Sidney Crosby - best player ever?
- Thread starter tinyzombies
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Nah, I don't think so. Also, his career two-way play is overstated in the OP. For the majority of his regular season career, he wasn't anything noteworthy defensively. The last year or two (especially last year), he was really good. And in the playoffs, he's excellent at both ends in almost every series. But he's not a career two-way dynamo.
He's so adaptable that he could have been...but it would have cost him offense, of course.
He's versatile, he's about the smartest player I have ever seen, he was the first hyper-speed superstar in the nuNHL (despite developing in the old world era)...he's a lot of things, a lot of super, super things even...but the best player ever? That's pretty heavy.
It's tough, of course...but if you're watching every player at his prime or even young career...you're on the clock at first overall...who are you taking? To be fair, you have to adjust for era a bit. George Washington isn't a bad general because he didn't nuke the British...so, with that in mind, who is going to stand out the most to build your franchise around?
Crosby is on the shortlist for #1, but I'm not sure that he really is #1...that's a lot...
He's so adaptable that he could have been...but it would have cost him offense, of course.
He's versatile, he's about the smartest player I have ever seen, he was the first hyper-speed superstar in the nuNHL (despite developing in the old world era)...he's a lot of things, a lot of super, super things even...but the best player ever? That's pretty heavy.
It's tough, of course...but if you're watching every player at his prime or even young career...you're on the clock at first overall...who are you taking? To be fair, you have to adjust for era a bit. George Washington isn't a bad general because he didn't nuke the British...so, with that in mind, who is going to stand out the most to build your franchise around?
Crosby is on the shortlist for #1, but I'm not sure that he really is #1...that's a lot...
I deserve credit for not starting this thread.
Setting aside the inevitable era comparisons, he has a frustratingly small, relative to his career, amount of unfinished business on his resume due to unlucky and untimely injuries that places him aside or behind players will more complete resumes.
He could have the consensus #5 resume all-time if he played 40 to 50 more games (about 3% of his career games) at key times:
- 30 more games in 10/11 likely gets him a dominant Art Ross win and a Hart; a full season likely is the clear best season out of the Big 3.
- 5 or 6 more games in 12/13 wins him the Art Ross; 5 or 6 more is another dominant, best of era level season which really separates him from Malkin and Ovechkin.
- 2 or 3 more games in 14/15 wins the Art Ross and salvages what was promising to be another solid, if not dominant, Art Ross win after a great 1/4 season start was wiped away by a viral infection
- in 2017, despite a concussion at the start of the season, he leads the league in goals and in PPG (until the last part of the season).
- In the 2017 playoffs, he is off to a great start but is then concussed in Game 3 vs. the Caps. He comes back and still wins the Cup and the Smythe but one is left to wonder if he could have put up 30 plus points again.
- Same with 2022, is off to a great start for a Pens team that maybe has one more playoff run in them but is concussed again.
He could have had 4 -5 Rosses and 4 to 5 Harts; two Smythes and three Cups; a resume that is only clearly bettered by the Big 4.
That being said, it is too hard to judge that a player would play the exact same if they were not injured. I think motivation plays a large role in these things.
But Crosby's resilience and elite longevity deserves recognition. He is only behind Wayne and Howe in elite longevity; an achievement given retirement was a possibility after his first concussions and after the three more he has gotten. That he came back to dominate the 2017 SCF and win his 2nd Smythe is not talked about enough.
He just had a very Howe-like season at age 36; his 19th season.
All things considered, he has a great argument for #5 all-time; and for being a great all around player and leader, perhaps only behind Howe in that regard for forwards among the Top 20.
Setting aside the inevitable era comparisons, he has a frustratingly small, relative to his career, amount of unfinished business on his resume due to unlucky and untimely injuries that places him aside or behind players will more complete resumes.
He could have the consensus #5 resume all-time if he played 40 to 50 more games (about 3% of his career games) at key times:
- 30 more games in 10/11 likely gets him a dominant Art Ross win and a Hart; a full season likely is the clear best season out of the Big 3.
- 5 or 6 more games in 12/13 wins him the Art Ross; 5 or 6 more is another dominant, best of era level season which really separates him from Malkin and Ovechkin.
- 2 or 3 more games in 14/15 wins the Art Ross and salvages what was promising to be another solid, if not dominant, Art Ross win after a great 1/4 season start was wiped away by a viral infection
- in 2017, despite a concussion at the start of the season, he leads the league in goals and in PPG (until the last part of the season).
- In the 2017 playoffs, he is off to a great start but is then concussed in Game 3 vs. the Caps. He comes back and still wins the Cup and the Smythe but one is left to wonder if he could have put up 30 plus points again.
- Same with 2022, is off to a great start for a Pens team that maybe has one more playoff run in them but is concussed again.
He could have had 4 -5 Rosses and 4 to 5 Harts; two Smythes and three Cups; a resume that is only clearly bettered by the Big 4.
That being said, it is too hard to judge that a player would play the exact same if they were not injured. I think motivation plays a large role in these things.
But Crosby's resilience and elite longevity deserves recognition. He is only behind Wayne and Howe in elite longevity; an achievement given retirement was a possibility after his first concussions and after the three more he has gotten. That he came back to dominate the 2017 SCF and win his 2nd Smythe is not talked about enough.
He just had a very Howe-like season at age 36; his 19th season.
All things considered, he has a great argument for #5 all-time; and for being a great all around player and leader, perhaps only behind Howe in that regard for forwards among the Top 20.
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Credit to daver for not starting this.
The best I can say for Crosby is that he's had an all time great career and he's been a better player than his career looks on the surface level, as in if someone resorts to the laziest measures. But he's got no case for the best player ever. Any team would be thrilled to build around Crosby for his career but he can't be the first pick in an all time sense.
The best I can say for Crosby is that he's had an all time great career and he's been a better player than his career looks on the surface level, as in if someone resorts to the laziest measures. But he's got no case for the best player ever. Any team would be thrilled to build around Crosby for his career but he can't be the first pick in an all time sense.
BraveCanadian
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- Jun 30, 2010
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0 chance of a coherent argument for Crosby as the best player ever.
Even the nonsense argument that todays players are so much better than the past so we can discount them thing that was going around years ago doesn’t work when McDavid is clearly better than Crosby ever was..
Even the nonsense argument that todays players are so much better than the past so we can discount them thing that was going around years ago doesn’t work when McDavid is clearly better than Crosby ever was..
The Panther
Registered User
April 1st was, like, 32 days ago, so it's a bit late for silly jokes.
He's clearly has a better regular season resume through his first nine seasons due to less injuries. Other than that, Crosby was similarly as dominant vs. his peers on a per game basis through their first nine seasons.
Wayne Gretzky won 9 MVPs. Crosby won 2.
I don't think there's any kind of adjustment that can bring Crosby up to that level. We can argue whether it was easier to stand out, we can argue Canadian vs international competition, we can argue tighter competitive environment... but the difference is so big that the only way to but Crosby ahead of Gretzky is to basically argue that Gretzky-era hockey is worthless.
I don't think there's any kind of adjustment that can bring Crosby up to that level. We can argue whether it was easier to stand out, we can argue Canadian vs international competition, we can argue tighter competitive environment... but the difference is so big that the only way to but Crosby ahead of Gretzky is to basically argue that Gretzky-era hockey is worthless.
BraveCanadian
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Will any player ever have a case?
Is McDavid getting close or he is just having a more injury-free start to his career than Crosby did? Or did he just hit the ground running whereas Jagr, whose peak is similar to McDavid's, needed three more seasons to really hit his prime.
Are all three of these players on a Howe-like level of offensive dominance as a strict statistical assessment would show or are they closer to Hull/Beliveau/Richard; clear #2 in their era?
Scandale du Jour
JordanStaal#1Fan
Love Sid to death, but no.
Orr, Lemieux and Gretzky are clearly a notch above. Most people would also have Howe above him. THEN he enters the conversation with a bunch of guys.
Orr, Lemieux and Gretzky are clearly a notch above. Most people would also have Howe above him. THEN he enters the conversation with a bunch of guys.
Until this past season, noone was putting any of McDavid's peers on Malkin's peak level.
Crosby also played through arguably the one of the most difficult era offensively (the DPE 2.0 from 10/11 to 16/17) where it is harder for superstar offensive talent to separate themselves from the pack.
We are now seeing a much more open league and seasons that rival the best of any non Big Four player by Kucherov, MacKinnon, and Matthews and all-time great career playoff PPGs by Draisaitl, MacKinnon and Makar.
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tinyzombies
Registered User
Why would you play two way hockey when it doesn’t matter and would just serve to wear you down for when it does? Doesn’t that make him smarter? Also he was the engine of back to back championships on teams that had weak bluelines and plug and play goalies.
I understand the emphasis on careers and measurably, but to me he could simply just be the best player ever to this point- eras and adjustments aside
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jigglysquishy
Registered User
What's the argument for Crosby over Gretzky? Or am I just missing a joke?
tinyzombies
Registered User
The 80s were a joke - that’s the argument. Not mine but that’s the argument.
Moose Head
Registered User
I’ll echo what others have said. He has a really good argument for the 5-10 spots. Reminds me of Beliveau, my favourite ever. Great player, great leader, great career, and maybe with more games here and there, he gets more personal hardware and a better case for Howe’s #4 spot.
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
That's also reductive - which I know you know and it's not your argument. The 80's aren't even the same for hockey. The NHL in 1981 is not the same NHL in 1989. It's a really big difference.
dr robbie
Let's Go Pens!
No.
And he's my second favorite player ever. I'm just not ignorant to the history of hockey or someone that has to artificially pump his tires.
And he's my second favorite player ever. I'm just not ignorant to the history of hockey or someone that has to artificially pump his tires.
The Panther
Registered User
Not to mention Gretzky had the single highest-scoring season of the 1990s. His 163 points (in 78 games) that year is 43 points more than Crosby's single highest season.
Then, there's this:
Even Strength Points (post-1980s):
103 - Gretzky
96 - Gretzky
72 - Crosby
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
- Sep 27, 2005
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You can't start this thread in the fashion that you did, and then punt on critique with "it's not my argument".
tinyzombies
Registered User
Who says.
The goalies in the 90s other than Hasek were basically off-duty carnies compared to what Sid faced.
Yea and Gretz dropped like 60-70 points in that span also. I’d love to hear Wayne make an argument for Sid, he’s honest to a fault.
jigglysquishy
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