Randall Graves*
Guest
How does winning a 4th cup and a Conn Smythe in addition to everything else he's done in his career affect his standing amongst defensemen in NHL history?
4 cups is a BIG BIG achievement.
but where will he end up in a best ever defensemen ranking? top 10?
OMFG no... But I guess you'll be the one picking him the first round of the next all-time draft.Top 25-30
imho....
Top 25-30 defensemen, not players.OMFG no... But I guess you'll be the one picking him the first round of the next all-time draft.
Chris Pronger was better than Scott Niedermayer this postseason but his suspensions (like that of any Duck save perhaps Pahlsson) didn't make a dang bit of difference in the outcome of the defensive-strategied Ducks' game plan. That's why Chris didn't get the Conn Smythe, because his suspensions proved he wasn't totally necessary. The fact is, if Scott had been suspended, the Ducks would have kept on winning as well.
Scott shouldn't be a stitch higher in the history of hockey hierarchy as a result of being given the Conn Smythe: shouldn't be any higher whatsoever.
Among the Top-30 hockey players of all time? How long have you held that view?
Top 50? Maaaayyyyybe. Top-100 sure.
Ah,... ohhhh-kay... we're on the same page ( I see now )Defensemen only!!!!!
Chris Pronger was better than Scott Niedermayer this postseason but his suspensions (like that of any Duck save perhaps Pahlsson) didn't make a dang bit of difference in the outcome of the defensive-strategied Ducks' game plan. That's why Chris didn't get the Conn Smythe, because his suspensions proved he wasn't totally necessary. The fact is, if Scott had been suspended, the Ducks would have kept on winning as well.
By far, actually...Not to say that Pronger isn't great but out played niedermayer...no way.
By far, actually...
It's amazing how opinions turn once the trophy is given out.
RallyKiller, this is the icing on the cake for a sure first ballot HOF'er.
He is a top 25 D of all time....
B.Orr
E.Shore
D.Harvey
Bourque
Potvin
Robinson
Kelly (C)
Lidstrom
Chelios
Park
Fetisov
Stevens
Coffey
MacInnis
T.Horton
Pilote
D.Clapper
E.Seibert
Pronger
Leetch
S.Niedermayer
King Clancy is definitely the most "conspicuous by his absence" player on that list. The other players who really stands out as missing are Bill Gadsby and Sprague Cleghorn. All three should definitely be ahead of Niedermayer, and Pronger and Leetch, for that matter.where is King Clancy and George Boucher in your list?
World Junior Champion, Memorial Cup Champion, World Champion, Olympic Champion, Stanley Cup Champion (x4), World Cup Champion, Conn Smythe Winner, Norris Trophy winner.
Joe Sakic I think has met your first paragraph criteria (using the Hart as 'best forward')I'd be interested to know who's in the class of winners that have won each of the World Juniors, World Championships, Olympics, Stanley Cup, World Cup, and an NHL award for being the top player at their position.
I've eliminated the Memorial Cup and Conn Smythe from the question - many players don't go the major junior route, and the Conn Smythe might be a tad too limiting.
Joe Sakic I think has met your first paragraph criteria (using the Hart as 'best forward')
Iginla came pretty close in 04 (and he does have the Memorial cup also...although that pesky Stanley cup is kind of a big one that's missing,)
sure there are many others in the near miss category, but NIedermayers resume is incredible
Maybe the first three rounds but once Nieds ankle wasn't killing him, he was our best player during the finals I thought, not that Pronger played poorly but if the Ducks had lost game 4 we'd all be sitting here blaming Pronger for possibly losing the final, who was the guy that kept the team glued together? Scott Niedermayer, the lockerroom wanted blood after Alfie shot at him, and Niedermayer spoke up and made sure everyone stayed focused on the task at hand. He's a great leader, he wouldn't let personal vendettas effect the task at hand.OMFG no... But I guess you'll be the one picking him the first round of the next all-time draft.
Chris Pronger was better than Scott Niedermayer this postseason but his suspensions (like that of any Duck save perhaps Pahlsson) didn't make a dang bit of difference in the outcome of the defensive-strategied Ducks' game plan. That's why Chris didn't get the Conn Smythe, because his suspensions proved he wasn't totally necessary. The fact is, if Scott had been suspended, the Ducks would have kept on winning as well.
Scott shouldn't be a stitch higher in the history of hockey hierarchy as a result of being given the Conn Smythe: shouldn't be any higher whatsoever.
Among the Top-30 hockey players of all time? How long have you held that view?
Top 50? Maaaayyyyybe. Top-100 sure.
i agree with everything you say here,Maybe the first three rounds but once Nieds ankle wasn't killing him, he was our best player during the finals I thought, not that Pronger played poorly but if the Ducks had lost game 4 we'd all be sitting here blaming Pronger for possibly losing the final, who was the guy that kept the team glued together? Scott Niedermayer, the lockerroom wanted blood after Alfie shot at him, and Niedermayer spoke up and made sure everyone stayed focused on the task at hand. He's a great leader, he wouldn't let personal vendettas effect the task at hand.
By far, actually...
It's amazing how opinions turn once the trophy is given out.
King Clancy is definitely the most "conspicuous by his absence" player on that list. The other players who really stands out as missing are Bill Gadsby and Sprague Cleghorn. All three should definitely be ahead of Niedermayer, and Pronger and Leetch, for that matter.
I'm trying hard not to be a homer, but I really think Leetch gets a raw deal when ranking defenseman.
He played on a horrible Rangers team for a long time and was only one of the few specks of gold on an otherwise unpolished turd. And I really think that that skews the view of him all-time. One of the best two-way guys around (and one who, for some reason, is bashed on defense a lot when in all reality he was about as steady as they come for an offensively geared player in his own zone).
If he had played on well constructed and even just decent teams, outside fo the few successful years the Rangers enjoyed in the early to mid 90s, he'd be ranked a lot higher than he's seen.