Speculation: Taylor Hall for Seth Jones

[ThirdManIn]

Whether Nuge was offered for Jones one thing we can all be quite sure of,Nuge would never have gotten Jones and since Nashville was looking for a center i can't see them accepting Hall for him either.

We probably will never know if he was offered or not, but I can say with confidence that Poile was looking for someone with more offensive upside than RNH. He found a guy in Johansen who not only brought more offense, but also brought more size and was only a year older. RNH has a better two-way game, and is just shy of a year younger than Joey. Assuming RNH was offered, those two things weren't enough to sway Poile (it could also help that Columbus is in the East and won't be competing with Nashville for playoff spots in the future, whereas Edmonton, especially with McDavid and with Jones if that trade were made, could definitely be).

To say Nuge alone would never have gotten Jones is a bit much. I don't think Nuge alone would get Jones last season even if Joey were off the table. I think this summer, considering the Subban trade, that is a different story. If Nuge were the best center available it very well could have happened, though I do think Poile would have been looking for an addition of some sort to balance things out.

 

[ManofSteel55]

I never said they never offered Nuge for Jones.
I'm saying that Jones value >>Nuge.

Value doesn't even matter considering Nashville wanted size and skill. Nuge only has 1 of those.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

I never said they never offered Nuge for Jones.
I'm saying that Jones value >>Nuge.

Except actual NHL scouts and GMs voted in favor of RNH over RyJo...you know the guy that actually got traded straight up for Seth Jones. Nashville might not have accepted but to say the value isn't close is wrong.

 

[Crede777]

I don't think Jones was on the block at any point. I think Columbus and Nashville were quite far along in discussions when Jones became available. And when he did, the deal got done with very little time in between.

 

[Highmarker]

I never said they never offered Nuge for Jones.
I'm saying that Jones value >>Nuge.

I think if Columbus didn't offer up Johansen a Nuge for Jones trade could have happened. If a team needs to desperately fill a need they'll overpay Nuge is also a pretty good player it wouldn't have been that lopsided.

 

[The Nuge]

I never said they never offered Nuge for Jones.
I'm saying that Jones value >>Nuge.

Given actual NHL executives ranked Nuge ahead of RyJo, we know that isn't true.

I agree with those saying it didn't make sense. He proved he can't play center, and Nashville wanted a centerman. Him being better than RyJo doesn't mean he was the more appealing choice, even if he was offered (which we can be fairly certain that he wasn't)

 

[Monk]

Given actual NHL executives ranked Nuge ahead of RyJo, we know that isn't true.

I wonder if they still do...

 

[Viqsi]

Oh glory, here we go again. "No really, guys, RNH was totally better and more valuable than Johansen! Bob Stauffer said a bunch of NHL execs said it so it's TOTALLY true! We didn't miss out at all! Everyone is still awesome!"

One would have thought the Larsson trade would have finally put an end to that silliness.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Oh glory, here we go again. "No really, guys, RNH was totally better and more valuable than Johansen! Bob Stauffer said a bunch of NHL execs said it so it's TOTALLY true! We didn't miss out at all! Everyone is still awesome!"

One would have thought the Larsson trade would have finally put an end to that silliness.

More hyperbole, great. Nobody is saying that Nuge is better or more valuable. We are saying that the value isn't as far apart as some are suggesting.

As per the Larsson trade, we got a proven top pair defenseman. Long term, I think we'll be happy with moving Hall for Larsson instead of moving Nuge for Jones.

 

[Group Chat Legend*]

But I assume Seth had more value league wide then Larsson did.

Jones for Hall is fairly lateral imo, where as Lars for Hall is a talent win for NJ.

Except for Larsson being better than Jones

 

[UnicornONtheCOBB]

Except for Larsson being better than Jones

Jones has talent and skill for sure. He looked better, and was a better fit in the 2nd half of the season with CBJ, than he did with Nashville. People forget that he was struggling with Nashville, the talent was there, but the results were not. He was playing behind 4 guys in Nashville, Weber, Josi, Ellis, Ekholm, all 4 had passed Jones. But in Columbus, Jones and his role and his game all stepped up. He's a really good fit with CBJ.

 

[monkeywrench]

Oh glory, here we go again. "No really, guys, RNH was totally better and more valuable than Johansen! Bob Stauffer said a bunch of NHL execs said it so it's TOTALLY true! We didn't miss out at all! Everyone is still awesome!"

One would have thought the Larsson trade would have finally put an end to that silliness.

Pretty sure it was Spector that said it. He is more credible. And for Hall they got a young dman that played top pair last year and still has some untapped offensive potential. Whether he adds the offense to his game is still to be discovered.

 

[Lateralous]

to be fair, NJD also needed a 1C.

Totally different situation. Nashville is a team that had elite talent throughout the roster and was really a 1C away from being a serious contender. NJ is in the middle of a rebuild so positional needs are less important at the moment in the context that in the Hall v Larsson trade, they were exploiting Edmonton's desperate need for a top pairing D to get what is generally considered the better player.

 

[Viqsi]

Pretty sure it was Spector that said it. He is more credible. And for Hall they got a young dman that played top pair last year and still has some untapped offensive potential. Whether he adds the offense to his game is still to be discovered.

Spector was the one who confirmed that RNH was offered for Jones - which, of course, a handful of Oil fans continue to this day to vociferously deny ever happened. I don't believe he was the one who suggested the "srsly guize RNH is so much better NHL execs said so" thing.

EDIT: Double-checked, and he mentioned the informal poll in the article in which that was confirmed. So my bad, I'm misremembering why that was such an absurd argument - it's not necessarily the source, it's the sample size, methodology, and results margin. Oops?

 

[deckercky]

Except for Larsson being better than Jones

Short term, for sure. But what has more value - a very good #2 defenceman who doesn't seem like he'll take the steps to be a #1, or a #3 with all the tools and a good chance to develop into a #1? I think some teams take Larsson, and some teams take Jones. Larsson is probably a better fit for Edmonton, but if Jones takes the next step, he'll be a much better player.

Not saying Larsson couldn't take a further step (carefully worded it to avoid saying that), but it seems like he's pretty close to the player he'll be, while Jones is still developing noticeably.

 

[monkeywrench]

Spector was the one who confirmed that RNH was offered for Jones - which, of course, a handful of Oil fans continue to this day to vociferously deny ever happened. I don't believe he was the one who suggested the "srsly guize RNH is so much better NHL execs said so" thing.

EDIT: Double-checked, and he mentioned the informal poll in the article in which that was confirmed. So my bad, I'm misremembering why that was such an absurd argument - it's not necessarily the source, it's the sample size, methodology, and results margin. Oops?

If Spector, was the one that said, RNH, was offered I would tend to believe him, over Lebrun. Spector is pretty tight with the Oilers organization, regardless of what the Oilers fans say. It's a poll they are not all 100% accurate, but it was decent sample size of the league. Almost 33% of the GMs, if I remember correctly. It could've changed if all 30 was polled. I think this will be the real year for nuge and RJ. To tell what they truly are. Both have question marks.

 

[Group Chat Legend*]

Short term, for sure. But what has more value - a very good #2 defenceman who doesn't seem like he'll take the steps to be a #1, or a #3 with all the tools and a good chance to develop into a #1? I think some teams take Larsson, and some teams take Jones. Larsson is probably a better fit for Edmonton, but if Jones takes the next step, he'll be a much better player.

Not saying Larsson couldn't take a further step (carefully worded it to avoid saying that), but it seems like he's pretty close to the player he'll be, while Jones is still developing noticeably.

Curious how you can tell that Larsson is done growing but Jones has plenty of room?

 

[triggrman]

If Spector, was the one that said, RNH, was offered I would tend to believe him, over Lebrun. Spector is pretty tight with the Oilers organization, regardless of what the Oilers fans say. It's a poll they are not all 100% accurate, but it was decent sample size of the league. Almost 33% of the GMs, if I remember correctly. It could've changed if all 30 was polled. I think this will be the real year for nuge and RJ. To tell what they truly are. Both have question marks.

From that article?

We conducted an informal, anonymous poll among a dozen NHL scouts, analysts and front office types on Friday, asking the simple question: “You can only have one of Nugent-Hopkins or Johansen. Which one would you choose?†(No employees of the Predators, Oilers or Blue Jackets were included in the poll.)

By deadline, nine had cast their vote. The result: Nugent-Hopkins 5, Johansen 4.

It’s not in any way scientific. But it does show how close the value of the two players is among objective eyes in the game. The hardest part is youth. At 22, how much better could Nugent-Hopkins be in a couple of years?

And the same goes for Johansen.

 

[triggrman]

I actually didn't realize the stats were that close until I checked after reading that article.

Ryan Johansen's slow start keeps it close, when looking at just the last 3 seasons, RJ's numbers are much better.

 

[Viqsi]

t's a poll they are not all 100% accurate, but it was decent sample size of the league. Almost 33% of the GMs, if I remember correctly.

You could just read the article:

We conducted an informal, anonymous poll among a dozen NHL scouts, analysts and front office types

That significantly expands the potential population from "thirty" to "several hundred at least".

 

[go4hockey]

A few months prior to all of the trades, it was rumoured that EDM was offering Ryan Nugent-Hopkins for Seth Jones. This was shot down quickly though, since there was not enough value on EDM's side.

Given the recent trades, do you think Taylor Hall was ever offered for Jones straight up? And if so, would that have been enough?

Does not matter if he was offered or not as Nashville was known to be looking for a #1 center for Jones.

 

[monkeywrench]

You could just read the article:


That significantly expands the potential population from "thirty" to "several hundred at least".

My bad, made a mistake on information, just like someone else did earlier. Either way, they're closer than what an average HFboards user thinks. RNH gets overrated by Oilers fans and underrated by other teams fans. Everyone expects him to out up 70-90 points a season because he was drafted 1st overall. The Oilers do not need that out of him. They need him to play a solid two-way game will contributing, 50 to 60 points.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Yeah but Jones had the potential to land a 1C. NJ should be thrilled Larsson returned someone of Halls caliber

If cbj needs a 1c why get rid of johansen without trying to address that problem in that trade?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

You could just read the article:


That significantly expands the potential population from "thirty" to "several hundred at least".

I wouldnt take that article seriously, way too vague, since they dont say how many of each and they somehow interviewed a dozen and only got 9 responses. Could have been 7 analysts, 1 scout, 1 exec

 

[Viqsi]

I wouldnt take that article seriously, way too vague, since they dont say how many of each and they somehow interviewed a dozen and only got 9 responses. Could have been 7 analysts, 1 scout, 1 exec

I don't, but there was a handful of touchy Oil fans who latched onto that as though it was gospel and total justification for their sour-grapes attitude w/r/t the simultaneous heartbreak of seeing both Seth Jones and Ryan Johansen inexplicably traded to teams that weren't their own. Even after all those Hemsky-for-Johansen and later Eberle-for-Jones offers which were obviously so totally fair...

...bitter? Me? Maybe a little.

* * *​

My bad, made a mistake on information, just like someone else did earlier.

...touché.

Either way, they're closer than what an average HFboards user thinks. RNH gets overrated by Oilers fans and underrated by other teams fans. Everyone expects him to out up 70-90 points a season because he was drafted 1st overall. The Oilers do not need that out of him. They need him to play a solid two-way game will contributing, 50 to 60 points.

Fair enough, and I don't disagree (before the Hall-Larsson trade, I was suggesting that the Oilers trade Draisaitl for the D they need, as McDavid + RNH is more than sufficiently badass). I do happen to think that Joey's career is going to be better overall (based on most recent years), but, meh.