GDT: Senators @ Capitals | 12/29/22 | 7:00p ET

[Monsterrain]

Kemper was phenomenal. Just take that with you.

Kemper was phenomenal. Just take that with you.

Mantha still stinks

 

[Peeri]

I hate seeing OV on ice during OT, he is liability unless someone sets him on up one timer. They had possession but as per usual he wants to cycle back, because he has no ability to hold on to the puck anymore. And we end up with Kuzy trying to be a hero and here we go.

They were due to a loss, so all is good in the world

 

[pman25]

Everyone had a pretty crap night. That 3rd D pair is still pretty yikes. I mean Irwin got abused by Kastelic. Dude just skated around him lol

 

[max21]

I just want some Mantha goals

 

[Holtbyisms]

Another point, oh well. What an embarrassing way to lose though. Blow a two goal lead then keystone caps overtime loss. Ugh...

 

[BallardEra]

I just want some Mantha goals

I can't believe how lackadaisical that guy plays. I don't picture that guy ever getting too high or too low.

Hopefully the Caps find a way to trade him.

 

[twabby]

The Mantha hate is another failing of the eye test. Stop watching the games!

 

[notDkristich]

Interesting note...

The Mantha hate is another failing of the eye test. Stop watching the games!

I follow the eye test most of the the time...sadly, Mantha does not pass it. (My opionion only) Most of his success tends to be against lesser teams. (Dont shoot the messenger, where is the fancy stats?)

 

[Corby78]

Turnovers were very costly. The game should have been put away in the second but we gave up some gifts and it cost us.

 

[crazy8888]

I hate seeing OV on ice during OT, he is liability unless someone sets him on up one timer. They had possession but as per usual he wants to cycle back, because he has no ability to hold on to the puck anymore. And we end up with Kuzy trying to be a hero and here we go.

They were due to a loss, so all is good in the world

What??? Did you even watch the play? It was all on Kuzy

 

[Langway]

The Mantha hate is another failing of the eye test. Stop watching the games!

I don't know. The analytics across the board seem pretty poor for him in this one also. The lack of any sort of second gear is extremely frustrating to watch in more intense tilts. There's a craft in his game that I respect but...come on. Show some urgency now and then at least. If nothing else then to change it up and make yourself less predictable. That alone would make me open to swaps for someone that comes closer to giving you everything they have.

Orlov was extremely casual in this one, esp. early. The blueline overall is bound to struggle picking up Carlson's minutes. TVR on the PP? I get maybe letting Jensen rest a bit but not a great idea. Combine that with not using Jensen much in OT either and you wonder what they're thinking in a contract year. Curious for a player that's largely been extremely reliable.

Fehervary's return can't come soon enough but even with him I'm not sure the third pair will earn enough TOI to not risk burning out the top four.

 

[YippieKaey]

Not to pile up too much on Mantha but there was a sequence in the second where he had the opportunity to absolutely flatten an OTT defender, instead he chooses to slow down and gently nudge the opposing dman even though at the monent he was F1 and we were getting caved in due to the opponents forecheck and physicality. A winger that big simply needs to use his size more assertively in a game like this.

Sometimes it makes sense to let up a bit but in a game like this where there is an element of team identity on the line and basically playing for a playoff spot there needs to be much more of a killer instinct.

I feel a losing streak incoming.

Also Kuzy.........

 

[twabby]

I don't know. The analytics across the board seem pretty poor for him in this one also. The lack of any sort of second gear is extremely frustrating to watch in more intense tilts. There's a craft in his game that I respect but...come on. Show some urgency now and then at least. If nothing else then to change it up and make yourself less predictable. That alone would make me open to swaps for someone that comes closer to giving you everything they have.

Orlov was extremely casual in this one, esp. early. The blueline overall is bound to struggle picking up Carlson's minutes. TVR on the PP? I get maybe letting Jensen rest a bit but not a great idea. Combine that with not using Jensen much in OT either and you wonder what they're thinking in a contract year. Curious for a player that's largely been extremely reliable.

Fehervary's return can't come soon enough but even with him I'm not sure the third pair will earn enough TOI to not risk burning out the top four.

Oh he had a horrible game, even by last night's low standards across the board.

But I feel like the general negative feelings toward Mantha are based almost entirely on stylistic reasons. He's big but not overly physical. I think that's the extent of it. If he were 5'11" and put up the exact same performances I doubt anyone would talk about trading him.

If there's hockey trade available to make the team better and his $5.7 million is what it takes to make it work then I'm for it. But I don't think that's why people are talking about trading him. They just don't like how he looks out there, even if his impact on goal differential is still among the best on the team.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Oh he had a horrible game, even by last night's low standards across the board.

But I feel like the general negative feelings toward Mantha are based almost entirely on stylistic reasons. He's big but not overly physical. I think that's the extent of it. If he were 5'11" and put up the exact same performances I doubt anyone would talk about trading him.

If there's hockey trade available to make the team better and his $5.7 million is what it takes to make it work then I'm for it. But I don't think that's why people are talking about trading him. They just don't like how he looks out there, even if his impact on goal differential is still among the best on the team.

Yup….people have misguided expectations….dude just isn’t the type of player people want when they see him.

If he was a small guy and brought the exact same thing, complaints would be more limited to “he needs to produce” (a bit more)…..

 

[ClevelandCapsfan]

Oh he had a horrible game, even by last night's low standards across the board.

But I feel like the general negative feelings toward Mantha are based almost entirely on stylistic reasons. He's big but not overly physical. I think that's the extent of it. If he were 5'11" and put up the exact same performances I doubt anyone would talk about trading him.

If there's hockey trade available to make the team better and his $5.7 million is what it takes to make it work then I'm for it. But I don't think that's why people are talking about trading him. They just don't like how he looks out there, even if his impact on goal differential is still among the best on the team.

This argument makes no sense to me. You expect players with small frames to be crafty and use speed and finesse to compensate. Similarly, a guy with an imposing frame/size should use it to his advantage. You don’t want Mantha to play Sheary’s style. If Mantha isn’t going to score, he should at least throw his weight around.

 

[Langway]

It's not even the lack of physicality so much as the complete lack of a second gear. He relies so much on his reach/frame/hands to do the work rather than his legs. If he was 5'11'' relying on reach primarily I don't know that he'd be in the league. He'd have to use one of those Keith Aucoin sticks and even then the angles would be different.

The player is fine and not their biggest issue but if he was the most convenient player to swap out for a Meier or someone like that I'd make the deal without much hesitation. He's always going to be a bit underwhelming most likely given his raw potential.

 

[YippieKaey]

Comparing Mantha and Sheary is interesting. If Mantha played with Shearys hustle he would be a first line winger. On the other hand, if Mantha was Shearys size he might barely be in the league.

 

[HeyMattyB]

With Mantha, I can appreciate the "what if's" and other wishful thinking, but this is the same player he's always been. Red Wings fans had the exact same complaints during his entire time in Detroit. He uses his size and reach to effectively protect the puck, but doesn't use his size to hit people. He plays well positionally but has a lazy-looking skating stride and should "hustle" more. He has a great shot but isn't great at creating his own chances. He's very streaky, and when he's on he looks like the dominant player you want him to be full-time, but when he's off he looks like a listless passenger. Oh, and he's got an annoying habit of excessively chewing on his mouth guard, and if he'd just stop devoting all that energy to chomping on that piece of plastic, he'd obviously be a better player.

The only new complaint is that, based on his last two goalless post-seasons with the Caps, we worry that he won't show up for the future playoffs, but Detroit fans have nothing to say on that front, because the Wings never made the playoffs during Mantha's tenure.

He's 28 years old, and this is his seventh full year in the league. This is the same frustrating player he's always been, and the same frustrating player he's always going to be. At best, surrounded with the right players and given the right ice time, he's a 25g/25a player (a mark he's never actually hit; he topped out at 48 points twice). He's a complimentary top-six winger and he's going to leave you wanting more even when he's producing well on a good contract.

I really like the guy, but also find myself frustrated with him. I've just come to terms with the fact that this is who he is. I'm not hoping for untapped potential or for him to suddenly make major changes to how he plays the game.

 

[Hivemind]

Just because a player is a particular size shouldn't dictate how they have to play on the ice. If a player is effective, they're effective. Don't force them to change their game just because you expect them to play a certain way due to their size.

To use a couple extreme examples - imagine if people expected the 6'4" Joe Thornton to throw his weight around instead of focusing on slowing the game down and making plays. Or if people told the (generously) 5'9" Brad Marchand to play with finesse instead of being a miniature bowling ball? Should we panning the 6'5" Blake Wheeler for having his back-to-back 91 point seasons the "wrong way" by being a playmaker and transition threat rather than a power forward?

I'm not nearly as defensive of Mantha's performance as twabby (I think Mantha deserves to take some heat during his prolonged slumps, although he also deserves praise during his peaks). But I agree with his point that a lot of the disatisfaction towards Mantha's play is rooted in the style fans expect him to play, rather than actual poor performances. People expect something else from him, and get upset when they don't see it.

 

[max21]

It doesn’t really matter what style of play people are expecting him to play, he’s getting 5.7 for numbers similar to Milano. He’s not doing enough

 

[ClevelandCapsfan]

Just because a player is a particular size shouldn't dictate how they have to play on the ice. If a player is effective, they're effective. Don't force them to change their game just because you expect them to play a certain way due to their size.

To use a couple extreme examples - imagine if people expected the 6'4" Joe Thornton to throw his weight around instead of focusing on slowing the game down and making plays. Or if people told the (generously) 5'9" Brad Marchand to play with finesse instead of being a miniature bowling ball? Should we panning the 6'5" Blake Wheeler for having his back-to-back 91 point seasons the "wrong way" by being a playmaker and transition threat rather than a power forward?

I'm not nearly as defensive of Mantha's performance as twabby (I think Mantha deserves to take some heat during his prolonged slumps, although he also deserves praise during his peaks). But I agree with his point that a lot of the disatisfaction towards Mantha's play is rooted in the style fans expect him to play, rather than actual poor performances. People expect something else from him, and get upset when they don't see it.

Mantha having a 91-point season is alas a pipe dream for Caps fans.

 

[Hivemind]

Mantha having a 91-point season is alas a pipe dream for Caps fans.

You don't need to be a 91 point player to be effective, though.

 

[twabby]

I'm not even against trading Mantha if the right deal comes up for an impact player. He makes a lot of sense as a trade piece given his contract, lack of trade protection, and the fact that he's an even-strength only player whose overall impact is going to be limited because he isn't going to play on PP1 or even PP2 most nights due to a coaching decision.

I just don't get the vitriol against him as a player. If you're mad at what they gave up for him then be upset at MacLellan/Laviolette. This isn't Jaromir Jagr who dogged it when he came to Washington. This is the same player he's always been.

Spoiler: Mantha player card 2020-2023

Spoiler: Mantha player card 2022-2023

I guess I just care about winning (and Ovechkin goals). Mantha helps the team win. He doesn't take penalties. People don't really give him credit for his defensive game. He tilts the ice. He scores at the same rate as guys like Conor Sheary, Evgeny Kuznetsov, and Tom Wilson. He's never going to be a superstar but he's a perfectly good top 6 winger.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Comparing Mantha and Sheary is interesting. If Mantha played with Shearys hustle he would be a first line winger. On the other hand, if Mantha was Shearys size he might barely be in the league.

a Sheary-sized Mantha putting up ~20g/~47pts per 82 games (and his other impacts)would be doing juuuuuuuust fine in the NHL.

Wouldn’t be making the same coin, but it’s laughable suggesting he would be struggling to stay in the league.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm not even against trading Mantha if the right deal comes up for an impact player. He makes a lot of sense as a trade piece given his contract, lack of trade protection, and the fact that he's an even-strength only player whose overall impact is going to be limited because he isn't going to play on PP1 or even PP2 most nights due to a coaching decision.

I just don't get the vitriol against him as a player. If you're mad at what they gave up for him then be upset at MacLellan/Laviolette. This isn't Jaromir Jagr who dogged it when he came to Washington. This is the same player he's always been.

Spoiler: Mantha player card 2020-2023

View attachment 628225

Spoiler: Mantha player card 2022-2023

View attachment 628224

I guess I just care about winning (and Ovechkin goals). Mantha helps the team win. He doesn't take penalties. People don't really give him credit for his defensive game. He tilts the ice. He scores at the same rate as guys like Conor Sheary, Evgeny Kuznetsov, and Tom Wilson. He's never going to be a superstar but he's a perfectly good top 6 winger.

I don’t get the lenses some are seeing Mantha in. I agree with you.

It doesn’t really matter what style of play people are expecting him to play, he’s getting 5.7 for numbers similar to Milano. He’s not doing enough

Now that we can agree on……but he’s not the bum some are making him out to be either.