Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Defensemen)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here are the results of Vote 1. There were 17 of a possible 22 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Bobby Orr |170|17|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Doug Harvey |143|0|8|8|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Raymond Bourque |133|0|4|7|5|1|0|0|0|0|0
Eddie Shore |121|0|4|2|5|5|0|1|0|0|0
Nicklas Lidstrom |104|0|1|0|6|6|2|1|1|0|0
Denis Potvin |86|0|0|0|0|4|10|3|0|0|0
Red Kelly |65|0|0|0|0|1|3|8|3|1|1
Larry Robinson |47|0|0|0|0|0|1|3|5|7|1
Slava Fetisov |42|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|6|6|3
Chris Chelios |24|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|2|3|12

Here are the results of Vote 2. There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | 11th | 12th | 13th | 14th | 15th Denis Potvin |194|14|6|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Red Kelly |182|6|11|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Slava Fetisov |147|0|1|11|5|2|0|0|1|0|0
Larry Robinson |140|0|2|6|4|6|2|0|0|0|0
Chris Chelios |125|0|0|1|8|6|5|0|0|0|0
Brad Park |76|0|0|0|0|2|3|8|3|4|0
Paul Coffey |71|0|0|0|1|1|6|1|4|5|2
King Clancy |67|0|0|0|1|1|3|4|4|4|3
Pierre Pilote |63|0|0|0|0|2|0|6|6|3|3
Al MacInnis |35|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|2|4|12

Here are the results of Vote 3. There were 21 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 11th | 12th | 13th | 14th | 15th | 16th | 17th | 18th | 19th | 20th | none Brad Park |176|6|6|3|4|0|2|0|0|0|0|0
King Clancy |167|4|8|2|3|1|1|1|1|0|0|0
Paul Coffey |155|6|3|3|2|2|1|3|0|0|1|0
Pierre Pilote |149|2|2|5|5|5|0|1|0|1|0|0
Sprague Cleghorn |99|1|0|3|1|5|1|2|3|2|2|1
Al MacInnis |96|1|0|2|2|2|4|1|4|3|2|0
Tim Horton |94|1|0|2|0|3|3|4|4|3|1|0
Earl Seibert |80|0|1|1|1|0|5|5|1|2|4|1
Scott Stevens |77|0|1|0|1|2|3|1|5|7|1|0
Chris Pronger |50|0|0|0|2|1|1|1|3|3|6|4
Brian Leetch |12|0|0|0|0|0|0|2|0|0|4|15

Here are the results of Vote 4. There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 16th | 17th | 18th | 19th | 20th | 21st | 22nd | 23rd | 24th | 25th | none Earl Seibert |162|7|2|5|4|0|1|0|0|0|1|0
Tim Horton |158|3|7|1|4|4|1|0|0|0|0|0
Al MacInnis |156|3|2|8|2|5|0|0|0|0|0|0
Scott Stevens |141|2|5|2|3|3|2|2|1|0|0|0
Chris Pronger |121|3|0|2|3|2|4|4|2|0|0|0
Bill Gadsby |82|1|0|0|1|1|4|3|7|3|0|0
Brian Leetch |79|1|0|0|2|1|3|4|3|4|1|1
Borje Salming |77|0|1|1|0|2|3|5|2|2|3|1
Dit Clapper |65|0|2|1|1|2|1|1|0|2|7|3
Valeri Vasiliev |40|0|1|0|0|0|1|0|3|6|5|4
Serge Savard |19|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|2|3|3|11

Here are the results of Vote 5. There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 21st | 22nd | 23rd | 24th | 25th | 26th | 27th | 28th | 29th | 30th | none Bill Gadsby |166|7|2|3|6|2|0|0|0|0|0|0
Borje Salming |153|5|4|4|1|3|2|0|0|0|0|1
Brian Leetch |148|3|7|3|2|1|1|1|0|1|0|1
Dit Clapper |131|4|3|1|3|4|1|1|0|1|0|2
Valeri Vasiliev |115|1|3|1|4|3|2|1|2|2|0|1
Bill Quackenbush |78|0|0|1|1|2|4|6|0|2|3|1
Mark Howe |78|0|1|1|1|2|4|3|2|1|2|3
Serge Savard |63|0|0|2|1|1|3|0|4|2|3|4
Rod Langway |53|0|0|1|1|1|1|1|5|3|2|5
Jack Stewart |41|0|0|2|0|1|0|2|1|3|2|9
Guy Lapointe |39|0|0|0|0|0|0|5|3|2|6|4
Scott Niedermayer |35|0|0|1|0|0|2|0|3|3|2|9

Here are the results of Vote 6. There were 20 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 26th | 27th | 28th | 29th | 30th | 31st | 32nd | 33rd | 34th | 35th | none Mark Howe |156|4|5|5|2|1|1|1|0|1|0|0
Bill Quackenbush |156|7|2|4|1|4|0|1|0|0|1|0
Serge Savard |136|4|3|3|3|1|1|1|2|1|1|0
Rod Langway |114|2|2|1|3|3|2|3|2|0|1|1
Eddie Gerard |104|0|1|3|3|5|1|2|1|2|0|2
Jack Stewart |94|1|4|0|0|2|4|0|2|4|2|1
Guy Lapointe |92|0|1|1|2|0|5|4|3|1|2|0
Scott Niedermayer |73|1|1|1|2|2|0|2|3|1|2|5
Lionel Conacher |55|1|1|1|0|1|1|1|3|0|4|7
Marcel Pronovost |50|0|0|1|2|0|3|1|0|4|1|8
Jacques Laperriere |33|0|0|0|1|0|2|1|1|4|1|10
J.C. Tremblay |23|0|0|0|0|0|0|3|2|1|3|11
Butch Bouchard |14|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|1|1|2|15

Here are the results of Vote 7. There were 19 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 31st | 32nd | 33rd | 34th | 35th | 36th | 37th | 38th | 39th | 40th | none Jack Stewart |159|8|4|2|0|3|1|1|0|0|0|0
Guy Lapointe |148|0|7|3|4|3|1|1|0|0|0|0
Scott Niedermayer |120|4|2|1|2|2|0|4|4|0|0|0
Marcel Pronovost |111|3|1|2|1|3|3|2|2|1|0|1
Lionel Conacher |85|3|0|2|2|1|2|1|0|2|1|5
Zdeno Chara |73|0|0|3|1|2|2|3|2|0|2|4
Alexei Kasatonov |68|1|0|2|2|1|3|0|0|3|1|6
J.C. Tremblay |67|0|1|2|1|0|3|4|1|0|1|6
Jacques Laperriere |63|0|2|0|1|3|0|1|4|1|2|5
Butch Bouchard |43|0|1|1|2|0|1|0|0|3|2|9
Rob Blake |40|0|0|0|2|1|0|1|3|2|3|7
Larry Murphy |32|0|1|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|4|10
Carl Brewer |24|0|0|1|0|0|1|0|2|2|1|12
Ebbie Goodfellow |18|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|1|4|2|11

Here are the results of Vote 8. There were 18 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 36th | 37th | 38th | 39th | 40th | 41st | 42nd | 43rd | 44th | 45th | none Hod Stuart |111|2|4|3|1|1|1|2|1|1|0|2
Ching Johnson |110|3|4|2|0|2|1|2|1|0|0|3
Jacques Laperriere |103|2|3|1|1|2|2|3|1|2|0|1
Alexei Kasatonov |101|3|1|3|3|1|1|0|1|1|1|3
J.C. Tremblay |96|2|1|1|2|3|4|1|1|0|0|3
Moose Johnson |95|3|1|1|1|3|0|5|0|0|3|1
Zdeno Chara |86|1|2|0|5|0|2|1|2|0|3|2
Butch Bouchard |47|1|0|1|1|0|2|1|1|2|1|9
Rob Blake |46|0|0|2|1|0|2|0|3|2|0|8
Larry Murphy |45|0|1|2|1|0|0|1|0|3|3|7
Carl Brewer |43|0|1|0|1|1|0|2|3|2|0|8
Jan Suchy |35|1|0|2|0|0|0|0|1|3|0|11
Ebbie Goodfellow |34|0|0|0|1|2|0|0|3|1|4|7
Tom Johnson |20|0|0|0|0|1|2|0|0|1|2|12
Georges Boucher |18|0|0|0|0|2|1|0|0|0|1|14

Here are the results of Vote 9. There were 19 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 41st | 42nd | 43rd | 44th | 45th | 46th | 47th | 48th | 49th | 50th | none Moose Johnson |142|5|4|3|2|2|0|1|0|1|0|1
Zdeno Chara |141|7|2|3|2|1|1|0|1|0|1|1
Ebbie Goodfellow |101|0|2|3|4|1|3|0|2|1|2|1
Rob Blake |92|0|1|4|0|5|1|2|2|1|0|3
Butch Bouchard |86|1|1|1|2|2|2|3|2|2|1|2
Carl Brewer |84|1|1|1|2|3|1|3|0|3|2|2
Jan Suchy |79|2|2|1|2|1|1|0|2|0|2|6
Ken Reardon |68|0|2|2|1|1|1|1|1|3|3|3
Larry Murphy |67|1|2|0|2|0|1|2|3|1|1|6
Babe Siebert |65|1|1|0|1|0|4|2|2|2|1|5
Georges Boucher |44|0|1|1|0|1|1|3|0|1|2|9
Harry Cameron |34|1|0|0|0|1|1|1|2|0|3|10
Tom Johnson |26|0|0|0|1|0|2|1|1|1|0|13
Sylvio Mantha |13|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|1|2|0|15
Doug Wilson |3|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|17

Here are the results of Vote 10. There were 18 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 46th | 47th | 48th | 49th | 50th | 51th | 52th | 53th | 54th | 55th | none Carl Brewer | 130 | 2 | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Babe Siebert | 115 | 1 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Georges Boucher | 113 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Jan Suchy | 112 | 6 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4
Larry Murphy | 92 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 3
Ken Reardon | 87 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2
Harry Cameron | 62 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5
Tom Johnson | 59 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 3
Lester Patrick | 41 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 10
Fern Flaman | 41 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 7
Sylvio Mantha | 39 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 4 | 7
Allan Stanley | 29 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 8
Doug Wilson | 29 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 10
Alexander Ragulin | 24 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 11
Harry Howell | 17 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 11

Here are the results of Vote 11. There were 18 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 51st | 52nd | 53rd | 54th | 55th | 56th | 57th | 58th | 59th | 60th | none Ken Reardon |139|8|2|1|3|0|1|1|1|0|0|1
Tom Johnson |98|2|1|3|2|1|2|1|2|2|1|1
Lester Patrick |91|1|2|2|2|4|0|1|1|1|0|4
Art Coulter |88|1|4|2|0|0|2|2|2|1|0|4
Doug Wilson |84|1|1|1|3|2|1|3|1|1|2|2
Allan Stanley |77|0|2|1|1|3|1|2|2|2|3|1
Harry Cameron |76|2|1|3|0|0|2|0|2|2|3|3
Sylvio Mantha |69|0|1|1|3|1|2|2|1|2|0|5
Harvey Pulford |60|1|2|0|1|2|0|2|1|1|0|8
Alexander Ragulin |60|0|1|1|2|1|2|2|0|2|1|6
Fern Flaman |44|0|1|1|0|1|2|0|2|1|3|7
Harry Howell |35|0|0|1|0|1|2|1|0|2|3|8
Vladimir Konstantinov |30|1|0|0|0|2|1|0|1|0|0|13
Sergei Zubov |22|1|0|1|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|15
Pat Stapleton |17|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|2|1|2|12

Here are the results of Vote 12. There were 19 of a possible 23 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 56th | 57th | 58th | 59th | 60th | 61st | 62nd | 63rd | 64th | 65th | none Sylvio Mantha |127|1|5|2|2|3|3|1|1|1|0|0
Harry Cameron |118|4|2|3|2|0|1|2|3|0|0|2
Fratisek Pospisil |115|7|0|2|0|2|3|0|0|0|2|3
Allan Stanley |112|1|3|2|5|1|1|1|3|0|0|2
Harvey Pulford |85|2|1|2|1|2|2|1|1|1|2|4
Alexander Ragulin |73|0|2|2|1|3|0|2|0|3|0|6
Mike Grant |69|1|3|1|1|0|2|0|2|0|1|8
Fern Flaman |65|1|1|0|0|3|2|2|1|2|3|4
Harry Howell |57|0|1|1|2|1|3|1|0|0|1|9
Sergei Zubov |38|1|1|1|0|0|0|2|0|1|1|12
Babe Pratt |37|0|0|0|1|1|0|0|2|7|4|4
Bill White |37|0|0|0|2|0|0|4|1|2|0|10
Pat Stapleton |32|0|0|2|0|1|0|1|1|0|3|11
Vladimir Konstantinov |31|1|0|1|1|1|0|0|0|0|0|15
Vladimir Lutchenko |29|0|0|0|1|1|1|1|1|2|0|12
Hap Day |11|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|2|0|0|16
Phil Housley |9|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|0|2|15

Click to read more...

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Ah, the votes are here - thanks!

Not sure how anyone can think Lidstrom is still not Top 5.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Ah, the votes are here - thanks!

Not sure how anyone can think Lidstrom is still not Top 5.

That was my 1st thought as well but maybe the fact that he is still playing hurts his case and some perspective on his career will come into play after time.

Second thought was how Kelly seemed to slip, maybe his time at center hurt his case not sure how all voters treated him as a Dman.

 

[Dreakmur]

Just got back from out of town - thought I had until midnight, but my votes wouldn't have changed things anyway.

 

[Dreakmur]

Ah, the votes are here - thanks!

Not sure how anyone can think Lidstrom is still not Top 5.

He's in my top 5, but I'm sure the people that don't have him in theirs have weak competition as a big reason.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Where Does Lidstrom Rank in Sweden?

He's in my top 5, but I'm sure the people that don't have him in theirs have weak competition as a big reason.

Where does Nicklas Lidstrom rank all time in Sweden amongst Swedish defensemen?

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1023709&page=17

Post #424 provides insight, maybe as low as fourth in a groug including Borje Salming, Svedberg, Kenny Jonsson and Nicklas Lidstrom.

Given this opinion or presentation and where HOH participants rank Borje Salming, Svedberg and Kenny Jonsson, readers and posters would see Lidstrom in a different light and downgrade him accordingly.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where does Nicklas Lidstrom rank all time in Sweden amongst Swedish defensemen?

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1023709&page=17

Post #424 provides insight, maybe as low as fourth in a groug including Borje Salming, Svedberg, Kenny Jonsson and Nicklas Lidstrom.

Given this opinion or presentation and where HOH participants rank Borje Salming, Svedberg and Kenny Jonsson, readers and posters would see Lidstrom in a different light and downgrade him accordingly.

I'm pretty sure you are taking post 424 out of context:

I know that in Sweden, Lidstrom is among many not as highly thought of as guys like Salming, Svedberg or perhaps even Kenny Jonsson. That is because many Swedes does not follow NHL,. and judge him based on international tournaments. And seing him in those, he hasn't really looked like a star player. Maybe it's his style of play..?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Context and Background.

I'm pretty sure you are taking post 424 out of context:

Post #424 seems deep in context and background. From an NHL / NA viewpoint Nicklas Lidstrom was the best defenseman on the Swedish national post 1991 - see the Salming quotes in the same thread which lead to a slight Lindros comparison.

Then you have other events in the years since 1991 - some good some weak some paradoxical.The 2006 gold medal winning goal. The loss to Belarus in 2002, blanked in 2010 in 4 games.

Combine the NHL and international elements of his career and you wind up with more questions than answers. To many ups and downs for a defenseman who internationally and in the NHL played for top 6 teams in most given seasons or international events.

 

[DoMakc]

He's in my top 5, but I'm sure the people that don't have him in theirs have weak competition as a big reason.

Competition is such BS argument. It's says nothing about a player (since he has no influence), but about judgement ability, i.e. without benchmarks you aren't able to judge players' ability.

 

[MXD]

Actually quite pleased as how much it wasn't that close between Bourque and Shore, so we can tackle subjects other than the !)"%*!)"*%! Bourque-Lidstrom thing.

 

[plusandminus]

Here are the results of Vote 1. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 17 of a possible 22 voters in this round.

Player | Total | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th Bobby Orr |170|17|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Doug Harvey |143|0|8|8|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Raymond Bourque |133|0|4|7|5|1|0|0|0|0|0
Eddie Shore |121|0|4|2|5|5|0|1|0|0|0
Nicklas Lidstrom |104|0|1|0|6|6|2|1|1|0|0
Denis Potvin |86|0|0|0|0|4|10|3|0|0|0
Red Kelly |65|0|0|0|0|1|3|8|3|1|1
Larry Robinson |47|0|0|0|0|0|1|3|5|7|1
Slava Fetisov |42|0|0|0|0|0|1|1|6|6|3
Chris Chelios |24|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|2|3|12

This was surprising to me. I thought 2nd place would be between Bourque and Lidstrom, with Bourque probably finishing higher. I thought Harvey was 4th place, possibly threatening Lidstrom. I thought Shore would finish 5th.
Only one person thought of Lidstrom as top 3, which is a surprise to me. Maybe Lidstrom would have needed some outstanding international performance, to back his case up. Or perhaps an elite season for another season than Detroit.

Some (more) solid placements followed, with everyone agreeing about Potvin being 6th (or at least 5-7), people voting Kelly as 7th or near 7th, and Chelios 10th (or near 10th). Robinson vs Fetisov will was more even, and my guess is that Robinson will end above Fetisov as I assume some will rate Fetisov low in the next round too.

Question to the administrators:
Would it be possible to post how each person voted in this round? If not, why not? When all 10 players "competing" here have gained their final ranking (which may, or not, happen after next round), can it be revealed then how people voted in this round?

Can you reveal now how each person's top 4 in this round looked like? (All the top 4 votes went to players finishing top 5.)

 

[unknown33]

7th and 8th place votes for Lidstrom.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Actually quite pleased as how much it wasn't that close between Bourque and Shore, so we can tackle subjects other than the !)"%*!)"*%! Bourque-Lidstrom thing.

Yeah.... I'm REALLY happy to not have to talk about Bourque vs. Lidstrom anymore... That one gets a little much.

Question to the administrators:
Would it be possible to post how each person voted in this round? If not, why not? When all 10 players "competing" here have gained their final ranking (which may, or not, happen after next round), can it be revealed then how people voted in this round?

Can you reveal now how each person's top 4 in this round looked like? (All the top 4 votes went to players finishing top 5.)

All source data, including everyone's complete voting record will be posted at the end of the project as part of the open nature of the thing.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not sure how anyone can think Lidstrom is still not Top 5.

I felt that way going into the discussion, but have come around to putting him at #5 after fine-tooth-combing his record. I still think Potvin was a more impactful player at his best, but Lidstrom has a solid 15-year record of unrivalled excellence.

Then again, I didn't vote in this round so my opinion is just that

 

[VanIslander]

Potvin and Robinson sure seemed better than Lidstrom. Maybe I'm remembering the 70s more fondly than deserved.

Hell, friggin' Pronger seems as good as Lidstrom if I use the smell and see test.

But alas, statistics and accolades are supposed to trump judgement. What you think and what you can convince others are two different things. "Objective" factors stand inbetween.

I certainly think the last decade has been WEAK in terms of all-time great defensemen, that certainly has worked in Lidstrom's favour.

 

[DoMakc]

Potvin and Robinson sure seemed better than Lidstrom. Maybe I'm remembering the 70s more fondly than deserved.

Hell, friggin' Pronger seems as good as Lidstrom if I use the smell and see test.

But alas, statistics and accolades are supposed to trump judgement. What you think and what you can convince others are two different things. "Objective" factors stand inbetween.

Since your see tests depends on what glases you wear, yes I would trust statistics more.

 

[Pear Juice]

Where does Nicklas Lidstrom rank all time in Sweden amongst Swedish defensemen?

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1023709&page=17

Post #424 provides insight, maybe as low as fourth in a groug including Borje Salming, Svedberg, Kenny Jonsson and Nicklas Lidstrom.

Given this opinion or presentation and where HOH participants rank Borje Salming, Svedberg and Kenny Jonsson, readers and posters would see Lidstrom in a different light and downgrade him accordingly.

Nicklas Lidström ranks absolutely, unquestionably first among Swedish defensemen. Without any kind of doubt whatsoever. You will find very few educated people (I believe plusminus is talking about the man on the street, which is slightly different. Mark Messier is at least top-5 player according to many casual fans for example.) who list him outside of the top 2 when all positions are regarded. The only player that truly rivals him is Peter Forsberg who is the most iconic hockey player in Sweden.

Lidström is well liked in Sweden but he does not really possess any star quality, in the medial sense of the term. He is quiet and spends most of his time in North America. Forsberg on the other hand is on another level entirely when it comes to fame, he routinely shows up in all kinds of media outlets.

Regarding Tre Kronor, it's not that Lidström's been bad for the national team, it's just that he's hardly been there at all. During his career he's played in the World Championships three times, only once past 1994. It is of course much due to his succesful team that he's not been able to play, but there have been several cases where he's turned the opportunity down. Laying down the phone when the national team calls is not very well recieved in Sweden.

Regarding Kenny Jönsson; personally I would most likely list at least Nicklas Lidström, Börje Salming, Lennart Svedberg, Rolle Stoltz, Lasse Björn, Lars-Erik Sjöberg and Stefan Persson ahead of Kenny Jönsson. Kenny's had some really impressive showings for Tre Kronor, leading to a hype that is maybe at times a bit over the top. His brother Jörgen (one of the most underappreciated players I can think of) arguably accomplished more during his career.

 

[tony d]

The list went almost the way I thought it would go, I had Bourque at #2 and Harvey at #3, anyway good work by all those involved in doing this, looking forward to seeing how the rest of the list turns out

 

[JaysCyYoung]

The list went almost the way I thought it would go, I had Bourque at #2 and Harvey at #3, anyway good work by all those involved in doing this, looking forward to seeing how the rest of the list turns out

So did I. It felt a little weird ranking Shore fifth but I ranked Lidstrom the highest that I've ever ranked him (fourth on my list) based on some truly compelling arguments put forward by his supporters.

I'm a little surprised that Bourque didn't receive more second-place votes (he got the same number as Shore), but the rest of the list unfolded exactly as I thought that it would. It will be fascinating to see how we tackle the players after the top ten list is compiled. That's when things start to get truly interesting around here...

I'm particularly interested to see how the rest of the infamous 1980s and 1990s defencemen are ranked: Coffey, MacInnis, Stevens, and Leetch being the most notable numbers post-top ten on the all-time rankings.

 

[jkrx]

Where does Nicklas Lidstrom rank all time in Sweden amongst Swedish defensemen?

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1023709&page=17

Post #424 provides insight, maybe as low as fourth in a groug including Borje Salming, Svedberg, Kenny Jonsson and Nicklas Lidstrom.

Given this opinion or presentation and where HOH participants rank Borje Salming, Svedberg and Kenny Jonsson, readers and posters would see Lidstrom in a different light and downgrade him accordingly.

Börje Salming is a legend in Sweden because of his international resume. Svedberg is definitly not higher than Lidström in a ranking. Kenny Jönsson was hyped in media because his team never reached playoffs so he played in the WCs instead.

Let me ask you this. Do you honstely believe that Kenny Jönsson is a top-4 swedish defenseman of all time?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Relevance

Börje Salming is a legend in Sweden because of his international resume. Svedberg is definitly not higher than Lidström in a ranking. Kenny Jönsson was hyped in media because his team never reached playoffs so he played in the WCs instead.

Let me ask you this. Do you honstely believe that Kenny Jönsson is a top-4 swedish defenseman of all time?

The issue is what is perceived and presented in Sweden counterbalanced against the perception and presentation in the NHL sphere.

The result suggests a narrowing of the two extremes.

 

[Reds4Life]

The issue is what is perceived and presented in Sweden counterbalanced against the perception and presentation in the NHL sphere.

The result suggests a narrowing of the two extremes.

Just because there are people with no legs does not mean everyone else ought to lose one or both legs as well.

 

[jkrx]

The issue is what is perceived and presented in Sweden counterbalanced against the perception and presentation in the NHL sphere.

The result suggests a narrowing of the two extremes.

There is no real perception in sweden when it comes to media. There is no hockey news or in-depth analysis. No one except true fans watches NHL games regularly, not even journalists, they get their news from american media and spins it so they get headlines like "Sedins crushed the Blackhawks" or "Oduya hailed by his coach" when in reality the coach basically said "Oduya had a good game".

You are not talking about two extremes you are talking about ignorance.

 

[pdd]

Börje Salming is a legend in Sweden because of his international resume. Svedberg is definitly not higher than Lidström in a ranking. Kenny Jönsson was hyped in media because his team never reached playoffs so he played in the WCs instead.

Let me ask you this. Do you honstely believe that Kenny Jönsson is a top-4 swedish defenseman of all time?

If Kenny Jonsson were to sign with the Red Wings for this season on a comeback contract, he wouldn't even be the fourth-best Swedish defenseman to have played for the Wings. Lidstrom, Salming, Kronwall, Olausson were/are all much better. Heck, Jonsson wasn't realistically much better than Anders Eriksson. They even played a similar style, Eriksson maybe a bit riskier offensively. But Jonsson's offensive numbers compared to Eriksson's, when you take into account a #1 defenseman against a #5, make it pretty clear who had more actual offensive talent. Jonsson was definitely better defensively; but that's the only reason he was the better player.

 

[jkrx]

If Kenny Jonsson were to sign with the Red Wings for this season on a comeback contract, he wouldn't even be the fourth-best Swedish defenseman to have played for the Wings. Lidstrom, Salming, Kronwall, Olausson were/are all much better. Heck, Jonsson wasn't realistically much better than Anders Eriksson. They even played a similar style, Eriksson maybe a bit riskier offensively. But Jonsson's offensive numbers compared to Eriksson's, when you take into account a #1 defenseman against a #5, make it pretty clear who had more actual offensive talent. Jonsson was definitely better defensively; but that's the only reason he was the better player.

I wouldnt go as far as saying Jönsson were equal to Eriksson. Jönsson was better defensively, offensively, had better leadership qualities and higer hockey IQ.