their own pipeline. You know how I can prove it? Two years ago we had a great prospect pool and playoff team at the pro level. A year ago we STILL had a great prospect pool with a non-playoff team at the pro level. This year we once again have a great prospect pool and a bottomfeeder at the pro level.

That's a regression.

The actual pro team has regressed even if the prospect pipeline has continued to fill. You know the actual team that matters, the Flyers?
The only thing that's changed is great potential young players in TK, Patrick, and Provy have been exposed to terrible coaching.
The coach and the GM have built up a surplus of solid potential on the farm yet continue to hand the reins to low skill vets as a stopgap until they feel the young guys are ready in your opinion? That would be fine if we didn't already have veteran stars who can help carry the load.
These are prime assets whose primes are wasted for no reason AND no return. In this I agree with Jtown (eww)

What I'm saying is the goalposts keep changing for the Hextall defenders. People lean on his drafting young players but he's put his faith in a coach who doesn't trust them and has hamstringed the current team with terrible veterans so how can anyone confidently say Hextall even knows how to competently turn the roster over to them?

Holy hell there's so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.

Instead of going line by line and wasting my time writing a giant post, I'll just point out that the reason you're so wrong is that you're hyper-focused on record and ignoring context and what actually matters (the improvement of the future of the roster).

Last year they had an unsustainably bad two months super-slump where nobody could score, which ruined the season and record. Now this year they've had an even more unsustainable 10 game losing streak. Both of these events have distorted the record so much that it no longer shows the real ability of the team. The teams still not great, but it's also certainly not as bad as the record suggests.

So TLDR: they aren't regressing, you just think they are because you're focusing on the wrong thing and ignoring what actually matters.

To put it another way...

Look at the Devils this year. I think you'd say they're improved, right? Well, based on your logic for progression/regression, if you looked at the state of their franchise this offseason you would have said they're regressing because the past season was worse than the one before. Obviously that wasn't true though, seeing as they're far better this year than either of the previous years. Now, only 26 games into this season, they have more than half their total wins last year... 15 vs 28.

 

[Jtown]

It is but they aren’t really that much better today than they were then despite that which is the point I’ve been making all along.

Plus you don’t have the advantage of saying in a draft like that anymore at least we walk away with the second guy as a worst case scenario. It could be the fourth guy these days as we saw with Colorado last year who was by far the worst team in the league.

You might not like it but NHL teams have to weigh the pros & cons on a decision like that & more times than not they side for caution.

TO win a stanley cup involves a lot of luck. What if the flyers had a fully healthy roster in 1987 What if carter potted that goal at the end of regulation of game 6.

It will take luck to win a stanley cup. Such as winning the 2nd pick int he lottery. I am fine with leaving things up to luck than to proceed down the path of mediocrity.

 

[achdumeingute]

and go back and look at the polls we post up every year asking people if you think the flyers are a playoff team. Every year....yes. WHen you have the talent we have you expect playoffs.

Then people are not paying attention. I think we COULD make the playoffs if some things go right or young players take a step forward, but thats a huge planned unknown. We have what we believe is the potential talent here and coming to be a good team...but they have not put it together yet.

Its entirely possible that Konecny and Patrick flip a switch next year and provide a huge increase in secondary scoring, and help to push us forward, but I wouldn't plan on it.

In the off season, countless posters had Lindblom as LW line one, and thats not happening, even if he were here to EXPECT a rookie to push THIS team over the top is completely unrealistic.

 

[deadhead]

They have regressed at the NHL level, they let a lot of veterans go who were decent but in their declining years.
So the regression would have occurred in any case unless they traded draft picks for new talent, instead, Hextall got rid of veterans before they declined so far they had no value.

They sneak into the playoffs two years ago, when the goalies collapsed last year it hide the changes on the roster, the goalie collapse and a bunch of bad breaks this year obscures the improvement in talent, though not in play. When you start Patrick, Hagg and Sanheim over Schenn, Streit and MDZ, you're gonna go backwards in the short-run.

Right now we're adding a lot of young players and will continue to do so, like most young players, at first they're more talented but less productive than the veterans they replace. Over a year or two hopefully that changes.

 

[Jtown]

Then people are not paying attention. I think we COULD make the playoffs if some things go right or young players take a step forward, but thats a huge planned unknown. We have what we believe is the potential talent here and coming to be a good team...but they have not put it together yet.

Its entirely possible that Konecny and Patrick flip a switch next year and provide a huge increase in secondary scoring, and help to push us forward, but I wouldn't plan on it.

In the off season, countless posters had Lindblom as LW line one, and thats not happening, even if he were here to EXPECT a rookie to push THIS team over the top is completely unrealistic.

you then have realistic expectations. I too was worried that much of our potential success depended on rookies playing like vets.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

TO win a stanley cup involves a lot of luck. What if the flyers had a fully healthy roster in 1987 What if carter potted that goal at the end of regulation of game 6.

It will take luck to win a stanley cup. Such as winning the 2nd pick int he lottery. I am fine with leaving things up to luck than to proceed down the path of mediocrity.

That’s not even comparable to the message I’m trying to relay here. Hockey is a business & money talks just like everything else whether you like it or not.

 

[achdumeingute]

So TLDR: they aren't regressing, you just think they are because you're focusing on the wrong thing and ignoring what actually matters.

They are exactly what most young teams are, inconsistent.

 

[Jtown]

That’s not even comparable to the message I’m trying to relay here. Hockey is a business & money talks just like everything else whether you like it or not.

nothing brings more value to a team than winning a stanley cup. Ask franchises such as the blackhawks, penguins, patriots, golden state warriors, and kansas city royals.

Royals’ value is now just short of $1 billion, says Forbes

 

[achdumeingute]

you then have realistic expectations. I too was worried that much of our potential success depended on rookies playing like vets.

Yup, it will be there again next year, new coach or not. We have not produced an established "second tier yet", and our defense still is too mistake prone.

But the young guys are "becoming vets".

There is a point though, when we either get through this, or the critical mass of all these "good prospects" breaks through and our team is just better because the overall talent level is. I'm expecting to see that in 19/20 season...if the prospects don't look like they are doing it then, and we don't have a new coach, something needs to change (hextall).

 

[achdumeingute]

nothing brings more value to a team than winning a stanley cup. Ask franchises such as the blackhawks, penguins, patriots, golden state warriors, and kansas city royals.

Royals’ value is now just short of $1 billion, says Forbes

Can't really plan for getting lucky, as EVERY single one of those teams did. If that is your criteria, Hexy's doing great because he gets more draft picks meaning more chances at luck.

 

[Jtown]

Can't really plan for getting lucky, as EVERY single one of those teams did. If that is your criteria, Hexy's doing great because he gets more draft picks meaning more chances at luck.

luck plays a big role in it. It truly does. cough cough patrick kane. Cough cough leon stickle

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Let's hope. Most 2's look alot better than this. In my book he should have been sent back.

To the team that mis diagnosed his first sports hernia injury and the Flyer doctors had to fix?
Pass on that thought alone

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

nothing brings more value to a team than winning a stanley cup. Ask franchises such as the blackhawks, penguins, patriots, golden state warriors, and kansas city royals.

Royals’ value is now just short of $1 billion, says Forbes

The NHL league structure is so different than those sports so bringing up NFL, NBA, & MLB teams isn’t even comparable. Those teams on average make way more money & in turn are valued more than NHL teams.

As for hockey teams Pittsburgh nearly lost their team in the process. Chicago didn’t but went through a lot years where there were a lot of empty seats. There’s a lot of other teams that weren’t fortunate enough to win Stanley Cup’s like those teams but had the burdens those teams went through with fan support which really hurt their bottom line.