Confirmed Signing with Link: [TBL] Kucherov re-signs with the Lightning (8 years, $9.5M AAV)

[KnightofBoston]

Let's be real, we have a serious Golden State Warriors thing going on in Tampa right now.

Bad for the sport, good for them though. Can't fault them for taking advantage of what's available to them as far as taxes go.

Hockey’s a different sport though, teams like Tampa can still lose in second/third rounds

But if they get Karlsson they HAVE to win the cup right? I’d imagine at that point.

 

[Red Piller]

I live in Edmonton and it's beautiful during the summer when hockey isn't played

Nobody believes that.

 

[Seanaconda]

Nobody believes that.

People use our city as their skyline picture but it's cold as balls during the winter I won't lie no water so not much snow the past decade

 

[MLSE]

You seem like an intelligent individual. Im sure you can go some google searches on how theres a state sales tax, and then each local county can charge their own sales tax on top of that. Theres also tourism taxes for buildings and parks that were likely partially funded by taxes, or how they lead the nation in roads wilth tolls...you know, taxes that just arent called taxes.

Intelligent (I understand the sarcasm but hey I can't lie, I'm fairly smart) as I am lazy to do the FULL math I still think there's an advantage but I'm willing to concede.

You do raise a decent point so I'd like to know more before I continue to comment.

 

[triggrman]

Again, you are taxed in the city you play the game in. Tampa plays 41 games away Tampa, and 41 times a year players from other teams play in Tampa and are not charged an income tax.

I also don't understand the math behind how an at most 9% income tax for half the games gives a player 20% less money. What ever advantage is gained is paid through other taxes like toll roads and high sales taxes.

And our Canadian friends do understand we all still pay federal income tax here in the USA right

 

[LightningStrikes]

Taxes might play a role here but most importantly Vinik and Yzerman have built a great hockey organization here in Tampa. Our previous group of owners and managers have almost made a future of a hockey club in Tampa impossible. But Vinik hired Yzerman who in turn hired a great group of managers, scouts, coaches, trainers. Vinik keeps flooding money into the arena, the surrounding area and into the community. Yzerman is able to spend to the max of the salary cap and does a brilliant job in juggling budget, contracts, roster space and depth.

Players have repeadedly signed below-market contracts with Tampa during Yzerman's tenure (Stamkos, Hedman are just the biggest names on a long list) and others of declined better offers from other teams in order to play here. I'm convinced that's the biggest incentive we currently have for players to sign in Tampa and stay there. Yzerman gave players a chance that have been turned down elsewhere (Marchessault anyone?) and gives his team the best possible chance in order to compete for the Cup by assembling a strong group of players and prospects, be it via trade, signings or crisp drafting. Players notice and want to be (or stay) here. Kucherov is but one of many.

 

[North Cole]

Again, you are taxed in the city you play the game in. Tampa plays 41 games away Tampa, and 41 times a year players from other teams play in Tampa and are not charged an income tax.

I also don't understand the math behind how an at most 9% income tax for half the games gives a player 20% less money. What ever advantage is gained is paid through other taxes like toll roads and high sales taxes.

And our Canadian friends do understand we all still pay federal income tax here in the USA right

Don't most cities collect tax via property tax etc. I can't think of any Canadian cities that collect an income tax.

There is also a fairly extensive tax treaty in place (us-can), so it doesn't seem very likely to me that players from 32 teams are flying around every couple of days accruing taxes in 32 cities. The employer is a resident of a city. The employee is a resident of the same city (most likely), travelling for work does not mean they are paid in the city they travel to...unless for some reason the home team is paying away players. If your company pays you to travel for a conference, you don't pay tax where the conference is...do you?

 

[JoVel]

Pretty normal response for a fan of their team. Girardi and Coburn having one year left actually makes them both straight up cap dumps where you would have to unload a draft pick to get relief for 1 year. JT Miller just extended and teams don't normally trade players like that because it will get them a bad rep. Johnson has value, but Palat is slightly overpaid. I still think you can get value for him. Stralman won't net much he's on the wrong side of his contract at this point at 31 years old. The way I am looking at it you've only got two names you can trade outright and have a good hockey trade, the others are all cap dumps and are going to cost you assets to get rid of them.

Girardi and Coburn are decent bottom pairing defensemen. Some contenders will gladly take them as rentals at a low price, we don't have to give up picks to get rid of them. As for Palat I don't see how he's overpaid. A good rule of thumb is one million for 10 points, and Palat matches that pretty nicely and he's great defensively on top of that. Strålman is getting older but that contract won't cause you any trouble and most contenders would kill to have him as a 3/4D.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Girardi and Coburn are decent bottom pairing defensemen. Some contenders will gladly take them as rentals at a low price, we don't have to give up picks to get rid of them. As for Palat I don't see how he's overpaid. A good rule of thumb is one million for 10 points, and Palat matches that pretty nicely and he's great defensively on top of that. Strålman is getting older but that contract won't cause you any trouble and most contenders would kill to have him as a 3/4D.

Actually I'll give you Stralman along with Johnson and Palat as players that carry some value. Helps that Stralman is only signed until 19-20. I stand by what I said on the others though...

I don't know why you are talking about Girardi and Coburn as rentals for contenders. Why the heck would you be selling at the deadline with your team, not to mention this whole conversation is in regards to making room for EK, not deadline deals. Not even sure why you even brought that up?

 

[Starat327]

Intelligent (I understand the sarcasm but hey I can't lie, I'm fairly smart) as I am lazy to do the FULL math I still think there's an advantage but I'm willing to concede.

You do raise a decent point so I'd like to know more before I continue to comment.

No sarcasm was intended. You weren't degrading the argument at all, and I only know what little I do know about how Floridians pay for the state by word of a few friends who live down there and looking a few things up on Google myself. States have to be funded somehow and that money is always going to come from its citizens, be it in the form of income tax, or tell roads, sales tax, property tax, etc.

I fully acknowledge that there may be a slight 'advantage' in Tampa due to taxes (keep in mind, they only play 41 games at home +games against Panthers, so it's not like their entire season is income tax free). But I stick by the assertion that said advantage is offset by any money bigger market teams can offer outside of the salary cap in endorsement deals.

The salary cap is intended to limit what a team can spend. It does that today. Can Tamps maybe get more by offering players 'more' take home pay? Maybe. Can Montreal offer a player a lower AAV and an endorsement contract to be the face of their new beer, providing them with supplemental income that they are earning because they're an NHL player in their city? Maybe.

 

[triggrman]

Don't most cities collect tax via property tax etc. I can't think of any Canadian cities that collect an income tax.

There is also a fairly extensive tax treaty in place (us-can), so it doesn't seem very likely to me that players from 32 teams are flying around every couple of days accruing taxes in 32 cities. The employer is a resident of a city. The employee is a resident of the same city (most likely), travelling for work does not mean they are paid in the city they travel to...unless for some reason the home team is paying away players. If your company pays you to travel for a conference, you don't pay tax where the conference is...do you?

You pay income tax where the work is performed, not where you live, so no. All pro athletes have to pay the tax of where ever they earn the money not just where the home office is.

 

[ijuka]

Don't most cities collect tax via property tax etc. I can't think of any Canadian cities that collect an income tax.

There is also a fairly extensive tax treaty in place (us-can), so it doesn't seem very likely to me that players from 32 teams are flying around every couple of days accruing taxes in 32 cities. The employer is a resident of a city. The employee is a resident of the same city (most likely), travelling for work does not mean they are paid in the city they travel to...unless for some reason the home team is paying away players. If your company pays you to travel for a conference, you don't pay tax where the conference is...do you?

They do. And the cap would need to be calculated every time after a new schedule is made so it's known how many times which team plays where. It'd be a disaster to organize so it obviously will never happen.

 

[JoVel]

I don't know why you are talking about Girardi and Coburn as rentals for contenders. Why the heck would you be selling at the deadline with your team, not to mention this whole conversation is in regards to making room for EK, not deadline deals. Not even sure why you even brought that up?

Perhaps that was wrong term to use but I meant to trade them now for a pick or whatever to some team for one year. There would be no risk at all to trade for Girari/Coburn as they have only one year left and they could be useful to teams who are looking for bottom pairing defensemen. They wouldn't really bring back any value but we wouldn't have to add either. And if we were to trade them the point wouldn't to get value back, it would be to get some cap space.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Nobody believes that.

The weather is Edmonton is fantastic in the summer, nice hot sunny days with no humidity, not like our hot humid summers on the East coast where you wanna die.

 

[ThunderAlleyNomad]

He has a job because he is one of the best coaches in the league. They lost in 7 games to the SC champions. That's not an underachieving performance.

No. They underachieved. Big time. Debate on whether it's on Cooper or not, but when the highest scoring team doesn't score for almost 3 games, that's underachieving.

Taking nothing away from the Caps, they played the Lightning much better than I thought possible, and Holtby was insane, but still. Almost 3 games, no goals.

 

[VinikToWinIt]

You do realize that all of these issues could cause issues for a hard cap system to right? Didnt stopnthe league from putting one in. The NHL gives teams their cap numbers for the next year in June teams sign long term contracts for 8 years without knowing what the cap could be. Anything can happen

Teams base their caps 8 years in advance based on hockey related revenue. They are a ton more volitile than long standing taxes.

The nhl can figure out escrow. Hockey related revenues billion dollar revenues and taxes for an international corporation with 31 franchises where they all operate under different rules.

Yep. I think they could figure it out.

What are you talking about? With a set cap on salary, all teams are equally affected by the fluctuations of one factor: the cap. Contract standards are set, and re-adjusted incrementally with cap changes. The cap has been far more predictable than tax codes, and is not regionally adjusted.

 

[Critical13]

Taxes might play a role here but most importantly Vinik and Yzerman have built a great hockey organization here in Tampa. Our previous group of owners and managers have almost made a future of a hockey club in Tampa impossible. But Vinik hired Yzerman who in turn hired a great group of managers, scouts, coaches, trainers. Vinik keeps flooding money into the arena, the surrounding area and into the community. Yzerman is able to spend to the max of the salary cap and does a brilliant job in juggling budget, contracts, roster space and depth.

Players have repeadedly signed below-market contracts with Tampa during Yzerman's tenure (Stamkos, Hedman are just the biggest names on a long list) and others of declined better offers from other teams in order to play here. I'm convinced that's the biggest incentive we currently have for players to sign in Tampa and stay there. Yzerman gave players a chance that have been turned down elsewhere (Marchessault anyone?) and gives his team the best possible chance in order to compete for the Cup by assembling a strong group of players and prospects, be it via trade, signings or crisp drafting. Players notice and want to be (or stay) here. Kucherov is but one of many.

The cult of Yzerman is a very real deal, isn't it?

From an outside perspective, it looks like he's built a strong organization, but he did inherit some real talent, and I've yet to seen the organization take their success to the next level.

Is the culture the reason these players have taken lower contracts? I would imagine that plays a roll, just like taxes do. They are also going through the peak moments in the career's of their 1st and 2nd overall picks, and they were able to trade their 3rd overall for another good defenceman. It's not like he's done it with garbage assets - 14th overall (undecided), 27th overall (undecided), 19th overall (poor), 3rd overall (poor), 10th overall (poor) + 19th overall (great), 27th overall (poor), 6th overall (awful). He's missed a lot on early picks, but having Hedman and Stamkos in the organization, and hitting on a couple later picks makes that much more palatable.

 

[Legion34]

What are you talking about? With a set cap on salary, all teams are equally affected by the fluctuations of one factor: the cap. Contract standards are set, and re-adjusted incrementally with cap changes. The cap has been far more predictable than tax codes, and is not regionally adjusted.

What I am saying is that the cap each year is based on all HRR for the previous year. The league can calculate all HRR including ticket sales, ad buys, tv contracts and Ovy jerseys sold in Siberia.

Teams are Able to make paper transactions to adjust the cap based on a day in the minors.

The league could figure out a regional adjustment for cap based
On net income. Whether or not they would of course is different. But to pretend it is impossible for a league to figure out a formula is ridiculous.

So one. Yes. Is a formula possible. Sure it is.

As for the second question hypotheticals about what could or would happen based on local politics is another question. Regional changes could happen. Sure. But that wouldn’t stop the cap being implemented or long term contracts. I mean. The bottom could fall out of the cap at any time theoretically. Teams have 60’million invested years down the road when there is no guarantee that the cap will be that high based on revenues.

There was already a rollback. A lockout an economic crisis, drop in cable ad ratings etc. Anything could happen. Sure.

Teams make salary commitments for 8 years when the cap is given to them on a year by year basis. Could a cap hit based on percentage of net income be figured out. Sure. It wouldn’t have to be 1:1 in terms of a 10 million in salary on Tampa being worth 10 million hit somewhere else. They could adjust the hit and leave the salary the same

We are talking thousands of miles apart on peices of plastic that we carry in our pockets.

I’m pretty sure this isn’t out of the reach of human potential

 

[Critical13]

People mad at Florida's taxes like if they made the cap somehow even people wouldn't just go live there anyways

No ones mad at Florida, people are just baffled that such an obvious advantage can exist in a framework which is supposed to promote parity (among other things). It's a nice little discount off the cap that only certain teams get.

 

[Seanaconda]

No ones mad at Florida, people are just baffled that such an obvious advantage can exist in a framework which is supposed to promote parity (among other things). It's a nice little discount off the cap that only certain teams get.

Just sign your young players long term and gamble and u get the same thing

 

[Legion34]

Taxes might play a role here but most importantly Vinik and Yzerman have built a great hockey organization here in Tampa. Our previous group of owners and managers have almost made a future of a hockey club in Tampa impossible. But Vinik hired Yzerman who in turn hired a great group of managers, scouts, coaches, trainers. Vinik keeps flooding money into the arena, the surrounding area and into the community. Yzerman is able to spend to the max of the salary cap and does a brilliant job in juggling budget, contracts, roster space and depth.

Players have repeadedly signed below-market contracts with Tampa during Yzerman's tenure (Stamkos, Hedman are just the biggest names on a long list) and others of declined better offers from other teams in order to play here. I'm convinced that's the biggest incentive we currently have for players to sign in Tampa and stay there. Yzerman gave players a chance that have been turned down elsewhere (Marchessault anyone?) and gives his team the best possible chance in order to compete for the Cup by assembling a strong group of players and prospects, be it via trade, signings or crisp drafting. Players notice and want to be (or stay) here. Kucherov is but one of many.

I don’t think anyone worth listening to is saying otherwise.

Tampa has done an amazing job. They have drafted well, competed hard and made solid trades. No tax advantage in the world affects their ability to pick up top line talent in later rounds of the draft.

First class organization top to bottom. No question. No tax advantage makes up for the lifestyle differences for players and their families like living on the beach in the winter. No question. A winning team will be able to attract FA.

The issue is the principle. Large market teams were completely neutered in terms of their big advantage. Which is fine and needs to happen. But if we are going to do this it has to be fair in the way that the league chooses to restrict a free market system to create fairness. That’s all.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

What a great deal for the bolts, good for them (and Kucherov). 9.5 for what should be a perennial top 5 player moving forward. Makes the Tavares signing look pretty bad in comparison as Kucherov is younger and better. This should help the bolts remain competitive for the next 8 years as the cap rises and this deal looks better and better. Kind of like how the pens have been sitting pretty with Crosby at 8.7 and Malkin at 9.5.

 

[MLSE]

As a Toronto fan, I know we have benefits from signing here but how about someone like Detroit where if their not doing well, a large portion of their fans dont care for them and they still spend to live in a nicer area of Michigan along with state tax?

Montreal, Toronto.. yeah the fans are crazy and the endorsements will come.

Again for sensitive fans, I am not harping the lightning for doing what their allowed to do and using it correctly.

Edit: weird it says the red wings sell out but I am from Windsor and they have quite a few empty seats. Would Colorado, Arizona, Islanders be a good example? Its just a general comment that some cities with state tax (i believe those 3, may be wrong) but not having crazy fans that allow you large endorsement opportunities.

 

[Legion34]

You pay income tax where the work is performed, not where you live, so no. All pro athletes have to pay the tax of where ever they earn the money not just where the home office is.

If you sign a 10 million signing bonus then that would be taxed where?

 

[DFC]

If you sign a 10 million signing bonus then that would be taxed where?

I think Stamkos's was a loooot bigger than that, even. If I'm not mistaken, he gets like $1m/year in base salary, so the rest isn't taxed.

It's a real advantage TB has in signing players. Just as real is the disadvantage we have when it comes time to move players, because they don't want to leave.