Confirmed with Link: Lefebvre relieved of his duties. Search for a new coach in Laval thread

[417]

Jean Perron, former cup winning coach.

Experience does not equal competency or quality of analysis.

This is completely irrelevant...

I never said that my opinion on the matter or Lebeau's, were final say....I never said that because he essentially reiterated what I said, that it legitimized my opinion.

I just shared an opinion, all you've done since is sit there and act righteous like your word is bond.

You're right - experience does not equal competency or quality of analysis.

Clearly, you're the only person qualified to provide that.

 

[417]

He outlasted Therrien...

Just think about how much further we'd be ahead if we hadn't hired either one of them.

Jared Tinordi would be a multiple Norris winning Dman no doubt.

 

[dcyhabs]

What bugs me is the number of players who looked ready for the NHL early and then faded. Hudon had similar stats over 3 years, but Tinordi looked good his first year and got worse. OK, maybe the game changed away from his strengths. Leblanc looked good, then faded. OK, he was hurt. McCarron looked good, then got worse over several years, OK, dunno about this one. JDLR? Scherbak? Audette is not a high enough end prospect, but Andrighetto should have had a few more chances based on his stats. Beaulieu didn't learn what he needed to but he had issues. Morgan Ellis was benched for scrubs when he needed the ice time. Avtsin and Kristo were longshots but they did not go anywhere. Nygren went home.

The bottom pairing D-men were OK, Dietz and company, but I wonder if they might have been better without the AHL time, as they mostly looked better in the NHL. Lernout was a reach...

It's possible the coaching staff did all they could, but there weren't many successes.

We'll see who takes over but it is unlikely that whoever they get will play Macenauer over prospects. It's got to be better.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Right...

Feel free to continue defending terrible coaches and making posts about Jared Tinordi. I'm not wasting my time with this.

Yeah he just said the coaching wasn't relevant (how is lefebvre relevant?). How come people here always ignore what others say? You guys all see what you want to see.

 

[Lebowski]

I'm really curious about how the organization is meant to credibly assess the work of, say, Nick Carrière when his father is GM of the team.

 

[Runner77]

I'm really curious about how the organization is meant to credibly assess the work of, say, Nick Carrière when his father is GM of the team.

They don't believe in assessing credibly. They had Chuckles Larry saying he was satisfied about the coaching staff the day before they canned Lefebvre.

Optics have never been Bergevin's concern.

 

[montreal]

I moved the Subban talk to the MB thread, this isn't the thread to discuss that, this is where we can vent on Lefebvre and how much he sucks at being an AHL head coach!

Jared Tinordi would be a multiple Norris winning Dman no doubt.

no need to go so over the top, a legit discussion would be could he have turned into a decent 6th/7th stay at home type that excels on the PK, blocking shots but with no offense. It's clear if it were 10 years back he would have but the question is could he have done it the past few years in today's NHL?

I look at Lernout who is quicker, better puck skills, more offense but not as good in his own end as Tinordi. So now the question is can Lernout be a solid 6th/7th type which I'm not sure if he can or not but they are kind of in the same mold, big, physical types at least.

We'll see who takes over but it is unlikely that whoever they get will play Macenauer over prospects. It's got to be better.

I can't begin to tell you how much it drove me nuts when Lefebvre's obsession with Macenauer. Like pulling out my hair, yelling at the computer screen, what the f*** are you doing.

 

[417]

no need to go so over the top, a legit discussion would be could he have turned into a decent 6th/7th stay at home type that excels on the PK, blocking shots but with no offense. It's clear if it were 10 years back he would have but the question is could he have done it the past few years in today's NHL?

Sometimes an over the top comment, deserves an over the top reply.

The problems that plague this organization and that have for years, go FAR beyond Michel Therrien & Sylvain Lefebvre...I don't understand how anyone whose been watching the Habs for more than 5 or 6yrs, wouldn't agree with that. The problems are as much, if not more systemic, than they are the ineptness of specific individuals.

Why can't the conversation ever go deeper than beyond just names people dislike? Like how many times are we going to post over and over again that SL sucked, we all know it.

But as soon as anyone even attempts to move the discussion beyond that, they're accused of defending certain individuals.

rant on that over

I look at Lernout who is quicker, better puck skills, more offense but not as good in his own end as Tinordi. So now the question is can Lernout be a solid 6th/7th type which I'm not sure if he can or not but they are kind of in the same mold, big, physical types at least.

I think Lernout has looked better than Tinordi ever did for 'similar' type of dmen...I just don't think Tinordi processes the game quickly enough.

 

[montreal]

Sometimes an over the top comment, deserves an over the top reply.

The problems that plague this organization and that have for years, go FAR beyond Michel Therrien & Sylvain Lefebvre...I don't understand how anyone whose been watching the Habs for more than 5 or 6yrs, wouldn't agree with that. The problems are as much, if not more systemic, than they are the ineptness of specific individuals.

Why can't the conversation ever go deeper than beyond just names people dislike? Like how many times are we going to post over and over again that SL sucked, we all know it.

But as soon as anyone even attempts to move the discussion beyond that, they're accused of defending certain individuals.

rant on that over


I think Lernout has looked better than Tinordi ever did for 'similar' type of dmen...I just don't think Tinordi processes the game quickly enough.

I wasn't really following the conversation prior but that's insane to suggest that this board just blames MT and Lefebvre, I mean in all my years here I don't think I've ever seen anyone come close to the hate that MB has and I think even if he somehow got us a cup I think many around here would still hate him and for good reason. But now I think many are also putting Molson in that group of MB, MT, Lefebvre, DD as HF Habs most hated.

CJ, Timmins, and the rest of the coaching staff are likely not far behind. Timmins drafting guys like Subban, Price, Pac, etc... at least cuts him some slack to some but when you just had your 2nd worst season points wise since the team started playing more then 50 games a year, there's going to be a lot of finger pointing and rightly so. We suck and so does our farm system. We can blame whoever we want but in the end that does nothing to fix the problems.

As for Lernout, to be honest I gave up on the Habs for the first time ever. I barely watched games in the 2nd half of the season out of disgust. Lernout has appeared in 21 games, out of the ones I've seen he has looked good in some, ok in others and bad in others. Kind of like Tinordi although I saw more then twice the amount of games in the NHL. Both have had their ups and downs, Lernout seems a better fit for today's game as he has better mobility, puck moving abilities but his defensive game is troublesome at times.

 

[417]

I wasn't really following the conversation prior but that's insane to suggest that this board just blames MT and Lefebvre, I mean in all my years here I don't think I've ever seen anyone come close to the hate that MB has and I think even if he somehow got us a cup I think many around here would still hate him and for good reason. But now I think many are also putting Molson in that group of MB, MT, Lefebvre, DD as HF Habs most hated.

I wasn't accusing the entire board - I was having a conversation with a specific poster in the conversation you interjected in.

He called me out because I dared suggest the issues go far beyond just Therrien/Lefebvre.

Somehow, me posting that, meant I was defending Therrien/Lefebvre.

CJ, Timmins, and the rest of the coaching staff are likely not far behind. Timmins drafting guys like Subban, Price, Pac, etc... at least cuts him some slack to some but when you just had your 2nd worst season points wise since the team started playing more then 50 games a year, there's going to be a lot of finger pointing and rightly so. We suck and so does our farm system. We can blame whoever we want but in the end that does nothing to fix the problems.

For me, that rope has reached its limits.

Timmins came on board in 2002 IIRC...look at the Habs drafting from 2002 to 2007. Montreal Canadiens Draft History at hockeydb.com

But then look at it from 2008 to 2016...take out Gallagher & Galchenyuk from the equation, and it just doesn't look good.

What happened during this time? It can't just be Bergevin, because the slide started before he arrived.

2002 to 2007 produced the following players who are either still playing or played significant amount of games at the NHL level

Chris Higgins, Jaroslav Halak, Ryan O'Byrne, Maxime Lapierre, Andrei Kostitsyn, Mark Streit, Mikhail Grabovski, Alexei Emelin, Kyle Chipchura, Sergei Kostitsyn, Matt D'Agostini, Guillaume Latrendresse, Carey Price, Ryan White, Yannick Weber, PK Subban, Max Pacioretty and Ryan McDonagh

You can then draw a line right here... 2008 to 2016

Brendan Gallagher, Nathan Beaulieu, Charles Hudon, Alex Galchenyuk, Sven Andrighetto, Arturri Lehkonen, Jacob de la Rose, Michael McCarron, Brett Lernout, Nikita Scherbak, Noah Juulsen, Mikhail Sergachev, Victor Mete

Half of the names on this second list don't even have 100 NHL games played (I realize that in some cases, they are just starting their pro careers).

As I said earlier, take out Gallagher & Galchenyuk just for fun...that list is AWFUL for a team draft record over 8 consecutive years.

As for Lernout, to be honest I gave up on the Habs for the first time ever. I barely watched games in the 2nd half of the season out of disgust. Lernout has appeared in 21 games, out of the ones I've seen he has looked good in some, ok in others and bad in others. Kind of like Tinordi although I saw more then twice the amount of games in the NHL. Both have had their ups and downs, Lernout seems a better fit for today's game as he has better mobility, puck moving abilities but his defensive game is troublesome at times.

Juulsen got more press...but I thought Lernout was the steadier of the two.

His highs weren't as high as Juulsen, but his lows weren't as low either.

 

[montreal]

Timmins came on board in 2002 IIRC...look at the Habs drafting from 2002 to 2007. Montreal Canadiens Draft History at hockeydb.com

But then look at it from 2008 to 2016...take out Gallagher & Galchenyuk from the equation, and it just doesn't look good.

What happened during this time? It can't just be Bergevin, because the slide started before he arrived.

2002 to 2007 produced the following players who are either still playing or played significant amount of games at the NHL level

Chris Higgins, Jaroslav Halak, Ryan O'Byrne, Maxime Lapierre, Andrei Kostitsyn, Mark Streit, Mikhail Grabovski, Alexei Emelin, Kyle Chipchura, Sergei Kostitsyn, Matt D'Agostini, Guillaume Latrendresse, Carey Price, Ryan White, Yannick Weber, PK Subban, Max Pacioretty and Ryan McDonagh

You can then draw a line right here... 2008 to 2016

Brendan Gallagher, Nathan Beaulieu, Charles Hudon, Alex Galchenyuk, Sven Andrighetto, Arturri Lehkonen, Jacob de la Rose, Michael McCarron, Brett Lernout, Nikita Scherbak, Noah Juulsen, Mikhail Sergachev, Victor Mete

Half of the names on this second list don't even have 100 NHL games played (I realize that in some cases, they are just starting their pro careers).

As I said earlier, take out Gallagher & Galchenyuk just for fun...that list is AWFUL for a team draft record over 8 consecutive years.


Juulsen got more press...but I thought Lernout was the steadier of the two.

His highs weren't as high as Juulsen, but his lows weren't as low either.

Timmins came in after the '02 draft. He was still working for the Sens in '02.

I have said I would be fine if he's fired but for me he's much further down the list. Get rid of MB, Molson first and foremost. Until then I worry about any real change happening. But clearly we disagree on is the development being a bigger problem then the drafting. I just hate seeing 19/20 year olds called up when they aren't ready and I think that's a major risk/problem with the Habs.

Not saying that's the be all end all problem, as I have shared the blame between management calling them up too soon, MT/CJ not handling them well or putting them into positions, benching them for mistakes, etc..., Timmins and his staff for the mistakes like picking Beaulieu when he lacked IQ etc.. and for the players themselves along with Lefebvre as I just hated a lot of the decisions he made over the years.

Clearly things are rotten in Habsworld, we sucked hard this year, if not for playing the sabers/sens/wings we likely are last overall in the NHL and we don't have a very strong farm system and we haven't developed many players over the years. We can sit and point the finger at whoever we want but until there's a change at the top I just don't know how this gets fixed any time soon.

As for Lernout, I thought Juulsen was way better then Lernout and in the AHL it wasn't even close. He was Laval's best defensemen in his own end and maybe overall. Lernout was more average. Of course as a 1st rounder he should be better but I think his defensive game is going to be elite or close to it. He's just so smart in his own end. That's why I hated seeing him called up though, if he works on his offensive game he could be a very good #3 or 4 imo but if not without being able to put up a decent amount of points I don't know if he can be a very good 3 or 4 at least on a contending team.

 

[417]

Timmins came in after the '02 draft. He was still working for the Sens in '02.

I have said I would be fine if he's fired but for me he's much further down the list. Get rid of MB, Molson first and foremost. Until then I worry about any real change happening. But clearly we disagree on is the development being a bigger problem then the drafting. I just hate seeing 19/20 year olds called up when they aren't ready and I think that's a major risk/problem with the Habs.

Not saying that's the be all end all problem, as I have shared the blame between management calling them up too soon, MT/CJ not handling them well or putting them into positions, benching them for mistakes, etc..., Timmins and his staff for the mistakes like picking Beaulieu when he lacked IQ etc.. and for the players themselves along with Lefebvre as I just hated a lot of the decisions he made over the years.

Clearly things are rotten in Habsworld, we sucked hard this year, if not for playing the sabers/sens/wings we likely are last overall in the NHL and we don't have a very strong farm system and we haven't developed many players over the years. We can sit and point the finger at whoever we want but until there's a change at the top I just don't know how this gets fixed any time soon.

To me, I don't care about attributing more blame to one side or the other (drafting vs development)...I just think things need to change.

I don't necessarily want Timmins fired, as you said, he's accumulated enough goodwill that he can get a pass.

But it's clear to me, he doesn't have as much influence in the amateur scouting/drafting as he once did...as I highlighted, there's a clear line in the sand from 2002 to 2007 and 2008 t0 2016 (lets see how the last draft turns out, early reviews say it's a good draft by the Habs).

What happened during this time?

As for Lernout, I thought Juulsen was way better then Lernout and in the AHL it wasn't even close. He was Laval's best defensemen in his own end and maybe overall. Lernout was more average. Of course as a 1st rounder he should be better but I think his defensive game is going to be elite or close to it. He's just so smart in his own end. That's why I hated seeing him called up though, if he works on his offensive game he could be a very good #3 or 4 imo but if not without being able to put up a decent amount of points I don't know if he can be a very good 3 or 4 at least on a contending team.

Don't get me wrong...I think Juulsen is going to be the better Dman.

But I was just talking about the small sample in which we saw both this year.

 

[montreal]

To me, I don't care about attributing more blame to one side or the other (drafting vs development)...I just think things need to change.

I don't necessarily want Timmins fired, as you said, he's accumulated enough goodwill that he can get a pass.

But it's clear to me, he doesn't have as much influence in the amateur scouting/drafting as he once did...as I highlighted, there's a clear line in the sand from 2002 to 2007 and 2008 t0 2016 (lets see how the last draft turns out, early reviews say it's a good draft by the Habs).

What happened during this time?


Don't get me wrong...I think Juulsen is going to be the better Dman.

But I was just talking about the small sample in which we saw both this year.

one point i've brought up several times in the Timmins thread is about Churla, MB brought him in before the '13 draft and how much impact does he have on the draft. We just don't know other then there seems to be more of a change to draft bigger, gritty players early on then in the past. But that doesn't mean Timmins isn't at fault just that we just don't know how things go with MB, Timmins, Churla.

I have also said that when you look at '08 and since, the Habs never once in their history had less then 6 picks in a draft and yet they end up doing it 3 times since '08. Now that doesn't mean he can't make better picks then he did but when you have so few top 50 picks in the dark years of '08 to '11 it at least makes some sense on where things went wrong. I've also said he needs that '13 draft to come out looking better then it has and clearly I have voiced my concerns that things may have gotten a little better if we weren't calling these kids up too soon and if Lefebvre does a better job.

That said Timmins still made too many mistakes. Now things are looking up with the likes of Sergachev, Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak in the NHL, Poehling, Brook, Primeau and just about the entire '17 draft minus Walford looks good but it's way too soon on that front. Evans, Hawkey, Addison have at worst at least looked like they could be something for late round picks but we'll have to wait and see.

As for Juulsen/Lernout this year at least in the games I saw I would say Juulsen was a good bit better then Lernout.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Jared Tinordi would be a multiple Norris winning Dman no doubt.

Flippancy doesn’t help.

Maybe a competent AHL coach gives us the big club more polished developed Players.

Lots of things have to change throughout the organisation.

 

[417]

Flippancy doesn’t help.

One good (bad) deed....

Maybe a competent AHL coach gives us the big club more polished developed Players.

Lots of things have to change throughout the organisation.

Or maybe a competent coach can't make a player what he's not?

I have trouble believing Jarred Tinordi is in the AHL today because of SL...

I'd rather believe the game has evolved past the type of player he is.

Perhaps a better coach could have turned him into a fringe NHL'er.

Sure, OK.

But you know what could have mitigated all of this?

Not trading up for Tinordi and drafting Kuznetsov instead (yes I know, MMQB)...

 

[Deluded Puck]

One good (bad) deed....


Or maybe a competent coach can't make a player what he's not?

I have trouble believing Jarred Tinordi is in the AHL today because of SL...

I'd rather believe the game has evolved past the type of player he is.

Perhaps a better coach could have turned him into a fringe NHL'er.

Sure, OK.

But you know what could have mitigated all of this?

Not trading up for Tinordi and drafting Kuznetsov instead (yes I know, MMQB)...

I didn’t bring up Tinordi. You did, by using him outlandishly - that’s being flippant.

I’m talking about our OVERALL development, that’s means lots of different prospects. Of course Some will bust, some overachieve, some do as expected. However I think the program can do better. A lot better.

 

[417]

I didn’t bring up Tinordi. You did, by using him outlandishly - that’s being flippant.

I wasn't talking to you...you answered a post I wrote to someone.

I was obviously being sarcastic, I thought it was warranted the way he framed his post.

I’m talking about our OVERALL development, that’s means lots of different prospects. Of course Some will bust, some overachieve, some do as expected. However I think the program can do better. A lot better.

So am I

 

[Kriss E]

2008 to 2011 drafts say otherwise.

Didn't realize Timmins was scout for 3 years only.

 

[Beer and Chips]

So the gm of the farm team says the coach is doing a good job. The gm of the big club "consults" with the gm of the farm team after his statement then fires the coach of the farm team. If everyone was on the same page why was the coach fired?
|No other management changes have been made. Replacement candidates may still have ongoing seasons.
Is the farm club coach the scapegoat for the big club's failure? As of today I'd say yes.

 

[admiralcadillac]

I didn’t bring up Tinordi. You did, by using him outlandishly - that’s being flippant.

I’m talking about our OVERALL development, that’s means lots of different prospects. Of course Some will bust, some overachieve, some do as expected. However I think the program can do better. A lot better.

Who, out of the prospects that supposedly were badly developed, had enough talent to make a difference? It's both bad coaching and terrible drafting, the cupboards are really bare.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I added a poll asking who should be the next coach. I listed the names that have been mentioned by media and fans as who would possibly be good options to replace Lefebvre.

Most want more than one of them to join the organization. But the question is specifically about coach.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Who, out of the prospects that supposedly were badly developed, had enough talent to make a difference? It's both bad coaching and terrible drafting, the cupboards are really bare.

A few examples;

Hudon certainly should have made the club faster, Beaulieu had enough talent to respond to better coaching, Scherbak as well. Andrighetto is giving a decent account of himself now that .

Drafting could certainly be better, you are correct, but development has been incredibly bad. We’ve seldom been able to use our prospects as part of a trade package because their value is next to nothing (see Andrighetto).

We’re not very good at showcasing our prospects and “dressing them up”.

 

[admiralcadillac]

A few examples;

Hudon certainly should have made the club faster, Beaulieu had enough talent to respond to better coaching, Scherbak as well. Andrighetto is giving a decent account of himself now that .

Drafting could certainly be better, you are correct, but development has been incredibly bad. We’ve seldom been able to use our prospects as part of a trade package because their value is next to nothing (see Andrighetto).

We’re not very good at showcasing our prospects and “dressing them up”.

Those are a few examples but probably your only examples... Hudon made the team and looked like a rookie. Andrighetto made the team. Beaulieu sucks, and Scherbak is developing well and nothing in the AHL indicates he was treated poorly or developed poorly. Andrighetto was traded, he grew to be a decent player in the nhl.

 

[dcyhabs]

The D was respectable last year with Beaulieu and Emelin. They are both flawed but they have elite aspects to their games. Better to have flawed players than a bunch of third pairing guys.

I don't think anyone expected Tinordi to be a Norris candidate but he looked good in his first camp and got worse. It's not that he should necessarily have made the team but he should have improved.

 

[Kriss E]

But then look at it from 2008 to 2016...take out Gallagher & Galchenyuk from the equation, and it just doesn't look good.

What happened during this time? It can't just be Bergevin, because the slide started before he arrived.

Why not? I keep hearing from everyone here that it takes about 3-4 years before prospects come around.
Bergevin comes in 2012, that is right about that time, and as more years go by the more he has his fingerprints on development.
So yea, one could easily argue it's mostly on him, unless you disagree that it takes a few years just like we have no idea how the prospects of 2015-2016-2017 are really going to turn out.

All in all though, I'm not giving a pass to Timmins, he needs to be replaced as well.