Salary cap ideas on reforms

[TGWL]

What happens if the player is traded again. Do they lose the player to the original team?
You can't do that to a player. We're trading you for 2-3 years and then you'll be back here. So don't sell your house!!

 

[TGWL]

I always believed if you drafted a player and developed them you should get a break on the cap.

For example 10-20% off against the cap.

All that time in the minors and time should give teams a break.

I really disagree with this. I know some fans are tired of seeing players they liked moved for cap reasons but I don't think this is the answer. We'll say you lucked into a top 5 pick because your team was awful. You fired your coach. You lost the last 2 weeks. Whatever the reason. Now you draft a player who turns into a stud and is commanding 9+ million right after the ELC, the team should get 10-20% cap break? How about you just drafted the #1 twice in 4 years because you can't seem to ever get out of the basement - that team should be rewarded with a cap saving on 2 studs?

Even if you say they spent some time in the AHL, college, or juniors, it seems to benefit the teams at the bottom, or were once at the bottom, rather than the non-contending teams that are always pushing to the cap and re-tooling. And 10% on a mid-contract isn't the same as 10% on a high-end contract.

The total salary will be different than the cap. Buyouts would become an issue because you still owe the full money making it potentially not worth the cap saving. Trading that player would require the real cap hit. I don't really think this is the way to go.

 

[Bust]

It didn't shift anything to other teams, all teams have to abide by the hard cap. It doesn't create any imbalance, it forces all teams to the same salary limitations.

Fan spending has no bearing on league balance.

The tax thing is literally fans of shitty teams whining about why their teams sucks without looking at the real reasons. If the tax thing was such a huge advantage, the only teams that would be winning the cup would be Dallas, Tampa, Florida, Vegas and Seattle in the cap era, and as has been shown, that really isn't the case. Dallas up until the past couple years has mostly been irrelevant, Tampa had a run then fell to obscurity till a few years ago and are already trending back into bubble team, Florida is just starting to show up, Vegas had what has to have been one of the oddest inception drafts/player build ups I've ever seen.

Two countries is meaningless, players all paid in USD. It's not like Canadian teams take a 36% hit because their players are paid in CAD. If anything, the disparity in USD to CAD benefits Canadian team players.

Players have tax accountants and money managers that put them in the best tax advantaged situation possible. But again, fan spending has no bearing on balance. The real imbalances occur where coaching, scouting and non ice related costs are. Big market teams can spend significantly more to lure coaches, GMs, scouts, and analytics people than small market teams and despite that disparity, those same big market teams are still mostly non factors.

Now you are wrong. “The tax thing is fans of shitty teams”..? What kind of like-farming, crock of shit is that?

It’s created imbalances. Tax advantages are real. Regardless of what fans of small market teams here want to admit. There would be no need for tax accountants/money managers (as you put it) if the playing field was even.

You literally listed the most successful teams of the last 4-5 seasons and a team that went to the finals last year, poised to do the same this year. All “tax haven” teams that have massively benefited from their tax advantages. You think Kucherov signs the same deal in MTL? What about Tkachuk in CGY?

Mark Methot literally said he would have been taxed approx 15% higher plying in Ottawa than Dallas a couple years ago.. is he a fan of a “shitty team whining about why his team sucks”? Maybe he needs to read your post about “money managers”? Or maybe, you (and other fans on here) don’t completely understand what you’re talking about regarding tax variances from country to country.

Don’t sit here and talk about balance when it’s an unbalanced system. It’s not balanced. It wasn’t here to create balance. Balance has been shifted from profitable pre-cap teams having benefits, to post-cap tax free states having benefits. Trying to pretend that’s not a reality is ridiculous.

 

[KeydGV21]

What happens if the player is traded again. Do they lose the player to the original team?
You can't do that to a player. We're trading you for 2-3 years and then you'll be back here. So don't sell your house!!

What do you mean traded again? By the original team or the team that is borrowing him?

Your second argument is negligible, at best. Players are already on short term deals, two way deals, traded as a deadline rental…it isn’t like a player loan would be that drastic of upheaval compared to what players already deal with…

 

[TGWL]

What do you mean traded again? By the original team or the team that is borrowing him?

Your second argument is negligible, at best. Players are already on short term deals, two way deals, traded as a deadline rental…it isn’t like a player loan would be that drastic of upheaval compared to what players already deal with…

The original team trades a player with a 5 year contract remaining, but only for 3 years. So what happens if that player is traded from the "borrowing team"? Are you saying that team is glued to that player now for 3 years and then will return their shiny used toy back to the original team after 3 years, hopefully in working condition?

2 way deals and being traded at the deadline isn't the same thing and telling a player to pack their shit, sell their house, but go house hunting again in 3 years because we're bringing you back is very bush league. In some leagues players on loan can't play against the team that still holds the contract rights.

 

[Qwijibo]

The original team trades a player with a 5 year contract remaining, but only for 3 years. So what happens if that player is traded from the "borrowing team"? Are you saying that team is glued to that player now for 3 years and then will return their shiny used toy back to the original team after 3 years, hopefully in working condition?

2 way deals and being traded at the deadline isn't the same thing and telling a player to pack their shit, sell their house, but go house hunting again in 3 years because we're bringing you back is very bush league. In some leagues players on loan can't play against the team that still holds the contract rights.

Yeah. It's a completely unworkable idea. Not only for the reasons you outlined, but for the simple fact that a teams roster ci structure can change drastically in 3 years (or whatever the term is). You think it's a nightmare making moves now? Imagine having to plan around having to take back a player after a certain period that nay not fit the teams concept at that point. Or worse yet maybe the team can't even fit the players cap hit in at that point. No sugar coating it. It's a ridiculous idea

 

[KeydGV21]

The original team trades a player with a 5 year contract remaining, but only for 3 years. So what happens if that player is traded from the "borrowing team"? Are you saying that team is glued to that player now for 3 years and then will return their shiny used toy back to the original team after 3 years, hopefully in working condition?

2 way deals and being traded at the deadline isn't the same thing and telling a player to pack their shit, sell their house, but go house hunting again in 3 years because we're bringing you back is very bush league. In some leagues players on loan can't play against the team that still holds the contract rights.

And in others they can…but that is irrelevant to the players housing situation…which, once again, players live like this constantly anyways…

In your scenario if a player being traded while out on loan, it would be whatever the 3 teams decide is fair value for another move…

 

[GCK]

Some CBA changes I’d like to see are

1. Cap calculation is based on top 20 contracts in the organization only.

2. Every team must fill their 23 man rosters at all times.

3. LTIR only applies to season ending injuries, if a player is placed on LTIR they are done until the next season.

4. Performance bonuses can be applied to any 1 year contract.

5. Contract length changed to 6 and 7 years from 7 and 8 years.

6. Offer sheet compensation changed with every level pushed down. For example top level compensation is currently 4 x 1sts, it would become 2 x 1sts + 2nd + 3rd

7. Offer sheet calculation would be based on AAV, removing the 5 year rule.

8. All NTCs and NMCs removed in exchange for UFA at 26 regardless of service unless player started at 18 where it becomes 25.

9. Arbitration eligibility begins immediately post ELC.

10. Waiver exemption ends post ELC.

11. Minimum salary bumped by 150K with same escalators.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Now you are wrong. “The tax thing is fans of shitty teams”..? What kind of like-farming, crock of shit is that?

It’s created imbalances. Tax advantages are real. Regardless of what fans of small market teams here want to admit. There would be no need for tax accountants/money managers (as you put it) if the playing field was even.

You literally listed the most successful teams of the last 4-5 seasons and a team that went to the finals last year, poised to do the same this year. All “tax haven” teams that have massively benefited from their tax advantages. You think Kucherov signs the same deal in MTL? What about Tkachuk in CGY?

Mark Methot literally said he would have been taxed approx 15% higher plying in Ottawa than Dallas a couple years ago.. is he a fan of a “shitty team whining about why his team sucks”? Maybe he needs to read your post about “money managers”? Or maybe, you (and other fans on here) don’t completely understand what you’re talking about regarding tax variances from country to country.

Don’t sit here and talk about balance when it’s an unbalanced system. It’s not balanced. It wasn’t here to create balance. Balance has been shifted from profitable pre-cap teams having benefits, to post-cap tax free states having benefits. Trying to pretend that’s not a reality is ridiculous.

The tax difference is marginal at best. People who make millions a year have lots of ways of tax avoidance. Hell, I have lots of ways of tax avoidance. There are all kinds of ways money is sheltered, offset etc. And the fact they make millions a year is why they have money managers and tax accountants, not because of a cap or any other reason, it's because they are hockey players and not accountants/finance people. I don't make anywhere near what they do and I utilize both as it's not my area of specialization.

Any player who thinks they understand their tax situation to reduce it to "15% more" is a fool and hopefully seeks professional guidance/assistance. I only have to deal with 3 states for Income tax + federal, I can't imagine having to deal with 2 countries for "federal" and then 5 providences, and 19 or so states. The odds Methot does his own taxes are probably similar to how often he gets audited. Ie if he's doing them himself, the IRS probably has an annual meeting with him to review just how messed up he is.

Ohnoes, the cap has been in place for what 19 seasons now and we just now see a few tax free state environments competing at the same time? Yea, it's not the deal you think it is and your attempt at overemphasizing it says you're most likely a Toronto fan that hasn't come to terms yet with how mid your "all star players" are.

 

[rsteen]

I think ultimately we’ll see some kind of cap/contract reform. In some respects the PA loves contracts like Huberdeau’s because it means big, guaranteed salaries for the players.

But the flipside is players are stuck with a team if their play doesn’t warrant their contract. Huberdeau is miserable in Calgary. But because of that contract he’ll never be able to leave. It’s great for him financially, but I think he’d negate it and sign for less elsewhere if he could. At the moment that’s not an option.

It is an option. Zadina did it.

If Huberdeau went to Calgary and said he wanted to mutually terminate the contract, the fax machine would burst into flames with how fast Conroy would get that filed with the NHL. But he must want to keep his bag more than he wants to move.

 

[ShaneinTpa]

I really disagree with this. I know some fans are tired of seeing players they liked moved for cap reasons but I don't think this is the answer. We'll say you lucked into a top 5 pick because your team was awful. You fired your coach. You lost the last 2 weeks. Whatever the reason. Now you draft a player who turns into a stud and is commanding 9+ million right after the ELC, the team should get 10-20% cap break? How about you just drafted the #1 twice in 4 years because you can't seem to ever get out of the basement - that team should be rewarded with a cap saving on 2 studs?

Even if you say they spent some time in the AHL, college, or juniors, it seems to benefit the teams at the bottom, or were once at the bottom, rather than the non-contending teams that are always pushing to the cap and re-tooling. And 10% on a mid-contract isn't the same as 10% on a high-end contract.

The total salary will be different than the cap. Buyouts would become an issue because you still owe the full money making it potentially not worth the cap saving. Trading that player would require the real cap hit. I don't really think this is the way to go.

I see both sides of that argument, but I also see a happy medium here. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with cap relief on any player that is signed to his second contract if he was drafted outside of the first round. I also don’t see a problem, if you get some cap relief signing a first round draft pick to his third contract. Of course the percentages would have to be ironed out where they made sense but there still some logic to this. Way too often teams that don’t draft well get the benefit. I’m signing somebody else’s star without having to do any of the heavy lifting. There’s a lot more wrong with that.

 

[cowboy82nd]

That seems like a you problem

Not when he’s on a hockey board.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You know any relegation leagues that have drafts?

Would be a great strategy to banish the top prospect to the 2nd division every year

Premier league, drafts a player from a relegated team, top players don’t end up in second division.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Premier league, drafts a player from a relegated team, top players don’t end up in second division.

No it doesn't

 

[Golden_Jet]

No it doesn't

was a suggestion, as a good way to keep players from going down, guess needed the sarcasm emoji. Should be implemented.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

was a suggestion, as a good way to keep players from going down, guess needed the sarcasm emoji. Should be implemented.

No you googled it and read the athletic article suggesting that it should be a thing and you thought it was real

Premier League 2023-24 draft: Each team gets one pick from Southampton, Leeds or Leicester

Which one player should Luton sign from the relegated clubs? And how about Man City? Welcome to the 2023-24 Premier League draft...

www.nytimes.com

 

[Golden_Jet]

No you googled it and read the athletic article suggesting that it should be a thing and you thought it was real

Premier League 2023-24 draft: Each team gets one pick from Southampton, Leeds or Leicester

Which one player should Luton sign from the relegated clubs? And how about Man City? Welcome to the 2023-24 Premier League draft...

www.nytimes.com

Great idea in article, I was facetious, just playing with ya, and the dumb relegation leagues.

 

[Gaud]

The tax difference is marginal at best. People who make millions a year have lots of ways of tax avoidance. Hell, I have lots of ways of tax avoidance. There are all kinds of ways money is sheltered, offset etc. And the fact they make millions a year is why they have money managers and tax accountants, not because of a cap or any other reason, it's because they are hockey players and not accountants/finance people. I don't make anywhere near what they do and I utilize both as it's not my area of specialization.

Any player who thinks they understand their tax situation to reduce it to "15% more" is a fool and hopefully seeks professional guidance/assistance. I only have to deal with 3 states for Income tax + federal, I can't imagine having to deal with 2 countries for "federal" and then 5 providences, and 19 or so states. The odds Methot does his own taxes are probably similar to how often he gets audited. Ie if he's doing them himself, the IRS probably has an annual meeting with him to review just how messed up he is.

Ohnoes, the cap has been in place for what 19 seasons now and we just now see a few tax free state environments competing at the same time? Yea, it's not the deal you think it is and your attempt at overemphasizing it says you're most likely a Toronto fan that hasn't come to terms yet with how mid your "all star players" are.

Of course folks have tax people to help them save each penny, and im sure different environments have different breaks, but i wouldn't go as far saying that this evens things out in terms of exemptions between low and high tax states. Cap friendly has a neat tax calculator that puts all this in perspective; a 10M contract may actually bring you close to a million more in your pocket depending which market you choose. HR Block will not give you that whole amount back.

If i was a free agent, the contract amounts being offered would definitely be one of my considerations; i mean of course the higher amount would be more appealing. So if i am looking at the gross, why doesn't it make sense to look at the net amount?

I would like to see this looked at for sure, over an 80M$ cap , this can mean something like 8M that some teams have to play with more than others.

Also, f*** the leafs!

 

[Svechhammer]

hmmmm lending players to other teams to pay while retaining their cap hit. Gee, I wonder who this might benefit the most? It certainly wouldn't be the teams in the largest markets who can afford more like we see with every attempted 'fix' of the cap, nooooo that can't be it....

 

[Toby91ca]

soft cap would surely help the league make more profits

How?

 

[Team Cozens]

I have always thought that if they want competative balance then there needs to be different Cap levels for differenct Tiers. IE - Destination teams have an advantage and should be lower. Origianal 6 Teams have an advantage and should be lower. Look at teams that have all the no trade clauses... they should be higher to be competitive.

EXAMPLE ONLY:

Destination teams:
VEGAS - 80,000,000
FLORIDA - 80,000,000
TAMPA - 80,000,000

Tax advantage Teams 83,000,000

Original 6 Teams - 85,000,0000 (Rangers, Red Wings, Leafs....)

Mid Tier - 90,000,000 Blues, Carolina, Seattle

Canadian Teams - 95,000,000 (lots of NTC) hard to sign UFA

Struggle destination 100,000,000 Sabres. (Every NTC)

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Great idea in article, I was facetious, just playing with ya, and the dumb relegation leagues.

all good

 

[dekelikekocur]

Of course folks have tax people to help them save each penny, and im sure different environments have different breaks, but i wouldn't go as far saying that this evens things out in terms of exemptions between low and high tax states. Cap friendly has a neat tax calculator that puts all this in perspective; a 10M contract may actually bring you close to a million more in your pocket depending which market you choose. HR Block will not give you that whole amount back.

If i was a free agent, the contract amounts being offered would definitely be one of my considerations; i mean of course the higher amount would be more appealing. So if i am looking at the gross, why doesn't it make sense to look at the net amount?

I would like to see this looked at for sure, over an 80M$ cap , this can mean something like 8M that some teams have to play with more than others.

Also, f*** the leafs!

What cap friendly lacks is all of the various write-offs, deductions, investment structures and so on and what player uses what. Without seeing a year end tax return, none of us really know what they pay.

The net is entirely dependent on the above mentioned. Yes, tax accounts/finance people can figure that out for you, but that information typically isn't privy to the league/team.

 

[Gaud]

How?

by capitalizing on maximizing revenues in big markets. I am against removing the cap in favor of having a system where bigger markets can surpass that cap in return for a "luxury tax" because i prefer sportsmanship and competition that is coming from an equal footing.

However, i was conceding the point to pcruz that a soft cap would mean more revenues for the NHL and even more revenues for that team itself. In the MLB, it looks like the money is mostly spent on player programs and things like their retirement funds. Imagine you are in the biggest market in the NHL and your team looks really good this year and you are right up to the cap. Then your team goes and gets a 10M dollar game changer and surpasses the cap - that 10M is just an investment; the team will make much more than that back. The league will also make money off the hype (things like events in that city, jerzey sales, etc)

The hard cap helps smaller markets be able to compete; however, they also limit big markets in making money.

 

[4thline]

I'd like to see the RFA process changed.
Step 1- add a 1-2 year ELC extension/ team option that's matrix/slot based
Step 2- remove the right match Offersheets for RFA's that have had their option expire

For the option team can either negotiate a standard SPC as they do now, or elect to exercise their ELC option. Players do not have RFA rights upon conclusion of ELC

ELC option calculates the players contract via formula, something like the greater of the their actual year 3 earnings x 1.2, or their hypothetical earnings if they were eligible for all schedule A&B bonuses, at Schedule rates. Player elects 1 or 2 years.

Upon conclusion of either a negotiated SPC that doesn't get them to UFA, or their ELC option, the player is an RFA subject to offersheet, but the team can't match.