So long fighting
- Thread starter Tim Raines
- Start date
I have mixed feelings on the 3-fight rule. Staged fights between two unskilled knuckel heads and the fight because the home team is losing had to be eliminated. On the other hand, I believe the threat of a fight should never be taken out of the game. 3-fights is ok if instigator penalties are discretionary. If a 19yr old player intends to hurt or intimidate the oppositions 17yr old scorer or 16yr old 1st Rd pick; then, by all means have at him; that is a freebie. Instigator penalties resulting from scrums too. From the perspective of a young rebuilding team, it was disgusting to watch veteran clubs effectively mug the kids following 2/3 whistles; but, see the refs step in when Schmalz entered the fray and the see the other team head to the bench like good boys. Just let Schmalz embarrass the culprit using his age/size to wear down a rookie one time for a total of five minutes in penalties; and, I'm pretty sure the culprit won't be so aggressive after the next whistle.
I think those 'freebies' apply even if they are used several shifts later.
I think those 'freebies' apply even if they are used several shifts later.
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Naz
Registered User
I agree on your 1st paragraph but the rest not so much your putting too much on the referees they can't even get a simple penalty right and now you want them to penalize do to age difference if I'm understanding your post correctly and if not I do apologize.you don't need fighting just look @ world juniors, Olympics and ncaa
You understood correctly. There's four freak'n zebras out there; gotta hope for competence!
You just can't compare tournaments to a 68 game schedule followed by seven game playoff series and the possibility of meeting again the next season; and, there's also the possibility of meeting in a regular season after tournaments. Well, I grew up in the 'take his # era'.
I completely agree. Fighting, head shots, intent to injure, dangerous hits from behind, can't leave the fast enough. I fully support the rule changes, even though they are incremental and overdue. The final leg of this is to similarly design them out of the ECHL, AHL and NHL.
aresknights
Registered User
If a player is "haunting" a smaller player, but staying within the rules why word your guy need to fight or instigate?
Theres players now and has been at all levels, known for being agitators and threats of fighting hasnt stopped them The list of idiots in the NHL is long and has always been. Threats of fights arent huge deterents.
To me the better solution is, you needle, haunt, agitate our star player we are going after your star in the same manner. I just think thats more effective then then threat of someone instigating a scrap.
Canucks were going after Gilmour in a game. Clarke skates by the bench and clearly tells Bure. Paraphrasing here-- " the next time someone gets after Dougie Im coming after YOU" Ended the problem.
aresknights
Registered User
OMG67
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- Sep 1, 2013
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Fighting in hockey will be gone very soon, EVERYWHERE. IT is just a matter of time. There are too many legal issues with it. Too many guys suffering from the long term effects of it. You may also start seeing boarding calls increase to reduce the likelihood of concussions. Thundering body blows will get called as boarding. The brain getting jarred in the whiplash effect of thundering hits is also causing problems.
Brain health is starting to become a major topic, especially as the game keeps getting faster and players keep getting bigger. Insurance companies and Civil Lawsuits are starting to shape the game and force it in a different direction.
Teams are also making significant investments in player salaries and they simply cannot have their investments sitting out. There are far too many players sitting perpetually on the IR.
As the game gets less physical and more fast, it is likely we will see less dirty infractions like bad hits which lessens the need for the "retribution" fights. We will see stick work of course but stick work generally doesn't cause major injuries.
Now, for the OHL, we have seen massive suspensions for the bad hits and we will continue to see those. That has become a deterrent for the bad hits. We do see less of them now.
I'm a guy that loves to see a good scrap. I love heavy hits. But I also recognize that the players are starting to pay a heavy price for my bloodlust. I understand and agree that if the game of hockey wants to have long term success with players that can play a long career and show their skills, I need to sacrifice some of my wants. I have to admit that I like being able to see smallish players excell at the NHL level. It is fun it its own way.
All in all, I understand what the league needs to do. I agree with it, even if it is sad to see go.
Brain health is starting to become a major topic, especially as the game keeps getting faster and players keep getting bigger. Insurance companies and Civil Lawsuits are starting to shape the game and force it in a different direction.
Teams are also making significant investments in player salaries and they simply cannot have their investments sitting out. There are far too many players sitting perpetually on the IR.
As the game gets less physical and more fast, it is likely we will see less dirty infractions like bad hits which lessens the need for the "retribution" fights. We will see stick work of course but stick work generally doesn't cause major injuries.
Now, for the OHL, we have seen massive suspensions for the bad hits and we will continue to see those. That has become a deterrent for the bad hits. We do see less of them now.
I'm a guy that loves to see a good scrap. I love heavy hits. But I also recognize that the players are starting to pay a heavy price for my bloodlust. I understand and agree that if the game of hockey wants to have long term success with players that can play a long career and show their skills, I need to sacrifice some of my wants. I have to admit that I like being able to see smallish players excell at the NHL level. It is fun it its own way.
All in all, I understand what the league needs to do. I agree with it, even if it is sad to see go.
This is so good news! i hope NHL will do the same thing. Yesterday i watched Colorado vs Detroit late 90s early 2000s matches and man those games where boring all those fights etc. so boring.I was looking for early version of speed game with "no" tackling/fighting. I hope someday nhl will be no contact sport it will be so much more entertaining!....
Sec108
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- Sep 5, 2011
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At the end of the day the consumer or paying fan is going to decide.
Are we going to see attendance suffer or gain over all the changes??
Time will tell..........
But please don't think were all so naive as to believe the league cares about the health of their players.
Its all about their investment, meaning $$$$$.From the OHL,parents,agents,NHL team if drafted.
Time to stop BSing each other.
Are we going to see attendance suffer or gain over all the changes??
Time will tell..........
But please don't think were all so naive as to believe the league cares about the health of their players.
Its all about their investment, meaning $$$$$.From the OHL,parents,agents,NHL team if drafted.
Time to stop BSing each other.
Fans will vote with their wallets. I don't need to see a fight every game and enjoy college hockey without the fighting, but what I am not gonna do is pay top dollar for a league that has taken away an item off the menu.
Kinda like being charged the same for the steak you always used to order only now the restaurant says you get no potato or salad.
I had ECHL season tickets for years. The games got more and more boring and lacking in physical play and intensity. The last straw was about 3 seasons ago when they instituted the no helmet removal rule for fighting 2 weeks before the season after they had everyone's season ticket money. I rode it out for that season and then decided not to renew. Guess what- the team in my city is now for sale and on the verge of folding. I decided to instead of paying for ECHL tickets to go to the NCAA D3 team across town for $5 a ticket and free parking and watch games with just a much intensity. I have also traveled to Canada 4-5 times a year watching everything from Junior B to the OHL and the Q to the LNAH. I just won't make the OHL a priority anymore as there is just a much intensity in the Junior A games at half the cost.
This is a Canadian league. Fans have lots of choices from CIS to Tier 2 all at half the price. The only OHL markets without another option that I can think of are Owen Sound, (although the GMHL is not far away in Meaford) and possibly Saginaw and Flint. Other markets can decide to attend lower forms of hockey at half the price and with similar levels of entertainment. If I lived in London I would switch to watching the Nationals. If I was in Kingston I would switch from the Fronts to either Queens or the Voyageurs.
Time will tell if attendance drops as fans no longer feel the OHL is a value, but it is a possibility.
Kinda like being charged the same for the steak you always used to order only now the restaurant says you get no potato or salad.
I had ECHL season tickets for years. The games got more and more boring and lacking in physical play and intensity. The last straw was about 3 seasons ago when they instituted the no helmet removal rule for fighting 2 weeks before the season after they had everyone's season ticket money. I rode it out for that season and then decided not to renew. Guess what- the team in my city is now for sale and on the verge of folding. I decided to instead of paying for ECHL tickets to go to the NCAA D3 team across town for $5 a ticket and free parking and watch games with just a much intensity. I have also traveled to Canada 4-5 times a year watching everything from Junior B to the OHL and the Q to the LNAH. I just won't make the OHL a priority anymore as there is just a much intensity in the Junior A games at half the cost.
This is a Canadian league. Fans have lots of choices from CIS to Tier 2 all at half the price. The only OHL markets without another option that I can think of are Owen Sound, (although the GMHL is not far away in Meaford) and possibly Saginaw and Flint. Other markets can decide to attend lower forms of hockey at half the price and with similar levels of entertainment. If I lived in London I would switch to watching the Nationals. If I was in Kingston I would switch from the Fronts to either Queens or the Voyageurs.
Time will tell if attendance drops as fans no longer feel the OHL is a value, but it is a possibility.
OHLTG
Registered User
I understand why they've had staged fights in the past. I'm not against them now, under the right circumstances, but I don't think there's a need for most of them anymore. Fighting to defend a teammate is something I'll never be against.
Haunt may have been wrong word. I was thinking more stalking or pushing around. That approach. That said, if a larger opponent is going after a smaller one, having the teammate step in is appreciated. I've been in that situation before. Having back-up is relief.
This is partially because of the Instigator Rule. If a pest is continuously going after someone, he can't get silenced because of the IR. This new rule will allow even more.
In the same manner, anyone who thought about touching Gretzky knew they had to deal with McSorley. Anyone who touched Wellwood or Ott knew they were getting Janssen. Going after the other stars helps, but it also creates even more tension.
OMG67
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Where I disagree is all the times where a guy is defending a teammate for taking a good clean hit. How often did a player in the past take a hit while his head was down and then the hitter gets jumped? Way too often. It has become a farce.
If the players were able to control themselves and fight when it was really warranted, we probably wouldn't be in this mess. Unfortunately, some players are far to liberal when it comes to "defending" their teammates.
OHLTG
Registered User
Let's be fair with that, though. When you're on the ice, at game speed, you don't always see what the TV viewers see. While it may look clean on TV, players on the ice see it differently and have very little time to react.
EvenSteven
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- Sep 3, 2009
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Dumb argument. The reason those events "don't need fighting" is because of the incredible elite talent on hand.
If you could stock every CHL team with similar talent, then I'd buy it. But since there isn't enough elite talent to go around, each team has 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners. With that comes a major watering down of skill. That leads to teams icing players who have to do "other things" to stay in the lineup. These other things translate into more physicality, intimidation, shift disturbing, etc, etc.
And with those things, sometimes the need for the odd fight arises.
UsernameWasTaken
Let's Go Hawks!
And the NCAA?
There's also very little fighting in the European leagues.
And, in the NHL, once the playoffs get started, fighting drops off an incredible amount. During the regular season, there isn't any relationship between fights & team success.
I've always been pretty skeptical about what, if any, positive effect fighting has on the game. Idiots are idiots and they're going to behave that way whether or not there's some guy on the other team who is there to fight. And honestly? It's not the "rats" that people claim need to be 'held accountable' who end up fighting - it ends up being the two 'fighters' on each team who end up fighting each other.
I used to be a big fight fan, but for years, the Otters couldn't do anything well but fight. Think about this-one year they had Gazdic, Peluso, and Liambas on their team. When #97 came, and our skill level increased, the entertainment value became much higher. Give me a fast, skill game anytime. Watching McDavid fly down the ice packed more fans into the EIA than any fight ever could. And, as a Penguins fan, their run had few to no fights. Was it entertaining? Just slightly so. Most new Pens fans I know don't like fighting. It will be gone soon, as OMG67 posted in the well thought out reply.
They fought because they were always losing. The fights were to deter the other team from running up the score. I was on that side, it didn't really work because of the instigator rule; in this case, it's a good rule as the games were sometimes a farce.
The only thing that I don't like about the rule at the jr level is that it encourages coaching the older/bigger players to wear down the younger/skilled player by looking for harder hits and more facials than they would look for against a player of similar age/size. The instigator rule allows this to occur without repercussions; I think it's disgusting.
I see your point, but as teams become more skilled, referees call tighter games, and lawsuits loom large, it will become a reality that fighting will disappear at all levels. It may cause some fans to quit going to the games, but it will draw more fans than it loses. Time and time again, when I talk to people who don't follow the game, they always bring up the fighting. I explain to them that it is slowly being eliminated at all levels of hockey, and most of them would attend games if fights were rare. Look at how exciting the OHL and NHL playoffs were without fighting.
Simple solution, increase the penalties for cheap shots and stick work as well. 5 minutes for stick penalties and suspensions for additional stick work penalties. The stick work will also stop
When I first started watching JR hockey fights were awesome, however like the average fan I've also found it less and less impactful on the game. I still think there's a place for it but agree with the league guys shouldn't be going all Derek Mathers on everyone. (no disrespect).
I don't think many people on here who are proponents of keeping fighting in the game are arguing the point FOR OUR ENTERTAINMENT. It's not about that at all.
ohloutsider
Registered User
Totally agree fighting needs to go, no longer part of the game. But - watched a player for years JS played with Owen Sound and London ( in this case teams were not the influence). After every whistle he would stick his glove in someones face, master at the face wash. Windsor player gets frustrated, jumps him - gets suspended for being the "instigator". The league MUST make these types of "after the whistle" incidents unsportsmen conduct penalties or fighting will never stop. Young men get sick and tired of this kind of play and take matters into their own hands, self policing will continue until the league steps up. As some have said it will turn the league into "girls hockey - FYI some of the best hockey I have seen played was girls hockey! Love the skill and speed game.
OMG67
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Any time someone gets intentionally touched on the head it should be a penalty. There is no reason for anyone to face wash or give someone a shot without taking a penalty. Play the game through the whistle and then stop when the whistle is blown.
IF we were playing any other sport and another player were to "face wash" another player, it would be called for a foul or penalty of some kind.
This is about changing the culture of the game, for better or worse. We have no choice now. We all see where it is going and we all see the multi-million dollar lawsuits. Why is it so difficult for people to understand? They can no longer bury their heads in the sand and say they didn't know about head injuries and their long term affects. They know now and if they don't want to be held accountable legally, they need to get rid of the obvious infractions that contribute to head injuries.
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MisterDB
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- Apr 5, 2012
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This new fighting rule is ridiculous, either allow fighting or ban it, adopt the OJHL rule where fighting get's you kicked out of the game.
I can't wait for all the pushy glove in your face stuff that happens after every whistle in Euro and NCAA
So we have 3 different national Jr leagues all under 1 Commisioner with 3 different
sets of rules.
Currently the OHL for the last 4 seasons have more games suspensions than the Q and W combined, all in the guise of player safety. Well from the amount of suspensions this tact isn't working.
Why is a player allowed to stay on the ice after getting cranked but the player doing the cranking gets a 5 min major, kicked out and suspended. I have seen it many a times, If a player is hit hard enough by the aforementioned player then he should at least under go off ice evaluation back in the dressing room and not a "you OK .. ya good get back out there."
Somebody mentioned earlier about full cages well the last NCAA games I've watched they all wear full cages. That is another way to stop fights, remember there is already a rule in the OHL about removing ones helmet.
Some real data for last year OHL suspensions
Total Games 426
Occurrences 115
Games per Occur 3.7
I can't wait for all the pushy glove in your face stuff that happens after every whistle in Euro and NCAA
So we have 3 different national Jr leagues all under 1 Commisioner with 3 different
sets of rules.
Currently the OHL for the last 4 seasons have more games suspensions than the Q and W combined, all in the guise of player safety. Well from the amount of suspensions this tact isn't working.
Why is a player allowed to stay on the ice after getting cranked but the player doing the cranking gets a 5 min major, kicked out and suspended. I have seen it many a times, If a player is hit hard enough by the aforementioned player then he should at least under go off ice evaluation back in the dressing room and not a "you OK .. ya good get back out there."
Somebody mentioned earlier about full cages well the last NCAA games I've watched they all wear full cages. That is another way to stop fights, remember there is already a rule in the OHL about removing ones helmet.
Some real data for last year OHL suspensions
Total Games 426
Occurrences 115
Games per Occur 3.7
