Softest team in league history

[tom_servo]

Grit is just one of a few things they should improve over last year. On paper, they're certainly soft. But it would be a lot easier to prioritize if that's how they actually lost games. To be honest, I don't think last year had much to do with a lack of grit. We just sucked (and had critical injuries). Softness didn't mean a crumbling powerplay. Softness isn't why they couldn't score much on the Rangers. And as far as mental toughness, I can recall praising their calm (outside of Downie) through much of the season, including the Philly games. Didn't matter. Swept by the Flyers, outmuscled by the Caps, outskated by the Isles, war-of-attrition'd by the Rags.

If love if they added an aggressive element somehow. However, I cannot tolerate a formerly well-performing offense going directly into the toilet once again. I don't know what it was, but it's sort of an elephant in the room (...outside of HF).

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's more of a strength issue than anything else. Simmonds is 6'2" but only 183lbs - it's not like he's some gigantic bruiser crashing the net. The smallest defenseman on the roster right now is Letang (6'0" 201lbs); so there really isn't a single guy on there that shouldn't be able to handle him physically.

and yet every year he's one of the best net front guys in the league. Same with Hornqvist for us.

 

[Penguinator]

Being a net fronter isn't just about strenght or size, you gotta be able to go there & move around. Maybe more of an instinct/agility thing.

Although Chara is pretty good at it...

 

[systemsgo]

Being a net fronter isn't just about strenght or size, you gotta be able to go there & move around. Maybe more of an instinct/agility thing.

Although Chara is pretty good at it...

It's partially about strength as well, I think it's a combination as you can't be that easily muscled out, but size... not so much. Gallagher.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Who are these "oodles" of tough players?

Bickell and Seabrook accounted for almost a quarter of the Hawks hits. Between the two of them, they had a whopping 3 fights all season.

Their lineup is even smaller now without Saad and Sharp, and those two weren't exactly bruisers.

Who are these mystery tough guys you are alluding to?

I watch the Hawks play, I don't see a team easily rattled by physical play. I also see player after player either go to the opposition's net or clearing their own crease. In contrast the Pens have maybe 2 players that fit that same description.
In other words, I don't like the current makeup of the Pens Roster. Too much experience (ie, guys that don't want to the dirty work anymore or never did) and not enough youthful exuberance.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I watch the Hawks play, I don't see a team easily rattled by physical play. I also see player after player either go to the opposition's net or clearing their own crease. In contrast the Pens have maybe 2 players that fit that same description.
In other words, I don't like the current makeup of the Pens Roster. Too much experience (ie, guys that don't want to the dirty work anymore or never did) and not enough youthful exuberance.

They are definitely harder to frustrate than we are. When the Hawks get pushed around, they keep their cool and continue playing good hockey. When we get pushed around, we have a tendency to get frustrated and try to act overtly tough, which we just can't do. They seem to be much tougher mentally.

Forwards going to the net is not a problem for us. Most of our forwards can and will do it honestly. On the back end, we really do struggle at clearing our own net. Largely for a lack of anybody even trying.

 

[Penguinator]

Downie gone, frustration goes down.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Downie gone, frustration goes down.

frustration was here long before downie, but I think it can at least help with the frustration with the refs.

 

[Penguinator]

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I watch the Hawks play, I don't see a team easily rattled by physical play. I also see player after player either go to the opposition's net or clearing their own crease. In contrast the Pens have maybe 2 players that fit that same description.
In other words, I don't like the current makeup of the Pens Roster. Too much experience (ie, guys that don't want to the dirty work anymore or never did) and not enough youthful exuberance.

You are just slapping labels on the entire team and there are only three guys that fit the description you just laid out: Kunitz, Sutter and Scuds.

All of the other vets battle hard: Crosby, Malkin, Hornqvist, Dupuis, Perron, Letang and Cole.

The Hawks are one the most resilient teams I've seen. But Toews, again, has had the luxury of having an extremely talented team help carry him, especially in 2010 when he lost his mind agt the Wings.

The Hawks have always had 8+ players that can burn a team with their individual skill. That's where their resiliency comes in. Because they know it doesn't have to be Toews or Kane to come in and save the day.

Look how small their team is now with losing Sharp and Saad, and replacing them with essentially two midgets. But those guys have skill, and the Hawks know what their identity is.

The reality is, the Pens have never been an all skilled team like the Hawks. The Pens have had maybe half the number of individually skilled players that can burn you on their team at any one time, than the Hawks.

JR is trying to build this team like the Hawks, like many of us have been begging for since '06, and people are whining about that?

Ok then....

 

[Coastal Kev]

You are just slapping labels on the entire team and there are only three guys that fit the description you just laid out: Kunitz, Sutter and Scuds.

All of the other vets battle hard: Crosby, Malkin, Hornqvist, Dupuis, Perron, Letang and Cole.

The Hawks are one the most resilient teams I've seen. But Toews, again, has had the luxury of having an extremely talented team help carry him, especially in 2010 when he lost his mind agt the Wings.

The Hawks have always had 8+ players that can burn a team with their individual skill. That's where their resiliency comes in. Because they know it doesn't have to be Toews or Kane to come in and save the day.

Look how small their team is now with losing Sharp and Saad, and replacing them with essentially two midgets. But those guys have skill, and the Hawks know what their identity is.

The reality is, the Pens have never been an all skilled team like the Hawks. The Pens have had maybe half the number of individually skilled players that can burn you on their team at any one time, than the Hawks.

JR is trying to build this team like the Hawks, like many of us have been begging for since '06, and people are whining about that?

Ok then....

I would be more confident in what JR was doing if he hadn't made the Despres trade. He is also talking about Duper and Kunitz in the top 6 and we also had the opportunity to eat Scuds contract and did not.

The sad thing in my view is that the Pens are close to being what Chicago is. But it would take a GM to make a couple of bold moves.

Trading Sutter would be first on the list.

Packaging Pouliot and Kunitz for youth, speed and size would be another move he could make.

With those two moves, you could change the entire outlook for this club. Instead, we get Kessel and it's pretty much the status quo for the organization. Is there hope that Sundqvist and Plotnikov will play valued minutes? Of course. But I have also followed this team long enough to know that Duper will be with Sid, Kuni will be in the top 6 and Bennett and Oskar will battle to get even a few minutes on the fourth line.

 

[mpp9]

Crosby and Malkin play just as hard as Hossa and Toews. Kessel is no softer than Kane. Perron plays just as hard as Sharp, and actually goes to the net regularly. Hornqvist is a monster who's only rivaled by significantly worse players in Bickell and Shaw.

That leaves a bunch of young skilled guys and Vermette from last year. Vermette is no more punishing than Sutter.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Crosby and Malkin play just as hard as Hossa and Toews. Kessel is no softer than Kane. Perron plays just as hard as Sharp, and actually goes to the net regularly. Hornqvist is a monster who's only rivaled by significantly worse players in Bickell and Shaw.

That leaves a bunch of young skilled guys and Vermette from last year. Vermette is no more punishing than Sutter.

yep, the only guy we can't really match is Seabrook.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I would be more confident in what JR was doing if he hadn't made the Despres trade. He is also talking about Duper and Kunitz in the top 6 and we also had the opportunity to eat Scuds contract and did not.

The sad thing in my view is that the Pens are close to being what Chicago is. But it would take a GM to make a couple of bold moves.

Trading Sutter would be first on the list.

Packaging Pouliot and Kunitz for youth, speed and size would be another move he could make.

With those two moves, you could change the entire outlook for this club. Instead, we get Kessel and it's pretty much the status quo for the organization. Is there hope that Sundqvist and Plotnikov will play valued minutes? Of course. But I have also followed this team long enough to know that Duper will be with Sid, Kuni will be in the top 6 and Bennett and Oskar will battle to get even a few minutes on the fourth line.

This isn't a rebuilding team, and JR had a monumental task put before him last June. He had to retool this org on the fly and clean up the mess Shero left. He has an obvious vision of how this team should be built though and it is one the prior regime should have had from the day Crosby was drafted.

He has done an incredible turnover on the roster in 13 months. However, he can only work within the parameters of the contracts Shero gave out.

Eating Scuds contract wasn't an easy decision. That meant four years of over a million on the cap. JR tried to move him in the Kessel deal. It's not his fault Shero put a NMC in there.

There are other forces at work with Kunitz IMHO and I have little doubt JR has any personal attachment to him.

A man can only perform so many miracles in 13 months.

 

[Ogrezilla]

but that Despres trade was really bad though. It really just doesn't make sense compared to anything else he's done.

 

[Coach Travis]

You are just slapping labels on the entire team and there are only three guys that fit the description you just laid out: Kunitz, Sutter and Scuds.

All of the other vets battle hard: Crosby, Malkin, Hornqvist, Dupuis, Perron, Letang and Cole.

The Hawks are one the most resilient teams I've seen. But Toews, again, has had the luxury of having an extremely talented team help carry him, especially in 2010 when he lost his mind agt the Wings.

The Hawks have always had 8+ players that can burn a team with their individual skill. That's where their resiliency comes in. Because they know it doesn't have to be Toews or Kane to come in and save the day.

Look how small their team is now with losing Sharp and Saad, and replacing them with essentially two midgets. But those guys have skill, and the Hawks know what their identity is.

The reality is, the Pens have never been an all skilled team like the Hawks. The Pens have had maybe half the number of individually skilled players that can burn you on their team at any one time, than the Hawks.

JR is trying to build this team like the Hawks, like many of us have been begging for since '06, and people are whining about that?

Ok then....

Bang on. Toews scored 3 goals in their 2nd Cup run. 3!!! Can you imagine Crosby scoring 3 goals and his team carrying him to a Cup?!

What I'm seeing JR do, and I hope I'm right about this, is having as many forwards who can either jump into a Top 6 role or be an adequate scoring threat in the bottom 6 against lesser defensive players. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing 1 unit who's very good at defensive-zone draws and breaking out and then seeing HCMJ deploy them as such. I see Joel Quenville and Alain Vineault do this constantly. When AV was with Vancouver it was always the Sedin's with the OZ starts and Malholtra with DZ starts. Same with Chicago, you very rarely saw Kane-Richards-Sharp start in the DZ.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

I would be more confident in what JR was doing if he hadn't made the Despres trade. He is also talking about Duper and Kunitz in the top 6 and we also had the opportunity to eat Scuds contract and did not.

The sad thing in my view is that the Pens are close to being what Chicago is. But it would take a GM to make a couple of bold moves.

Trading Sutter would be first on the list.

Packaging Pouliot and Kunitz for youth, speed and size would be another move he could make.

With those two moves, you could change the entire outlook for this club. Instead, we get Kessel and it's pretty much the status quo for the organization. Is there hope that Sundqvist and Plotnikov will play valued minutes? Of course. But I have also followed this team long enough to know that Duper will be with Sid, Kuni will be in the top 6 and Bennett and Oskar will battle to get even a few minutes on the fourth line.

If only we could trade Pouliot for youth and speed and skill that we really need... oh wait...

 

[billybudd]

If you're looking for a D that'll move Simmonds out of the crease you'll be looking forever. Favorite player in the NHL. Watch him all the time. List of players I've seen do a good job on him in front of the net since he refined his game into an elite net front presence is:

Chara
Gudbranson

That's it. That's the list. Even Weber can't handle him.

There are no physical, athletic, 6'6+ monsters on D in free agency or in our system. They're almost never available to draft. The last guy like that we had was Leroux, 20 years ago, and he was horrible. Simmonds will park in our crease just like he parks in the crease of 29 teams. And he'll win any battle, just like he does against 27 teams.

Way you handle him is through puck movement by the D. You don't play his game, you make him play yours.

When he's in front (which is always), it's 4 on 5 everywhere else. You have to stop the shot before it gets to where he's at, then transition the other direction quickly so he gets trapped. The guys that make him a minus (other than the two I mentioned above) are all guys that make accurate passes quickly (Stralman, McDonagh, Tyutin, Green, Markov) or guys that front a lot of shots (Greene, Salvador, Emelin, Clitsome, Orpik*).

I would very much like the Penguins to get bigger and meaner. With their depth and complimentary forwards. Expecting Dumoulin to muscle up on Simmonds is never going to work, nor is trading one of the guys we have for Polak, who also can't handle Simmonds.


*believe it or not, Simmonds practically never scores when Orpik's on the ice, going back 5 years. My guess is that's because Brooks blocks so many shots from ever getting to where Simmonds is. Obviously, Brooks never attempted to move Simmonds prior to scoring.

 

[Coastal Kev]

If only we could trade Pouliot for youth and speed and skill that we really need... oh wait...

I'm sorry I have to spell it out for you what I meant; youth and speed at forward, size on defense. Happy?

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

I'm sorry I have to spell it out for you what I meant; youth and speed at forward, size on defense. Happy?

You don't have to be sorry... that's not even slightly what you said and almost nothing you ever say makes me happy anyway so we're good.

 

[Coastal Kev]

You don't have to be sorry... that's not even slightly what you said and almost nothing you ever say makes me happy anyway so we're good.

Does it bother you that I am right oh so often? Get your pom poms ready for another year of disappointing Penguin hockey.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

Does it bother you that I am right oh so often? Get your pom poms ready for another year of disappointing Penguin hockey.

Yes you nailed it... it bothers me so much. If we would only trade Pouliot then I could get my pom poms ready... that's the issue...

What exactly makes you think you know more than anyone other than you ***** like a champ no matter what and about everything?

 

[Sam Spade]

I think the forwards actually have some grit to them but I think the D is butter soft and will get pretty beat up during the course of 82 games. Hopefully they hold up.

 

[Lim Ran]

but that Despres trade was really bad though. It really just doesn't make sense compared to anything else he's done.

Given how many moving parts that management team has, I'm willing to give the man a pass. Even if it's a pass for something as incredibly ridiculous as the Despres trade (that it seems like absolutely no one -even Rutherford himself - can defend). Despres would look great on that D right about now.

If Kessel works as he... should(?) I guess(?) hopefully(?), then fine. His body of work for the Pens has been (as I've said all along) largely strong aside from one (albeit very ugly) wart.

 

[WayneSid9987]

This isn't a rebuilding team, and JR had a monumental task put before him last June. He had to retool this org on the fly and clean up the mess Shero left. He has an obvious vision of how this team should be built though and it is one the prior regime should have had from the day Crosby was drafted.

He has done an incredible turnover on the roster in 13 months. However, he can only work within the parameters of the contracts Shero gave out.

Eating Scuds contract wasn't an easy decision. That meant four years of over a million on the cap. JR tried to move him in the Kessel deal. It's not his fault Shero put a NMC in there.

There are other forces at work with Kunitz IMHO and I have little doubt JR has any personal attachment to him.

A man can only perform so many miracles in 13 months.

All good points here. Kinda crazy to think we landed Kessel and still have all of the old/expensive/anchors still. We can thank Shero for that. Once we replace them with younger/hungrier/grittier legs, we should be set up pretty well. The good thing is JR is with us on this. He wants to move the Scuds', Kunitz's, Sutter's eventually and sooner rather than later. He can pump these guys' tires in the media all he wants but the facts are out there. These guys aren't a part of JR's long/short'ish term plans.