Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 9 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, Jan 11 at 10PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Friday, Jan 10.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 9 will be for places 32 through 36 (5 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 11 eligible candidates for Vote 9. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Alex Delvecchio
Ron Francis
Doug Gilmour
Dale Hawerchuk
Eric Lindros
Evgeni Malkin
Alexander Maltsev
Adam Oates
Gilbert Perreault
Peter Stastny
Joe Thornton

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There's actually legitimate chance that my top 3 this round will all be new candidates (Maltsev, Thornton, Malkin).

Maltsev and Thornton are almost locks to make my top 4. I'm guessing that Maltsev comfortably makes our collective top 4 after more is posted on him, but we shall see. Thornton - I didn't have him any higher than this on my Round 1 list, but at this point, every objective measure of regular season performance I've looked at (point production, All Star Teams, Hart voting) has him a step above the guys left.... in the regular season.

Malkin is an interesting candidate - I want to delve into his career more to see if he's already worthy of this high spot. At this point, I don't know, but he certainly has the awards.

Hawerchuk won't be in my top 4 and might not be in my top 8, but I have no problems with him coming up at this point. If he's worse than Oates, Perreault, or Francis, it isn't by much, IMO.

Basically, I really like the new candidates this round.

Of the returning guys, I think I like Delvecchio, Gilmour and Stastny the most. Looking forward to comparing Lindros to Malkin.

 

[Sturminator]

Great to see Thornton and Maltsev make it up for the vote this time around, as both have a strong argument to be voted in immediately. I'll start with Thornton, and get to Maltsev in a couple of days. Here are the eligible players based on 7-season VsX (through 2011-12...could someone calculate Malkin's numbers for last season into the formula?), not counting Malkin:

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
15 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
19 | Adam Oates | 90.2
24 | Peter Stastny | 88.3
27 | Ron Francis | 87.6
30 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
32 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
33 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
34 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
39 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3

Joe Thornton's offensive production is, simply put, easily the best of this group, and I'd say he has probably been a better two-way player throughout his career than Oates, Stastny, Hawerchuk and Perreault. Playoffs are where Thornton will get knocked, but he's not nearly as bad in the postseason as people make him out to be.

I will get to Maltsev later. Alex has a very strong case for being the first player inducted in this round, and may have been top-4 in the last round had he been eligible.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All-Star Teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2012-13

Third Team All Stars are unofficial, but derived from the same voting that gives us the First and Second Team All Stars. I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every year but 1941, 1952, 1953, and 1958

Note on Alex Delvecchio = he spent 2 years as a LW with Ullman and Howe before moving back to C. For him, the second numbers are his totals including his 2nd Team AS as a LW.

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Wayne Gretzky | 8 | 7 | 1 | 16
Jean Beliveau | 6 | 4 | 1 | 11
Mario Lemieux | 5 | 4 | 0 | 9
Stan Mikita | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Phil Esposito | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Bobby Clarke | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Bill Cowley | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6
Syl Apps | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
Milt Schmidt | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6
Henri Richard | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6
Norm Ullman | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Ted Kennedy | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6
Elmer Lach | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Joe Sakic | 3 | 0 | 2 | 5
Marcel Dionne | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Bryan Trottier | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Sidney Crosby | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Joe Thornton | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Gilbert Perreault | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Peter Forsberg | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Frank Boucher* | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Hooley Smith* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Max Bentley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Dave Keon | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Steven Stamkos |0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Sid Abel |2|1(2)|0|3(4)
Evgeni Malkin | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3
Howie Morenz* | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3
Mark Messier | 2(4) | 0(1) | 1 | 3(6)
Eric Lindros | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Steve Yzerman | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3
Neil Colville | 0 | 2(3) | 1 | 3(4)
Peter Stastny | 0 |0 | 3 | 3
Ron Francis | 0 |0 | 3 | 3
...
Dale Hawerchuk |0|1|1|2
Doug Gilmour |0|0|2|2
Alex Delvecchio |0|1(2)|0|1(2)
Adam Oates |0|1|0|1

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hart voting Records

We have Hart voting for every year of the careers of every player here (except Maltsev, who never played in the NHL)

As before, a number below listed in italics indicates a voting points total of less than 10% of the leader.

Players are listed in rough chronological order

Nels Stewart: 1, 1*, 5

Sid Abel: 1, 4

Alex Delvecchio: 9, 13
Dave Keon: 4, 6

Gilbert Perreault: 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 13

Peter Stastny: 4, 7, 7, 11, 11
Dale Hawerchuk: 2, 5, 6, 7
Ron Francis: 6, 15
Adam Oates: 4, 12
Doug Gilmour: 2, 4, 5

Sergei Fedorov: 1, 5, 9
Eric Lindros 1, 3, 6, 9

Joe Thornton: 1, 4, 5, 6, 9, 12, 13
Evgeni Malkin: 1, 2, 2

"One-season Hart wonders:" Francis' one season of Hart recognition (where he barely crossed the 10% threshold required to have his number bolded) was actually his age 38 season in 2001-02 in Carolina. Oate's one season of Hart recognition was during his career season in 1992-93, also the only season Oates finished top 3 in All-Star voting. Hawerchuk managed to be Hart runner up to Gretzky in 1984-85.

Edit: I originally made a mistake by posting this list without removing the candidates who made the list list round. But I have decided to keep them here, just crossed out, to show how strong the Hart records of Thornton and Malkin are compared to the players who made it LAST round.

 

[sr edler]

Yeah, pretty nice additions, even though I'll say I would have liked to seen one more player from the early years too, like say Morris, Fredrickson or MacKay.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Great to see Thornton and Maltsev make it up for the vote this time around, as both have a strong argument to be voted in immediately. I'll start with Thornton, and get to Maltsev in a couple of days. Here are the eligible players based on 7-season VsX (through 2011-12...could someone calculate Malkin's numbers for last season into the formula?), not counting Malkin:

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
15 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
19 | Adam Oates | 90.2
24 | Peter Stastny | 88.3
27 | Ron Francis | 87.6
30 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
32 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
33 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
34 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
39 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3

Joe Thornton's offensive production is, simply put, easily the best of this group, and I'd say he has probably been a better two-way player throughout his career than Oates, Stastny, Hawerchuk and Perreault. Playoffs are where Thornton will get knocked, but he's not nearly as bad in the postseason as people make him out to be.

I will get to Maltsev later. Alex has a very strong case for being the first player inducted in this round, and may have been top-4 in the last round had he been eligible.

I swear we didn't coordinate our posts. I know you used to beat the Thornton drum in the ATD, but I didn't completely buy it until I started posting the All Star and Hart records every round during this project and noticed just how much recognition Thornton received.

But yes, Thornton's "on paper" regular season resume is almost certainly the strongest of the NHL players here. Best regular season point production (as measured by VsX), best All-Star record, AND best Hart record (with the possible exception of Malkin on the last one who was only recognized 3 times, but all 3 were top 2). When was the last time we had a center in the project come up who led all three of those metrics over anyone left?

I think he's one of the weakest playoff performers we've seen so far, but I'm don't think he's any weaker than Dionne there. And you could argue that the fact that it took so long for Thornton to show up means we already took his playoff record into account (of course you could also argue otherwise).

 

[sr edler]

Playoffs are where Thornton will get knocked, but he's not nearly as bad in the postseason as people make him out to be.

He's not, he's been pretty solid in the playoffs, but he also doesn't seem to have that urgency gear in his game to switch on playoff time. He's got 13 playoff appearances on pretty good teams and doesn't have a single one that stands out as a really good one for a player of his calibre, unless you inlclude his one playoffs with Davos in the Swiss league. Also the fact that Boston gave up on him and traded him in his [pre]prime raises questions.

 

[Sturminator]

He's not, he's been pretty solid in the playoffs, but he also doesn't seem to have that urgency gear in his game to switch on playoff time.

I agree completely. Thornton's "problem" in the playoffs is that he's not really capable of raising his intensity level, it seems. He just continues what he was doing the whole season, which is generally very good, but not enough to lead a team to the Cup when the chips are down. He should not be compared to Dionne in any way, shape or form. Beyond his rookie year and the year he skated with a broken rib, Thornton has been consistently good in the playoffs, just never great.

Also the fact that Boston gave up on him and traded him in his [pre]prime raises questions.

I think that says more about Boston management at the time than it does Joe Thornton, to be honest. It also says something (quite negative) about Boston fan culture, as well. None of that is Joe's fault.

 

[MadArcand]

Easiest top 4 ever.

Of the new guys, Hawerchuk, Thornton & Maltsev could be intriguing next round, barring some better new names showing up. Malkin? LOL.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This one will be wicked hard!

Right now my top 4 are:

Lindros
Stastny
Francis
Malkin
Maltsev
Hawerchuk
Delvecchio

 

[MXD]

It's reallly about time Stastny makes it; otherwise, I like Douggie's case as well.

I don't expect voting Thornton in my Top-8 for the next three rounds. No use scolding me on this. Still have him ahead of Lindros, though.

 

[MXD]

I think that says more about Boston management at the time than it does Joe Thornton, to be honest. It also says something (quite negative) about Boston fan culture, as well. None of that is Joe's fault.

... and afterwards all went wrong for Boston, as we all know.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It's reallly about time Stastny makes it; otherwise, I like Douggie's case as well.

I don't expect voting Thornton in my Top-8 for the next three rounds. No use scolding me on this. Still have him ahead of Lindros, though.

I'm not scolding but would like an explanation. Some have already started to explain why they think Thornton should rank highly this round. If you are seeing something they are not it is beneficial to the project for you to share that with us.


My biggest pet peeve with any of these projects is when people do not explain their rankings when they are clearly different than what has been said in the discussion thread...everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is against the spirit of the project to vote based on information that has not been shared with the group. (Please note: this is not directed at you, it is just a general comment to all participants)

 

[ted2019]

I swear we didn't coordinate our posts. I know you used to beat the Thornton drum in the ATD, but I didn't completely buy it until I started posting the All Star and Hart records every round during this project and noticed just how much recognition Thornton received.

But yes, Thornton's "on paper" regular season resume is almost certainly the strongest of the NHL players here. Best regular season point production (as measured by VsX), best All-Star record, AND best Hart record (with the possible exception of Malkin on the last one who was only recognized 3 times, but all 3 were top 2). When was the last time we had a center in the project come up who led all three of those metrics over anyone left?

I think he's one of the weakest playoff performers we've seen so far, but I'm don't think he's any weaker than Dionne there. And you could argue that the fact that it took so long for Thornton to show up means we already took his playoff record into account (of course you could also argue otherwise).

Why does everyone still take shots at Dionne? He had no support on those Kings teams, until He was over 30 years old, while Thornton has had some of the best supporting casts in the past 15 years.

 

[ted2019]

This one will be wicked hard!

Right now my top 4 are:

Lindros
Stastny
Francis
Malkin
Maltsev
Hawerchuk
Delvecchio

Lindros should've made it last round...

 

[ted2019]

Easiest top 4 ever.

Of the new guys, Hawerchuk, Thornton & Maltsev could be intriguing next round, barring some better new names showing up. Malkin? LOL.

For Me:
Lindros
Malkin
Francis
?

 

[Sturminator]

... and afterwards all went wrong for Boston, as we all know.

If you are trying to suggest that trading Thornton made the Bruins better, the argument is beyond specious. Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart and Wayne Primeau are the players who came to Boston for Thornton. That is a historically bad return for a player of Thornton's calibre, and those three had next to nothing to do with Boston's later success. That is like saying that the Barry Zito contract was good for the San Francisco Giants because they won two championships with that deadweight on their team. The fact that the Bruins later had success does not change the fact that it was a blindingly stupid trade, and remains the only trade in history of a player who would win the Hart trophy in the same season.

 

[Sens Rule]

My rankings:

Don't really like having short career (or still playing) guys at the top, but I ask myself who was closest to being the best player in the world and for how long? Looked more at longevity of peak then overall longevity. Hard to choose, an argument could be made for virtually any order depending on the merits you value.

1) Malkin
2) Lindros
3) Gilmour
4) Statsny
5) Thornton
6) Hawerchuk
7) Delvecchio
8) Perreault
9) Francis
10) Oates
11) Maltsev

 

[MXD]

If you are trying to suggest that trading Thornton made the Bruins better, the argument is beyond specious. Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart and Wayne Primeau are the players who came to Boston for Thornton. That is a historically bad return for a player of Thornton's calibre, and those three had next to nothing to do with Boston's later success.

The return the Bruins got for Thornton is beyond irrelevant to my point.

 

[Johnny Engine]

If you are trying to suggest that trading Thornton made the Bruins better, the argument is beyond specious. Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart and Wayne Primeau are the players who came to Boston for Thornton. That is a historically bad return for a player of Thornton's calibre, and those three had next to nothing to do with Boston's later success. That is like saying that the Barry Zito contract was good for the San Francisco Giants because they won two championships with that deadweight on their team. The fact that the Bruins later had success does not change the fact that it was a blindingly stupid trade, and remains the only trade in history of a player who would win the Hart trophy in the same season.

The thinking is that getting rid of Thornton allowed them to sign Chara.

That supposes that Chara + Sturm + Stuart + Primeau cost the same amount as Thornton + (three replacement players who just lost their jobs), which I don't think is true at all.

Also, why there couldn't have been some decent draft picks and youth in that package is beyond me too.

And I'm not sure how they knew Chara would be available. Imagine if they gave 7 million dollars to Wade Redden?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's reallly about time Stastny makes it; otherwise, I like Douggie's case as well.

I don't expect voting Thornton in my Top-8 for the next three rounds. No use scolding me on this. Still have him ahead of Lindros, though.

What's the case for Stastny over Thornton? Thornton has better stats compared to his peers, a better All-Star record, a better Hart record.

Stastny gets a lot of mileage out of being 2nd to Gretzky in scoring during the 80s, but Thornton is 1st in scoring during the 00s, but a greater margin over the people under him than Stastny has.

1980-1989:
Gretzky 1837
Stastny: 986
Dionne: 980
Kurri: 950
Savard: 933
Federko: 914
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

2000-2009:
Thornton 794
Jagr 737
Iginla 718
Alfredsson 711
Hossa 688
Sakic 662
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

I realize Stastny is a better goal scorer than Thornton and perhaps somewhat better in the playoffs, and those things can brings the gap, but certainly not enough to have Stastny near the top and Thornton near the bottom, right?

__________________

Pretend Gretzky and Lemieux never existed and the voting otherwise would go in the same order.

This is Stastny's All-Star record without Gretzky and Lemieux:
1st (1986), 2nd (1982), 2nd (1983), 3rd (1984) + Golden Hockey Stick Winner (1980)

This is Thornton's actual All-Star record:
1st (2006), 2nd (2003), 2nd (2008), 3rd (2004), 3rd (2007) + Potential High Spot (2014)

Thornton also finished 5th in 2009 and 2010, but mainly on the basis of 3rd place votes that probably wouldn't have been available if he were competing against Stastny's competition (mainly Gretzky), so I am excluding them from the comparison.

 

[MXD]

What's the case for Stastny over Thornton? Thornton has better stats compared to his peers, a better All-Star record, a better Hart record.

Stastny gets a lot of mileage out of being 2nd to Gretzky in scoring during the 80s, but Thornton is 1st in scoring during the 00s, but a greater margin over the people under him than Stastny has.

1980-1989:
Gretzky 1837
Stastny: 986
Dionne: 980
Kurri: 950
Savard: 933
Federko: 914
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

2000-2009:
Thornton 794
Jagr 737
Iginla 718
Alfredsson 711
Hossa 688
Sakic 662
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

I realize Stastny is a better goal scorer than Thornton and a better goal scorer, and those things can brings the gap, but certainly not enough to have Stastny near the top and Thornton near the bottom, right?

__________________

Pretend Gretzky and Lemieux never existed and the voting otherwise would go in the same order.

This is Stastny's All-Star record without Gretzky and Lemieux:
1st (1986), 2nd (1982), 2nd (1983), 3rd (1984) + Golden Hockey Stick Winner (1980)

This is Thornton's actual All-Star record:
1st (2006), 2nd (2003), 2nd (2008), 3rd (2004), 3rd (2007) + Potential High Spot (2014)

Thornton also finished 5th in 2009 and 2010, but mainly on the basis of 3rd place votes that probably wouldn't have been available if he were competing against Stastny's competition (mainly Gretzky), so I am excluding them from the comparison.

Eyetest. Mostly fearing one, and not caring about the other.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Eyetest. Mostly fearing one, and not caring about the other.

I get this - Thornton seems to lack a "wow" factor when I think of him. On the other hand, how often do you watch San Jose Sharks games? I know I don't watch them very often at all. Most of Thornton's prime is with the Sharks, not the Bruins.

(Side note - how many people know Thornton is currently tied with Ryan Getzlaf for 3rd in NHL scoring behind Crosby and Kane for 2013-14?)