The Detroit Red Wings: Decline and Fall of an Empire

[DeYarmond Edison]

I figured some of you would get a kick out of this. He's pretty on point with everything he says.

If you enjoy it, check out some of his other videos. Very entertaining stuff and he's very knowledgeable.

Click to read more...

 

[izlez]

Oh look, a video bashing Holland! Let's be sure to post it 47 times!

 

[DeYarmond Edison]

Oh look, a video bashing Holland! Let's be sure to post it 47 times!

Has this already been posted?


Just thought some would find it entertaining. You don't have to watch it bud.

 

[Dotter]

The decline and fall of the Red Wings isn't on Ken Holland... it's on the NHL for changing the rules.

The NHL is designed for ALL teams to decline and fall after their 1st overall drafted players/core age and decline. It's going to happen to Chicago, Pittsburgh, then Oilers, TMLs... all will rise and fall. That's the design of the NHL.

We see less blockbuster trades, less GM creativity, less exciting FA frenzy, less exciting trade deadline moves.

The most entertaining part of the nu:NHL is teams signing mistakes for a $100 million only for them to run off to the KHL.

As far as Ken Holland goes, when putting the actual circumstances in context, the NHL stacked the decked for the sole purpose Red Wings would fall. The conundrum is fans, who pay nothing, sit in their favorite lazy-e-boy and post on random hockey forums and blogs to talk about how they would do things, and their way is the only right way, while disregarding the actual $$ and politics from the factor.

NHL zapped front loaded contracts and it hurt the Wings for legally signing contracts they are now being punishing for.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Has this already been posted or are you just whining?


Just thought some would find it entertaining. You don't have to watch it bud.

Yes, it has already been posted.

And this is just my own opinion, but I don't find it very entertaining to hear what has been typed here ad nauseam in a loud, jeering voice. It's already not fun to watch a team I love trip over their own dicks out on the ice.

And also... who in the hell is calling the Red Wings a joke? They've missed the playoffs once since the late 80s. Jokes are teams like the Clippers or Lions or Browns or Coyotes and the New York Jets, Teams that even when everything goes right for them, you know that they're going to **** all over themselves and waste it.

The only reason that anyone is currently laughing at Detroit is that they're relieved that the steamroller of the league is just like the rest of them. It's laughter of relief, not of derision.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The decline and fall of the Red Wings isn't on Ken Holland... it's on the NHL for changing the rules.

The NHL is designed for ALL teams to decline and fall after their 1st overall drafted players/core age and decline. It's going to happen to Chicago, Pittsburgh, then Oilers, TMLs... all will rise and fall. That's the design of the NHL.

We see less blockbuster trades, less GM creativity, less exciting FA frenzy, less exciting trade deadline moves.

The most entertaining part of the nu:NHL is teams signing mistakes for a $100 million only for them to run off to the KHL.

As far as Ken Holland goes, when putting the actual circumstances in context, the NHL stacked the decked for the sole purpose Red Wings would fall. The conundrum is fans, who pay nothing, sit in their favorite lazy-e-boy and post on random hockey forums and blogs to talk about how they would do things, and their way is the only right way, while disregarding the actual $$ and politics from the factor.

NHL zapped front loaded contracts and it hurt the Wings for legally signing contracts they are now being punishing for.

I mean, there were some truly abhorrent moves there. They wasted 7.4M in cap space in 2012. Cola, Tootoo, and Sammy did NOTHING for the team AND ate the two compliance buyouts they had.

 

[Dotter]

They wasted 7.4M in cap space in 2012.

Define "wasted". Because Iliches like to spend to the cap, who in 2012 could they have used that cap space on but couldn't because they "wasted" it?

If I remember correctly, those contracts road blocked nothing. That's what I mean when people complain about contracts that have no bearing on the outcome. The "cap hell" is overblown. It did not stop them from offering the best FA they put a bid in, Ryan Suter, to a mega-million dollar contract. There's been nobody the "cap hell" stopped them from bidding on.

How Detroit spends their money makes no difference to me. What they need more than anything right now is keeping their top round draft picks and drafting well. Last draft Red Wings drafted more prospects than they have in over 20 years... when the draft use to go to 9 rounds instead of 7 it is now.

Wings are stocking up on picks and drafting. And, in my opinion, Wings drafting has gotten dramatically better since Jim Nill left the organization. There's a few kids I'm really excited about. But the jury is still out.

 

[Winger98]

Define "wasted". Because Iliches like to spend to the cap, who in 2012 could they have used that cap space on but couldn't because they "wasted" it?

If I remember correctly, those contracts road blocked nothing. That's what I mean when people complain about contracts that have no bearing on the outcome. The "cap hell" is overblown. It did not stop them from offering the best FA they put a bid in, Ryan Suter, to a mega-million dollar contract. There's been nobody the "cap hell" stopped them from bidding on.

How Detroit spends their money makes no difference to me. What they need more than anything right now is keeping their top round draft picks and drafting well. Last draft Red Wings drafted more prospects than they have in over 20 years... when the draft use to go to 9 rounds instead of 7 it is now.

Wings are stocking up on picks and drafting. And, in my opinion, Wings drafting has gotten dramatically better since Jim Nill left the organization. There's a few kids I'm really excited about. But the jury is still out.

I think Sammy/Tootoo/Coliacavo is a pretty solid way of defining waste. Add Bertuzzi to it as well.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Define "wasted". Because Iliches like to spend to the cap, who in 2012 could they have used that cap space on but couldn't because they "wasted" it?

If I remember correctly, those contracts road blocked nothing. That's what I mean when people complain about contracts that have no bearing on the outcome. The "cap hell" is overblown. It did not stop them from offering the best FA they put a bid in, Ryan Suter, to a mega-million dollar contract. There's been nobody the "cap hell" stopped them from bidding on.

How Detroit spends their money makes no difference to me. What they need more than anything right now is keeping their top round draft picks and drafting well. Last draft Red Wings drafted more prospects than they have in over 20 years... when the draft use to go to 9 rounds instead of 7 it is now.

Wings are stocking up on picks and drafting. And, in my opinion, Wings drafting has gotten dramatically better since Jim Nill left the organization. There's a few kids I'm really excited about. But the jury is still out.

Dotter. I agree with you about them not actually being hamstrung from whenever they truly wanted to make a move.

Hell, I argue that till the cows come home.

However, when one dude gets 2.5M and plays 6 games for you, another gets 6M and plays only a couple, and a third gets 1.9M over three years and scores about 10 points for the year and a half he's here. And uses up the two "get out of contract free" cards that you have because they are so ****ing useless. That's a waste.

And I think that contract to Sammy and his inability to play at all during it was a big part in the Dan Cleary saga. If you sign a player worth a damn for any portion of that 3M (Daniel Winnik, Jay McClement type) that is a player who lessens the "need" to honor the 3 year Danny boy retirement package. And hell, sign a guy who's actually a bottom six player and then you don't have Abby-Datsyuk-Cleary.

 

[Frk It]

Dotter. I agree with you about them not actually being hamstrung from whenever they truly wanted to make a move.

Hell, I argue that till the cows come home.

However, when one dude gets 2.5M and plays 6 games for you, another gets 6M and plays only a couple, and a third gets 1.9M over three years and scores about 10 points for the year and a half he's here. And uses up the two "get out of contract free" cards that you have because they are so ****ing useless. That's a waste.

And I think that contract to Sammy and his inability to play at all during it was a big part in the Dan Cleary saga. If you sign a player worth a damn for any portion of that 3M (Daniel Winnik, Jay McClement type) that is a player who lessens the "need" to honor the 3 year Danny boy retirement package. And hell, sign a guy who's actually a bottom six player and then you don't have Abby-Datsyuk-Cleary.

On one hand, IIRC Sammy refused to go on LTIR and kind of screwed us.

On the other hand, even after we knew Sammy wasn't going to go on LTIR in the fall of 2013, we signed Cleary in in Sept regardless which put us even further into a bad cap situation.

 

[jkutswings]

Decline was inevitable. A mountaintop only leads to heading downward.

Choosing to repeatedly delay a rebuild, overpay depth players, lose value on tradeable assets, and maintain bubble status, at the expense of the ease of eventually trying to build something back up... That's all self-inflicted.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

On one hand, IIRC Sammy refused to go on LTIR and kind of screwed us.

On the other hand, even after we knew Sammy wasn't going to go on LTIR in the fall of 2013, we signed Cleary in in Sept regardless which put us even further into a bad cap situation.

Yeah, and that's why I hated the Sammy signing. He borked us, so we stuck with the lunchpail company man who would never betray us. Like I was saying, we get a legit mid-bottom six winger... not even anyone who really moves the needle, just an average dude to make 1.5M and pot 20-25 points over a year while not being a tire fire defensively, and we probably don't feel as much of a need to bring Cleary back again and again.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Define "wasted". Because Iliches like to spend to the cap, who in 2012 could they have used that cap space on but couldn't because they "wasted" it?

If I remember correctly, those contracts road blocked nothing. That's what I mean when people complain about contracts that have no bearing on the outcome. The "cap hell" is overblown. It did not stop them from offering the best FA they put a bid in, Ryan Suter, to a mega-million dollar contract. There's been nobody the "cap hell" stopped them from bidding on.

How Detroit spends their money makes no difference to me. What they need more than anything right now is keeping their top round draft picks and drafting well. Last draft Red Wings drafted more prospects than they have in over 20 years... when the draft use to go to 9 rounds instead of 7 it is now.

Wings are stocking up on picks and drafting. And, in my opinion, Wings drafting has gotten dramatically better since Jim Nill left the organization. There's a few kids I'm really excited about. But the jury is still out.

The NHL changing the rules is definitely why Holland had to lock up marginal players to crippling contracts. The NHL changing the rules is definitely why Holland never trades roster players, and when he does make trades, they are bad trades that are ridiculed by other fanbases. The NHL changing the rules is why Ken Holland barely drafted any meaningful defensemen from 2005-2010 on the cusp of an aging generational talent. It was the NHL that made Ken Holland trade Datsyuk's contract only to waste that open cap space on more marginal talent.

It's all the league's fault!!!!


There's a reason why Red Wings fans have a certain type of reputation across the league.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The NHL changing the rules is definitely why Holland had to lock up marginal players to crippling contracts. The NHL changing the rules is definitely why Holland never trades roster players, and when he does make trades, they are bad trades that are ridiculed by other fanbases. The NHL changing the rules is why Ken Holland barely drafted any meaningful defensemen from 2005-2010 on the cusp of an aging generational talent. It was the NHL that made Ken Holland trade Datsyuk's contract only to waste that open cap space on more marginal talent.

It's all the league's fault!!!!


There's a reason why Red Wings fans have a certain type of reputation across the league.

And it is a little of column A and a little of column B.

Overly critical and overly entited on one end and "it's never their fault" on the other.

That being said, I couldn't give a flying **** what some dude in Buffalo thinks about me as a fan or about my team as a whole. The opinion of some bender in Toronto or some "lifelong hockey fan" in LA is completely meaningless.

E: And no, the rule changes are not why Detroit has made the mistakes they've made. However, to insinuate that they have nothing to do with the team's willingness and ability to make trades is simply not correct. And trading Datsyuk's contract was made prior to the team knowing that Stamkos wouldn't meet them. You can say "oh, well they shouldn't have done it then... but if Stamkos would meet them and they decided to eat Datsyuk's contract and couldn't pay him... oh my lord, the crying that would have gone on here.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

The decline and fall of the Red Wings isn't on Ken Holland... it's on the NHL for changing the rules.

The NHL is designed for ALL teams to decline and fall after their 1st overall drafted players/core age and decline. It's going to happen to Chicago, Pittsburgh, then Oilers, TMLs... all will rise and fall. That's the design of the NHL.

We see less blockbuster trades, less GM creativity, less exciting FA frenzy, less exciting trade deadline moves.

The most entertaining part of the nu:NHL is teams signing mistakes for a $100 million only for them to run off to the KHL.

As far as Ken Holland goes, when putting the actual circumstances in context, the NHL stacked the decked for the sole purpose Red Wings would fall. The conundrum is fans, who pay nothing, sit in their favorite lazy-e-boy and post on random hockey forums and blogs to talk about how they would do things, and their way is the only right way, while disregarding the actual $$ and politics from the factor.

NHL zapped front loaded contracts and it hurt the Wings for legally signing contracts they are now being punishing for.

Two points

1. If the league changed the rules wasn't it up to Holland to immediately change his operandi accordingly to remain ahead of the curve?

2. If for one reason or another he couldn't or wouldn't change, isn't it for those very reasons the author is suggesting that contributed to the downfall?

 

[Frk It]

but if Stamkos would meet them and they decided to eat Datsyuk's contract and couldn't pay him... oh my lord, the crying that would have gone on here.

Wouldn't have happened. Dekeyser didn't sign until July 26th, and Mrazek until August 11th. We would have had enough cap space to sign Stamkos on July 1st and not exceed the cap by more than 10%, and would have had a month (or could have waited longer) to figure out how to shed enough cap space to sign those RFA's... once we actually knew we needed to.

This is part of why that was so frustrating to me.

 

[Dotter]

I think Sammy/Tootoo/Coliacavo is a pretty solid way of defining waste. Add Bertuzzi to it as well.

Again, I don't follow the logic. Instead of Ilitches' pocketing the cash of those players wages and filling their roles with the likes of Cory Emmerton and [insert bust prospects here]. Instead the Ilitch family decided to give their loyal fans moments like this:



So you'd rather watch bust nobody prospects play during the end of Lidstrom and Datsyuk's career? Or the goose bumps you get when you hear the "Todd Bertuzzi" chants?

It's not cup or bust for me. I am a hockey fan so therefore I pick the latter.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Again, I don't follow the logic. Instead of Ilitches' pocketing the cash of those players wages and filling their roles with the likes of Cory Emmerton and [insert bust prospects here]. Instead the Ilitch family decided to give their loyal fans moments like this:



So you'd rather watch bust nobody prospects play during the end of Lidstrom and Datsyuk's career? Or the goose bumps you get when you hear the "Todd Bertuzzi" chants?

It's not cup or bust for me. I am a hockey fan so therefore I pick the latter.

I didn't mention Bertuzzi at all. Cola, Sammy, and Tootoo did nothing, provided nothing, and got paid a decent amount to do so.

I'm saying that those three were 7.4M pissed down the sewer drain that could have been used on literally anything else and gotten a better return. Hell, the only reason I remember that we even signed Colaiacovo is the rampant posting of that St. Louis Blues gif after we did. He was nothing in entertainment, in future success, in anything. He was Ken Holland lighting a match to 1.67M of Mike Illitch's money. (the 2/3rds buyout).

Sammy actively ****ed us by eating 3M and refusing to be bought out or go on LTIR or even retire. Again, I'm not measuring by "Cup or tank". I'm saying that 7.4M of the cap went to worthless ****. People want to jump on Howard or Ericsson or whatever... but those guys actually produce something for the amount of money they're paid. The 2012 FA crew produced nothing and were a predecessor of the "Oh god, we have millions upon millions of cash, we need to use it on whoever is out there" years that people complain about.

 

[Red Stanley]

Dear UrinatingTree, as far as hyperbolic accuracy is concerned you completely missed the mark. Spend less time on youtube sounding like a total dbag and go read a book instead so you may learn what happens to actual empires that fall. Cheers and may whatever god you worship bless you.

 

[Dotter]

Two points

1. If the league changed the rules wasn't it up to Holland to immediately change his operandi accordingly to remain ahead of the curve?

2. If for one reason or another he couldn't or wouldn't change, isn't it for those very reasons the author is suggesting that contributed to the downfall?

Buy the team and you can make those decisions. But what's good for you wasn't good for ownership as Mike Ilitch's health was deteriorating and Wings playoff streak was very important to him and to his family. Add in the brand new billion dollar arena -- plus the politics that surround it, the timing of making drastic changes wasn't right for the people who actually flip the bill and own the team.

I might agree with you if:

1. Mike Ilitch's health wasn't falling

2. Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg's careers weren't near the end of their prime

3. Wings playoff streak wasn't at jeopardy

4. The Ilitch family didn't work so hard to rally the city for a brand new arena and there's a lot on the line

In the grand scheme of the reality of the Red Wings organization, your (and a handful of other people's) feelings on the matter is insignificant and moot. So I get why you're mad.

But if you have reasonable expectations and understand it wasn't going to last forever, you won't suffer. The cost of the playoff streak, having a good owner who didn't deserve to see the playoff streak end, and having a brand new state of the arena costs us. It cost us a period of hardship. It's not going to be 5 years to rebuild. It's going to take 10 years if they get lucky. But the new NHL rule changes also makes it more difficult. Tanking isn't a guarantee. Hell, it took the Oilers like 20 years and they still suck. Albeit, they might turn it around with McDavid, but I'm still not stupid enough to bet on them.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

The decline and fall of the Red Wings isn't on Ken Holland... it's on the NHL for changing the rules.

The NHL is designed for ALL teams to decline and fall after their 1st overall drafted players/core age and decline. It's going to happen to Chicago, Pittsburgh, then Oilers, TMLs... all will rise and fall. That's the design of the NHL.

We see less blockbuster trades, less GM creativity, less exciting FA frenzy, less exciting trade deadline moves.

The most entertaining part of the nu:NHL is teams signing mistakes for a $100 million only for them to run off to the KHL.

As far as Ken Holland goes, when putting the actual circumstances in context, the NHL stacked the decked for the sole purpose Red Wings would fall. The conundrum is fans, who pay nothing, sit in their favorite lazy-e-boy and post on random hockey forums and blogs to talk about how they would do things, and their way is the only right way, while disregarding the actual $$ and politics from the factor.

NHL zapped front loaded contracts and it hurt the Wings for legally signing contracts they are now being punishing for.

You think that's why we suck now?!?!

Yes it may be a factor. But how about the **** poor drafting? I mean I like guys like smith and Sheahan but we can't be missing on first round picks or second or third.

After we got lucky with z and dat who have we discovered? I mean I guess the third liners tatar and nyquist can count?

We have some guys that will be good that we have drafted in the last couple of years. But there's a ten year stretch where the drafting was awful.

 

[Dotter]

You think that's why we suck now?!?!

Yes it may be a factor. But how about the **** poor drafting? I mean I like guys like smith and Sheahan but we can't be missing on first round picks or second or third.

After we got lucky with z and dat who have we discovered? I mean I guess the third liners tatar and nyquist can count?

We have some guys that will be good that we have drafted in the last couple of years. But there's a ten year stretch where the drafting was awful.

Jim Nill is gone. Hakan Andersson hasn't done much either, but I am sure you don't want to fire him.

Drafting has been a problem. But I feel like the black cloud left with Jim Nill.

 

[jkutswings]

Jim Nill is gone. Hakan Andersson hasn't done much either, but I am sure you don't want to fire him.

Drafting has been a problem. But I feel like the black cloud left with Jim Nill.

Except that they haven't drafted a single core player since he left, either.

 

[Frk It]

Jim Nill is gone. Hakan Andersson hasn't done much either, but I am sure you don't want to fire him.

Drafting has been a problem. But I feel like the black cloud left with Jim Nill.

Or maybe you should consider putting some accountability on the GM who employs these various guys and also has a part in the pick selection himself.

 

[Henkka]

Jim Nill is gone. Hakan Andersson hasn't done much either, but I am sure you don't want to fire him.

Drafting has been a problem. But I feel like the black cloud left with Jim Nill.

Just by looking in the past, you can see that on Jim Nill -era our North American drafting was most abysmal it has ever been. Overall drafting was good, because Andersson was getting gems from Europe.

But with other scouting director eras, Like Devellano's, Holland's, and McDonnel's we were getting something also from North America. Wright has also been more promising on NA area, but our European drafting has suffered since 2010 draft. Hope they get it fixed on both areas.

In my opinion, North America is the biggest and most impactful drafting area overall, and it mostly determines the main scouting group and directors leadership for player analyzes overall. You have to know the guys on your near areas, just have to. Or you will get fired.

When Jim Nill drafted Julius Honka at 2014 14th overall, and his backyard boy Dylan Larkin was still there, it was the first signal of our former guys abilities.