Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Defensemen)

[Canadiens1958]

Reality

There is no real perception in sweden when it comes to media. There is no hockey news or in-depth analysis. No one except true fans watches NHL games regularly, not even journalists, they get their news from american media and spins it so they get headlines like "Sedins crushed the Blackhawks" or "Oduya hailed by his coach" when in reality the coach basically said "Oduya had a good game".

You are not talking about two extremes you are talking about ignorance.

Talking about hockey reality now.

Over the years I have had the pleasure of meeting and discussing hockey with amateur hockey coaches and administrators, parents, fans etc when they came to Canada or I had a chance to travel, from the various hockey playing countries in Europe as well as the different regions of Canada and the USA.

The European fans are significantly more knowledgeable than you allow. There are various differences in perception about hockey and players but these differences between Swedish and Canadian fans are no different in origin than the differences between Quebec, Ontario and western Canada hockey followers about the merits of different systems, players, approaches, etc.

Just recognize things for what they are.

 

[jkrx]

Talking about hockey reality now.

Over the years I have had the pleasure of meeting and discussing hockey with amateur hockey coaches and administrators, parents, fans etc when they came to Canada or I had a chance to travel, from the various hockey playing countries in Europe as well as the different regions of Canada and the USA.

The European fans are significantly more knowledgeable than you allow. There are various differences in perception about hockey and players but these differences between Swedish and Canadian fans are no different in origin than the differences between Quebec, Ontario and western Canada hockey followers about the merits of different systems, players, approaches, etc.

Just recognize things for what they are.

...and these people told you that Kenny Jönsson in a top-4 defenseman in Swedish history?

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

...and these people told you that Kenny Jönsson in a top-4 defenseman in Swedish history?

Read the pertinent quote from plusandminus.

Discussions with Europeans or others do not focus on rankings. The most common discussion is how skills fit to specific NHL teams and systems followed by a very precise understanding as to why Slaming and Lidstrom were best suited for the NHL game while others were best for the international game.

Here the issue seems to be finding an edge for rating a favourite higher.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

More on Round 2, Part 1 voting:

• Bobby Orr was not a unanimous #1 in Round 1 of voting, but he was unanimous in Round 2
• While Lidstrom had the biggest spread of overall votes, he made the top 5 rather comfortably
• 13/17 voters ranked Lidstrom in their top 5
• The number of voters who ranked Lidstrom higher than 5th (7) was greater than the number who ranked him lower than 5th (4)
• only two voters ranked Lidstrom over Bourque

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ah, the votes are here - thanks!

Not sure how anyone can think Lidstrom is still not Top 5.

I had him 6th.

I put much more weight on peak than longevity.

I think Potvin & Bourque were better players based on what I saw.

I think Harvey & Shore were better players based on what I heard about them.

 

[Pear Juice]

There is no real perception in sweden when it comes to media. There is no hockey news or in-depth analysis. No one except true fans watches NHL games regularly, not even journalists, they get their news from american media and spins it so they get headlines like "Sedins crushed the Blackhawks" or "Oduya hailed by his coach" when in reality the coach basically said "Oduya had a good game".

You are not talking about two extremes you are talking about ignorance.

This is doing a disservice to Swedish hockey journalists. They are few, but I don't think they're all bad. First and foremost, it is important to consider how the main sporting news media outlets in Sweden works.

We have semi-tabloid daily newspapers (Aftonbladet & Expressen) who are the most read media outlets reporting on sports news in Sweden. I am not aware if this exists in the USA, it probably origins in England. These newspapers usually employ well educated bloggers and specialized respected journalists. The daily articles however usually lack any kind of depth analysis. The sensationalism has nothing to do with them not watching the games, they sensationalize all kinds of news, it's part of their journalistic style. Also, usually a headline can be a lot more sensationalized than the actual article as the headline editor, not the acutal journalist sets the headline. The headline editor usually lacks hockey knowledge and just sets a headline that will sell to the general sports enthusiast.

We currently have a sports network (Viasat) that airs every single game. The journalists working at Viasat are obviously well educated.

There are several journalists in Sweden who watch numerous NHL games on a daily basis. Expressen has blogger Linus Hugosson who is also an editor for Pro Hockey Magazine, europe's biggest NHL magazine. Aftonbladet has blogger Per Bjurman who resides in New York and follows the Rangers particularly closely.

Considering the extreme hassle it is for anyone living in Europe to follow the NHL really closely (it's nearly impossible if you want to maintain an ordinary job) I think they do a good job.

You just got to know what and who to read, and what to take with a grain of salt.

 

[plusandminus]

Since I'm being quoted, I think I should explain myself.
I think DerKaiser understood me relatively well.
The Lidstrom case may be similar to Annika Sorenstam, regarding being sort of more recognized in North America than in her home country. She arguably is the best female golfer ever, and seems to sort of finish higher on international votings regarding "best female athlete/sportswoman in the World", than on lists about "best Swedish female athlete/sportswoman". (In her case, it also hurts her that some don't even consider golf a sport.)
Kenny Jonsson is very favoured now, because he recently played his last seasons outside of NHL and therefore became much more visible to his domestic audience - playing in domestic league, for national team, etc. But, he may also be considered having outplayed a prime Lidstrom when the two were on the same team (2006 Olympics). That may make one wonder a bit about which player actually was the best of them. Career wise, Lidstrom is of course way way ahead of Kenny Jonsson.

Another thing I find interesting, but may not put forward very well, is Kenny Jonsson being elected best defenceman during the 2006 Olympics. In his case, it actually seems as if his NHL career (which was good, but not All Star like) hurts him. Based on the 2006 Olympics, he was the best player of them all, in the whole World, including NHL players. But that seems to get pretty much downplayed as "just one tournament". He's an internationally great player, who was probably not elite in the NHL. Other internationally great players (Suchy, Svedberg, Vasiliev, partly Fetisov, but maybe more guys like Tretiak, Charlamov, Holecek) never got to play in the NHL and is harder to judge. It seems as if more weight are being put on international accomplishments during the 1970s and 1980s than today. And yes, it's probably natural as the best Europeans (not all of them) nowadays plays in the NHL. Today, we can probably make much better judgements about European players compared to NHL players, than when they were on different continents. (However, we are still not able to know how they best NHL:ers would do in today's KHL. If it had been possible, I think the best think would be to watch all players play both NHL style and KHL style hockey, as I suspect some NHL stars wouldn't do as good in KHL.)
I'm not saying there is something wrong with how most here seem to focus. I'm just observing it. Kenny Jonsson may not be the best example.

Sorry for the amount of "Kenny Jonsson" recently. It's probably I who bring him up now and then, due to above reasons. I don't expect to see him being voteable within the next few weeks, or perhaps ever in this project. I basically thought of him as an interesting comparison case.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Results are almost identical to my top 10 list.
Only difference is I have Lidstrom in 4th and shore in 5th.

1- Bobby Orr
2- Doug Harvey
3- Ray Bourque
4- Nik Lidstrom
5- Eddie Shore
6- Denis Potvin
7- Red Kelly
8- Larry Robinson
9- Viacheslav Fetisov
10- Chris Chelios
----------------------------
11- Paul Coffey
12- Brad Park
13- Borje Salming
14- Scott Stevens
15- Chris Pronger
16 -Pierre Pilote
17- Serge Savard
18- Brian Leetch
19- Al MacInnis
20- Scott Niedermayer

 

[Hardyvan123]

Results are almost identical to my top 10 list.
Only difference is I have Lidstrom in 4th and shore in 5th.

1- Bobby Orr
2- Doug Harvey
3- Ray Bourque
4- Nik Lidstrom
5- Eddie Shore
6- Denis Potvin
7- Red Kelly
8- Larry Robinson
9- Viacheslav Fetisov
10- Chris Chelios
----------------------------
11- Paul Coffey
12- Brad Park
13- Borje Salming
14- Scott Stevens
15- Chris Pronger
16 -Pierre Pilote
17- Serge Savard
18- Brian Leetch
19- Al MacInnis
20- Scott Niedermayer

good list

I've decided not to look at the list I submitted when voting during the project as I want to view each 10 player set and look at them as a 10 player set with what I know already and after more consideration.

I'm positive that my list will be different at the end of the project than it was in the beginning.

 

[seventieslord]

Second thought was how Kelly seemed to slip, maybe his time at center hurt his case not sure how all voters treated him as a Dman.

I don't think he slipped, the rankings he received here are pretty much par for the course.

Potvin and Robinson sure seemed better than Lidstrom. Maybe I'm remembering the 70s more fondly than deserved.

I think so.

If Kenny Jonsson were to sign with the Red Wings for this season on a comeback contract, he wouldn't even be the fourth-best Swedish defenseman to have played for the Wings. Lidstrom, Salming, Kronwall, Olausson were/are all much better.

Olausson? The PP specialist who was usually his team's 4th/5th defenseman at even strength? Jonsson is considerably better.

 

[pdd]

Results are almost identical to my top 10 list.
15- Chris Pronger
18- Brian Leetch
19- Al MacInnis
20- Scott Niedermayer

I take issue with what you present here. Leetch won two Norrises and a Conn Smythe while Bourque, Chelios, and Coffey were still top defensemen.

MacInnis career differs from Pronger's in when it happened, and the fact that Pronger has a Hart to MacInnis' Conn Smythe. From 1998-99 through 2002-03, Al MacInnis significantly outplayed Chris Pronger as his teammate. It's hard to say that Pronger goes above MacInnis.

Pronger against Niedermayer is another interesting one; they started only one year askew. Both moved to the high-end of the defense spectrum around 1998. But Pronger managed to consistently play as a top-end defenseman; Niedermayer really only has his four year run of individual success from 2002-03 to 2006-07, as well as his team success when he was playing second fiddle to Stevens.

Those four belong more like this, assuming you just drop Pronger and move everyone else not mentioned up:

Leetch
MacInnis
Pronger
Niedermayer

And seriously... both because it always bothers me and because I can't stand to see a "top 20 All-Time defensemen" list with Niedermayer on it... where is Mark Howe? He was the next best defenseman in the league in the 80s after Bourque and Coffey.

Olausson? The PP specialist who was usually his team's 4th/5th defenseman at even strength? Jonsson is considerably better.

Olausson was typically one of his team's top two defensemen. Like in Anaheim, where he scored 56 points one year, while Ruslan Salei was second on the D with 16, and no other defenseman hit double-digits.

Olausson was by no means an All-Star. But he was a solid defenseman capable of putting up some points if he needed to be your workhorse QB. Jonsson was never more than a solid defensive defenseman with good puck skills who happened to play a lot.

 

[pdd]

I wouldnt go as far as saying Jönsson were equal to Eriksson. Jönsson was better defensively, offensively, had better leadership qualities and higer hockey IQ.

It's OT and the last I'll say about it, but Jonsson was definitely not more talented than Anders Eriksson offensively. In Jonsson's best offensive season (1997-98) he scored 20 points at ES in 81 games. Coincidentally, it was Eriksson's rookie year. He scored 16 ES points in only 66 games. And had better years offensively. And none of them involved playing even close to 17 minutes per game of ES time as Jonsson did in 1997-98. Or the 4 minutes of PP time.

As I said; Jonsson's advantage is his defensive game. Eriksson wins the offesive challenge.

/Jonsson

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why are you guys arguing about defensemen who haven't come up for vote yet in the "results" thread?

 

[seventieslord]

Olausson was typically one of his team's top two defensemen. Like in Anaheim, where he scored 56 points one year, while Ruslan Salei was second on the D with 16, and no other defenseman hit double-digits.

Olausson was by no means an All-Star. But he was a solid defenseman capable of putting up some points if he needed to be your workhorse QB. Jonsson was never more than a solid defensive defenseman with good puck skills who happened to play a lot.

Points don't determine who a team's top defenseman is.

There is a reason some players get more ice time than others.... coaches want to win hockey games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here are the results of Vote 2. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Denis Potvin |194|14|6|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Red Kelly |182|6|11|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Slava Fetisov |147|0|1|11|5|2|0|0|1|0|0
Larry Robinson |140|0|2|6|4|6|2|0|0|0|0
Chris Chelios |125|0|0|1|8|6|5|0|0|0|0
Brad Park |76|0|0|0|0|2|3|8|3|4|0
Paul Coffey |71|0|0|0|1|1|6|1|4|5|2
King Clancy |67|0|0|0|1|1|3|4|4|4|3
Pierre Pilote |63|0|0|0|0|2|0|6|6|3|3
Al MacInnis |35|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|2|4|12

 

[plusandminus]

Here are the results of Vote 2. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Denis Potvin |194|14|6|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Red Kelly |182|6|11|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Slava Fetisov |147|0|1|11|5|2|0|0|1|0|0
Larry Robinson |140|0|2|6|4|6|2|0|0|0|0
Chris Chelios |125|0|0|1|8|6|5|0|0|0|0
Brad Park |76|0|0|0|0|2|3|8|3|4|0
Paul Coffey |71|0|0|0|1|1|6|1|4|5|2
King Clancy |67|0|0|0|1|1|3|4|4|4|3
Pierre Pilote |63|0|0|0|0|2|0|6|6|3|3
Al MacInnis |35|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|2|4|12

Looks relatively expected. Potvin won by relatively large margin (exactly 14/20 voters seem to have had him ahead of Kelly). A bit sad to see Fetisov being closer to Robinson than to Potvin and Kelly. Chelios looks like a sold top 5 with 15 out of 20 putting him there. Top 5 guys in this round all were around last round, and all finished in the same position as then (I think).

Close results between Park, Coffey, Clancy and Pilote may indicate an exciting round to come, while MacInnis might not be top 5 next round.

 

[MXD]

Here are the results of Vote 2. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Denis Potvin |194|14|6|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Red Kelly |182|6|11|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Slava Fetisov |147|0|1|11|5|2|0|0|1|0|0
Larry Robinson |140|0|2|6|4|6|2|0|0|0|0
Chris Chelios |125|0|0|1|8|6|5|0|0|0|0
Brad Park |76|0|0|0|0|2|3|8|3|4|0
Paul Coffey |71|0|0|0|1|1|6|1|4|5|2
King Clancy |67|0|0|0|1|1|3|4|4|4|3
Pierre Pilote |63|0|0|0|0|2|0|6|6|3|3
Al MacInnis |35|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|2|4|12

You might have did it, but I also suggest putting this table at the top of the thread (as well as at the end of the thread...), just below the first table.

Thought Fetisov would have ended up between Chelly and Robinson. I'm still convinced he ranks below both of them.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

More on Round 2, Part 2 voting:

• For the second vote in a row, a near-consensus top 5 emerged. Will this be the last week this happens?
• Larry Robinson actually had a decently sized lead over Slava Fetisov for the 3rd spot in the early voting, but late votes broke hard for Fetisov
• 2 voters tried to vote on Thursday - 2 days early - and their votes were not accepted. They were both notified, but neither revoted. If their votes counted as they tried to vote, then Fetisov would have beat out Robinson by only 1 point. When they tried to vote, we really hadn't started talking about Fetisov in the discussion thread yet, an example of why there is an enforced no-vote period. (Note that one of these two voters only listed his top 5, so his vote wouldn't have been accepted even if he had voted in the alloted timeframe).
• On the other hand, if we were to only tabulate everyone's top 5 choices, rather than top 10, Fetisov's margin over Robinson would have grown from 7 to 14 points.

 

[plusandminus]

Larry Robinson actually had a decently sized lead over Slava Fetisov for the 3rd spot in the early voting, but late votes broke hard for Fetisov

How many of you participants were able to follow the voting standings as the votes came in? Is it you and Overpass?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You might have did it, but I also suggest putting this table at the top of the thread (as well as at the end of the thread...), just below the first table.

Good idea.

How many of you participants were able to follow the voting standings as the votes came in? Is it you and Overpass?

Just me. Overpass was heavily involved in tabulating the aggregate list from Round 1and may tabulate Round 2 votes in the future if I'm busy.

I didn't start tabulating votes until after I voted myself.

 

[plusandminus]

Just me. Overpass was heavily involved in tabulating the aggregate list from Round 1and may tabulate Round 2 votes in the future if I'm busy.

I didn't start tabulating votes until after I voted myself.

OK. I suppose the fewer the better. (And I actually think you would be allowed to change your mind anyway, if a discussion should bring forward things that makes you reconsider.)
Thanks for organizing this project.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looks relatively expected. Potvin won by relatively large margin (exactly 14/20 voters seem to have had him ahead of Kelly). A bit sad to see Fetisov being closer to Robinson than to Potvin and Kelly. Chelios looks like a sold top 5 with 15 out of 20 putting him there. Top 5 guys in this round all were around last round, and all finished in the same position as then (I think).

Close results between Park, Coffey, Clancy and Pilote may indicate an exciting round to come, while MacInnis might not be top 5 next round.

Larry Robinson was a very unique player - he combined elite shutdown ability and intimidation, but was able to do it while remaining disciplined and not taking penalties - much like Devils-era Scott Stevens, who happened to be coached by Larry. But unlike Devils-era Stevens, Robinson also combined a good amount of pu ck rushing and offense with his elite shutdown ability, intimidation and discipline.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Larry Robinson |47|0|0|0|0|0|1|3|5|7|1
Slava Fetisov |42|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|6|6|3

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Slava Fetisov |147|0|1|11|5|2|0|0|1|0|0
Larry Robinson |140|0|2|6|4|6|2|0|0|0|0

It's interesting that we ranked Robinson ahead of Fetisov during the first round of voting, however Fetisov jumped ahead of Big Bird on the final list. There were some strong arguments in favour of Fetisov (and some good arguments against Robinson) during the past week and it looks like the voters took the new evidence/arguments into account and revised their votes accordingly. That's great to see! It shows that we're challenging our way of thinking and we're willing to reevaluate our opinions based on new evidence.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here are the results of Vote 3. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 21 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | none Brad Park |176|6|6|3|4|0|2|0|0|0|0|0
King Clancy |167|4|8|2|3|1|1|1|1|0|0|0
Paul Coffey |155|6|3|3|2|2|1|3|0|0|1|0
Pierre Pilote |149|2|2|5|5|5|0|1|0|1|0|0
Sprague Cleghorn |99|1|0|3|1|5|1|2|3|2|2|1
Al MacInnis |96|1|0|2|2|2|4|1|4|3|2|0
Tim Horton |94|1|0|2|0|3|3|4|4|3|1|0
Earl Seibert |80|0|1|1|1|0|5|5|1|2|4|1
Scott Stevens |77|0|1|0|1|2|3|1|5|7|1|0
Chris Pronger |50|0|0|0|2|1|1|1|3|3|6|4
Brian Leetch |12|0|0|0|0|0|0|2|0|0|4|15

 

[MXD]

Here are the results of Vote 3. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 21 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | none Brad Park |176|6|6|3|4|0|2|0|0|0|0|0
King Clancy |167|4|8|2|3|1|1|1|1|0|0|0
Paul Coffey |155|6|3|3|2|2|1|3|0|0|1|0
Pierre Pilote |149|2|2|5|5|5|0|1|0|1|0|0
Sprague Cleghorn |99|1|0|3|1|5|1|2|3|2|2|1
Al MacInnis |96|1|0|2|2|2|4|1|4|3|2|0
Tim Horton |94|1|0|2|0|3|3|4|4|3|1|0
Earl Seibert |80|0|1|1|1|0|5|5|1|2|4|1
Scott Stevens |77|0|1|0|1|2|3|1|5|7|1|0
Chris Pronger |50|0|0|0|2|1|1|1|3|3|6|4
Brian Leetch |12|0|0|0|0|0|0|2|0|0|4|15

Some nonsense prevailed in this round. Cleghorn nearly went for the caroussel. Would still pick the 4 guys I head ahead of him 110 times out of the 100.