sharpening/profiling

[michaelb27]

Hey guys, I just joined this forum. I just thought I'd let you know about my webpage I just put up at http://ca.geocities.com/[email protected]/index.htm
This webpage(my first) discusses in detail skate profiling and sharpening(hollows)(this is not spam, I'm not selling anything on it) Thanks. mike.

Click to read more...

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I don't mean to be a jerk, but that information isn't very accurate.


At www.modsquadhockey.com there is a plethora of good information reguarding hollow, profile, and pitch.

 

[michaelb27]

How so?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

You have all of the concepts right for the most part, but your estimations on hollow and profile raduis seem a bit off. For one, most guys over 200lbs use a 5/8th in. cut at most. Most speed skaters use a radius larger than you listed. And as far as profile radius goes, whether you play forward or defense, it really doesn't effect what will better suit you, it's all about what the skater feels best on.

 

[michaelb27]

A short track speed skate is on a 7-9 meter radius with an offset blade to help them turn(they can only turn one way). A long track skate(a different blade altogether) has a radius around 19 to 22 meters. 1 meter = ~ 3 feet(http://www.reddeerspeedskating.ca/info.htm)
The reason that a short track speed skater needs more of a rocker is because he has to be able to make a turn around an olympic size hockey rink. He wouldn't be able to make it with a 21 meter rocker. He'd have to slow down before entering the turn or crash.....

"whether you play forward or defense, it really doesn't effect what will better suit you, it's all about what the skater feels best on."
This is absolutely true, it's all about personal preference, but in most cases an attack rocker is not advantageous when skating backwards obviously because your more on your toes.
"For one, most guys over 200lbs use a 5/8th in. cut at most"
47% of nhler's use a 1/2 inch hollow. I wish I had the link to that statistic.
Some guys do like a more shallow hollow. It's a personal thing, but I think in my personal opinion it's better to be able to grab the ice with a deeper hollow. You can't glide as far when a deeper hollow, but once you start to move your legs it works out to be about the same speed, just with more control. Yes a 3/8 would be extremely deep hollow for a 225 pound player, thus I recommend a 1/2 inch on my website. Though some players might like to have a very deep hollow if they have really strong legs. Again your right it's personal preference.

Everyone has a different opinion of the "right" hollow. I just tried to explain the concepts and give some opinions so that people could make their own decision

 

[Greeneye]

It looks like you ripped some of that straight off Noicing's website...shame.

 

[michaelb27]

"ripped some of that straight off Noicing's website"
What the rocking chair analogy(I've heard this analogy from other people as well) and a picture(one of which he got elsewhere...I copied that picture from another site)? You think the owner of that website figured this all out on his own? lol....yea right....this knowledge has been around for decades Where did he talk about pavel bure and some of the other discussions on my site? And I'm not competing against them so who cares.

 

[Greeneye]

You added some opinion I will give you that. Most of that is already available on website's like Noicing.

 

[Timmer44]

47% of nhler's use a 1/2 inch hollow. I wish I had the link to that statistic.
Some guys do like a more shallow hollow. It's a personal thing, but I think in my personal opinion it's better to be able to grab the ice with a deeper hollow. You can't glide as far when a deeper hollow, but once you start to move your legs it works out to be about the same speed, just with more control.

More and more NHLers are switching to a more shallow hollow. I would say the majority are at 5/8th to even 7/8th.

 

[michaelb27]

"More and more NHLers are switching to a more shallow hollow. I would say the majority are at 5/8th to even 7/8th."

Probably because the league is so much bigger now. If you look back a 5 foot 10 175 pound guy was considered an average to even big sized player!!(in the 60s a 5 foot 10 guy was considered big) In my opinion 7/8's is probably too shallow of a hollow unless your like laraque and weigh 260 pounds. With a 7/8s, your going to lose some tight cutting ability and your push off won't be as strong because you won't grip the ice as much. A 5/8s hollow(not that far from a 1/2 inch) seems completely reasonable for a player over 200 pounds.

 

[michaelb27]

Maybe you were right....mike D speed without agility is meaningless. There is only one nhler(non-goalie) using a 13 foot rocker and that is chris pronger. Every other player in the league is on an 11 foot or less. Most are on a 9 foot, one of the reasons the tuuk was one of the most used blade holders.. Rocker and hollows have been know in hockey since the BEGINING of hockey.....the current design, either a 9 foot or 11 foot is all anybody needs for the most part. The difference between a 9 foot and 11 foot is very very little. Any speed increased you notice would be in your head. Going beyond an 11 foot, you will lose WAY to much agility and will not see any type of noticeable speed increase until you get into the mid 20s(and you will not be able to turn properly or execute quick changes of direction). You have to remember speed skate blades are 17 inches LONG on a flat grind Thats one of the reasons there so fast.....being this long....they also take away agility and turning ability. For every action, there is a reaction. With a flat grind you wouldn't even be able to stop....you'd just slide. And you know what I've seen goalies on a 28 foot rocker....they aint that fast....lol. There's no magical blade combination One of the main reasons speed skaters are also so fast is they don't wear equipment....think how much your hockey bag weighs....do u know how much that slows u down!!! Think about how much faster your legs move when your not wearing equipment....its not just weight but also the equipment slowing down leg movement because theres all that bulk interefering with the natural movements of your legs. they wear skin tight suits to help with air resistance. Also, a speed skater has different technique because there's a much longer gliding phase because of the blade design and the intensity of there skating(thus the need for fast gliding speeds ie flat grind) and races are not done at 100% effort....how could u skate 100% for 5000 meters? impossible....even in 500 meter they don't use a two arm swing and there not going 100% through the whole race. It's a very different type of skating than hockey. During races, you'll see a speed skater skating with both his hands behind his back and bent over a 90 degrees to avoid wind resistance. Not exactly a good technique for hockey....lol, but for trying to go moderate intensity with blades that have a long glide phase....it works.
The fact of the matter, all of this hollow and rocker stuff is mostly meaningless.....just buy the skates, get a normal sharpening from a competent skateshop and your FINE!!!!!!! A great skater is not made by a hollow or a rocker....obviously

 

[MikeD]

Michaleb,

When you increase the radius profile of a blade you also increase the amount of blade in contact with the ice. That is a mathamatical fact. My goalers with a 28' Profile have a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of ice contact than any Out players.

Who cares what a speed skater uses? This site is about hockey. You asked to show your web site. You have done so. To me it seems you have a stronger desire to "prove" yourself while insulting one the the best grinders in the business and do nothing but stir up a crap storm. Many people ship skates to noiceing from all over the states to get his grinds. I am one of them. You need to back the hell off. Every one is entitled to an opinion but you dont have the right to libel anyone.

As far as just getting a generic grind....Thats like saying all goalie gear is the same...just close your eyes and pick something, Right? WRONG! That last comment you made tells me that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Just ice conditions can dictate a change in grind for top performance. A player can have a perfectly fine grind by the average standard. A grinder can also place the EXACT same grind they are used to yet tell them it is different and they will proclaim a hate for it...there is much to be said for the mental aspect. I havent even looked at your page and I can tell you right now I WONT WASTE MY TIME on your topic any longer. See ya, dont let the mouse click you on the *** on the way out...

 

[michaelb27]

Ok MikeD, your right. Happy now? lol.
So maybe it does increase the amount of blade on the ice(honestly I was just pissed off about a comment earlier about how I copied noicing)....maybe you have a point there....but the rest of my points make sense.(and are pretty much in line with what noicing is saying, but with my analogy's and some opinions put in as well. And I didn't say he was a bad grinder....geez calm down....Are you in love with the guy or something? lol.

 

[ModSquad]

I don't know where you are getting your numbers from, michaelB.

I've been fortunate enough to have actually worked an NHL locker room.

And FWIW, the sharpener in question isn't all that. A monkey can profile on a CAG ONE.

 

[michaelb27]

"I don't know where you are getting your numbers from,"
I saw those numbers when they were interviewing an nhl equipment manager on tv. So what nhl lockerroom did you work in modsquad? what's your name? and what years did you work there? On your team what were the average numbers?

 

[MikeD]

And FWIW, the sharpener in question isn't all that. A monkey can profile on a CAG ONE.

Very true, provided the monkey can mic a blade, set the holder on center and program the passes on both axis. Its one thing to simply put a grind on. Its another to develop the specific grind to suit each individual and then be able to duplicate that grind to the micron, each and every time. We all have to admit that no matter the equipment your using, it takes experiance and skill to be able to put a good grind on.

 

[ModSquad]

"I don't know where you are getting your numbers from,"
I saw those numbers when they were interviewing an nhl equipment manager on tv. So what nhl lockerroom did you work in modsquad? what's your name? and what years did you work there? On your team what were the average numbers?

Team's in the Central.

Did a training camp with them.

Good experience - told me I wouldn't want to be an equipment manager as a career.

 

[ModSquad]

Very true, provided the monkey can mic a blade, set the holder on center and program the passes on both axis. Its one thing to simply put a grind on. Its another to develop the specific grind to suit each individual and then be able to duplicate that grind to the micron, each and every time. We all have to admit that no matter the equipment your using, it takes experiance and skill to be able to put a good grind on.

Have you ever operated a CAG?

 

[MikeD]

CNC/DNC OD, ID, lathes and multi spindle CNC screw machines as well. From programming in Fanuc, Okuma IGF and TB Deco proprietary....I gaurantee you that if I were to hand a skate to just anyone and point htem at the machine they would crash it. Its not quite as simple as some seem to think. IF all your doing is running the program, thats one thing. Its a whole new ball game when you do the programming.

 

[ModSquad]

Totally understandable. But for skates, the user in question doesn't have to program it, it's on the chip.

Much more easier than contouring by hand, and less skill required to operate.

While it does the job, the general consensus in the business is that you will do a better job manually than with a CAG. There is human finesse involved in sharpening/contouring, and unfortunately, it can result in human failure.

The guy's good, don't get me wrong, but not the "end all to be all" guy out there as he proclaims on his site.

 

[MikeD]

i would imagine that if you simply bought the machine and stuck with the generic software it could give a grind that isnt as good as one by hand with an experianced dude. It is also going to depend on the machine that is being used. In the case with noicing sports, they do program to tweak and save each individuals custom grind.

You wouldnt expect a person to proclaim themselves as anything other than the best would you? Where I place ads for my sports photography I do the same....its presentation! lol