Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Rob Scuderi]

Great crop of new candidates, Martinec might be my favorite.

I can't get past Cournoyer's lower regular season point production yet though.

 

[unknown33]

I hope to hear more about Bucyk this round, I was undecided how to rank him in the previous vote.

Maybe the guy who had him 1st can make a case.

 

[Ursaguy]

First impression-newcomers here are STRONG. With a cap lock. Kariya and Robitaille are locks for me. Martinec looks to be a lock for many, although I've been extremely low on him throughout the process and don't see that changing. Surprised Balderis hasn't come up yet. I'm thinking that the two early guys here, Dye and Phillips, ahve serious top 5 potential.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My gut says Phillips should be #1 or close to it this round. But I admittedly have much less knowledge on him than most here. What is his best case other than just being considered onf of the few best pre-NHL players and a great 2-way player?

Cournoyer seems to be the easy odd man out right now. Shanahan and Recchi will have to prove they belong on the top 10.

Mine too.

 

[Hardyvan123]

We don't even know if Shanahan was top 10 last round yet. I had him off my list. I may again (but may not).

I think it's time for Bucyk now too.

I agree on Bucyk and had him and Shanny side by side last round.

 

[ted2019]

I don't really understand how the two sentence match. Your description actually makes me think he does belong.

Recchi had His best years in Philly. His time in Montreal (346 games) , He was really inconsistent and when He got traded back to Philly, He picked His game back up. After leaving Philly, Recchi bounced around quite a bit and really was a 3rd liner on a good team. He played decent, but basically just added stats to His resume, which to Me, isn't a good thing. Recchi was never in the Hart conversation in any season and had only 1 post season AS selection ( 2nd team). He also had a big hand behind the scenes ( alongside Keith Primeau as the ringleader) in getting Bill Barber fired as coach after the 1999-00 season. I compared Recchi to Roenick as He had a strong start, but never was a major producer after a young age. Recchi did however age better then Roenick and won a few cups as a depth winger. Roenick finished just outside the top 60 in the Center project and I feel that Recchi should show up at the earliest vote 11 or so.

 

[ted2019]

Vladimir Martinec's 2012 ATD Bio written by Hawkey Town:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44385599&postcount=109

 

[seventieslord]

First impression-newcomers here are STRONG. With a cap lock. Kariya and Robitaille are locks for me. Martinec looks to be a lock for many, although I've been extremely low on him throughout the process and don't see that changing. Surprised Balderis hasn't come up yet. I'm thinking that the two early guys here, Dye and Phillips, ahve serious top 5 potential.

- Recchi and robitaille are such similar players in so many ways, and in the results they ultimately achieved. It seems if you value one, you should value the other. I value both, but Recchi's got better playoff results. What's the rationale for liking Robitaille as a lock but not Recchi?

- Did you read everything on Dye last round? I don't think he has top-5 potential at all, even if hes better than every newcomer this round, and you have already implied at least two of them are better.

 

[seventieslord]

Recchi had His best years in Philly. His time in Montreal (346 games) , He was really inconsistent and when He got traded back to Philly, He picked His game back up. After leaving Philly, Recchi bounced around quite a bit and really was a 3rd liner on a good team. He played decent, but basically just added stats to His resume, which to Me, isn't a good thing. Recchi was never in the Hart conversation in any season and had only 1 post season AS selection ( 2nd team). He also had a big hand behind the scenes ( alongside Keith Primeau as the ringleader) in getting Bill Barber fired as coach after the 1999-00 season. I compared Recchi to Roenick as He had a strong start, but never was a major producer after a young age. Recchi did however age better then Roenick and won a few cups as a depth winger. Roenick finished just outside the top 60 in the Center project and I feel that Recchi should show up at the earliest vote 11 or so.

never a major producer after a young age? he was the third highest scorer in 1999-00 at age 32, and 13th in 2004 at age 36.

a 3rd liner on a good team? In 2006, Carolina was a GREAT team, and he was 5th in minutes for them in the playoffs, a solid 2nd liner, at age 38. In 2007, Pittsburgh was an inexperienced first round fodder, but were a 105 point team and he was 2nd in minutes for their forwards. Age 39. The 2009 and 2011 Bruins had 116 and 103 points, and at age 41 and 43, he was 4th and 5th among their forwards in icetime (and I'm pretty sure he led them in scoring in the finals, too)

Your claim that he was a 3rd liner on a good team is, therefore, without merit.

and you know, he ranked 15th, 22nd, 20th and 38th in the league in points in his four Montreal seasons (vsx 81, 81, 69, 68) - and was 18th in total points from 1994-95 through 1998-99 (29th in PPG) - and that's typically known as the low point of his career!

1999 is really the only impeachable season on his record where you look at his age and point total and go "what???"

 

[Hardyvan123]

Recchi had His best years in Philly. His time in Montreal (346 games) , He was really inconsistent and when He got traded back to Philly, He picked His game back up. After leaving Philly, Recchi bounced around quite a bit and really was a 3rd liner on a good team. He played decent, but basically just added stats to His resume, which to Me, isn't a good thing. Recchi was never in the Hart conversation in any season and had only 1 post season AS selection ( 2nd team). He also had a big hand behind the scenes ( alongside Keith Primeau as the ringleader) in getting Bill Barber fired as coach after the 1999-00 season. I compared Recchi to Roenick as He had a strong start, but never was a major producer after a young age. Recchi did however age better then Roenick and won a few cups as a depth winger. Roenick finished just outside the top 60 in the Center project and I feel that Recchi should show up at the earliest vote 11 or so.

Alot of what you are saying here is true but look at the competition for all star votes among RW in the 90's some pretty impressive competition there.

also not being in the mix for best player in the world isn't really that big of a deal at this stage of the proejct is it?

aside from Philips are there even a handful of maybe top 5 player in the world seasons left among any of the Wingers?

Recchi, Shanny , Buyck and Robitallie are all throw in a bag see what comes out types of guys to me.

In other words 8 different guys might have them in 8 different orders but all pretty close I would think.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Reminder from a previous round where it came up:

Paul Kariya - 1995-96 through 2000-01
With Selanne: 308 GP, 175-212-387
Without Selanne: 87 GP, 50-55-105
82-GP Pace With Selanne: 82 GP, 47-56-103
82-GP Pace Without Selanne: 82 GP, 47-52-99
82-GP Pace Without Selanne (Dead Puck): 82 GP, 50-47-97


Whether you look at his total numbers without Selanne in those six seasons or his Dead Puck numbers without Selanne (excludes 1995-96), Paul Kariya peaked extremely high, especially as a goal scorer, which often gets ignored because he didn't win a Rocket Richard Trophy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vladimir Martinec

The following is a slightly edited version of something I posted in 2010

I. Martinec looks to have peaked higher in international play than Boris Mikhailov or Alexander Maltsev

A. Martinec was the All-Star RW at the World Championships 4 straight years in the middle of the primes of all three (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

-Mikhailov was only an All-Star at the WCs twice (1973, 1979)
-Maltsev was an All-Star at the WC in 70, 71, 72, 78, 81 - The gap in the middle is Martinec's prime.

B. Martinec was the best player in the WCs in 1976, competing against prime Mikhailov, Maltsev, and all the 70s Soviet greats

1) Martinec was the top scorer in at the 1976 World Championships, with 20 points in 10 games.

2) He was voted the best forward at the 1976 World Championships

C. The Soviets feard Martinec so much that they felt the need to take him out in the 1974 WCs, similar to what Clarke did to Kharlamov in the Summit Series.

Need to go through this all over again?

The Russians really shouldn´t get too high and mighty as the Soviet team did similar things on the ice. I "remember" Vladimir Martinec being brutally taken out (by defenseman Tsygankov) in the key Czechoslovakia game in the ´74 World Championships; and that really wasn´t the only time...

From a thread on Clarke's attack on Kharlamov: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=315349

In 1974, the competition was much closer as USSR need to beat Czechoslovakia in the final game to win the gold. USSR was behind 0:1 after the first period. During the intermission a top official from the Russian hockey federation entered the locker room. Bobrov coldly asked him to close the door. From the outside. The official turned red and left the room in anger. In the 2nd period, USSR intimidated the Czechs by playing incredibly hard. The Soviet players had completely abandoned their old hockey style, and the rink was literally scattered with blood. The biggest Czech star, Vladimir Martinec was injured and USSR quickly scored four unanswered goals to win the gold.

The game was bad prestige for USSR

http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=4201

D. Czechoslovakia was almost as good as the USSR during Martinec's prime and he was the best Czech skater at the time.

1) During the course of Martinec's international career (71-77), the Czechs won 3/7 World Championships (72, 76, 77), and were 5-7-3 against the Soviets overall.

Even before then, the Czechs were apparently right up there with the Soviets:
From 66-72, the Czechs were 12-11-2 against the USSR and 5-5-2 in "meaningful games." Source.

2) Martinec was considered the best Czech player at the time.

a) He won 3 of 4 "Golden Stick" awards for best Czechoslovakian player during this time (73, 75, 76). Goalie Jiri Holocek won in 74.

b) Overall, Martinec won 4 Golden Stick awards (73, 75, 76, 79) - the most ever until Jagr and Hasek.

3. Martinec is the All-Time leading Czechoslovakian scorer in "major international" tournaments by a wide margin.

■135 pts – 69 g – 66 a – 15 appearances — Vladimir MARTINEC
■113 pts – 60 g – 53 a – 17 appearances — Jiri HOLIK
■110 pts – 78 g – 32 a – 11 appearances — Vaclav NEDOMANSKY (all before '74)
■104 pts – 53 g – 51 a – 14 appearances— Ivan HLINKA

4) Nedomansky defected after the 74 WCs. Martinec was undisputed star forward for the Czech National Team afterwards.

II. Maltsev and Mikhailov have slight longevity advantages.

A. Martinec seems to have been a star player from 1971 (when he first joined the national team) to 1979 (his last golden stick win. I believe he led the Czech league in goals that year for the first time, finally playing on a good team).

B. Mikhailov seems to have been a star from 69-80 and Maltsev seems to have been a star from from 69-81.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=565254

C. Maltsev might have been at his best from 70-72 and Mikhailov might have been at his best from 78-80.

D. This isn’t a huge longevity advantage, but it’s enough to probably make the three players about even in offensive value.

III. Intangibles and other considerations

A. Mikhailov oozes intangibles in a way that perhaps no other non-NHL Euro ever did.

B. Martinec and Maltsev are not known for much besides offense.

C. Martinec and Maltsev were both likely above average defensively, but I haven’t seen anything definitive.

D. One big difference between Maltsev and Martinec is that Maltsev has shown that he didn’t handle physical play very well. Whereas Martinec always bounced right back when physically abused (except when deliberately injured in 1974, but he can hardly be faulted for that:

Few players were treated more brutally than Martinec. This small (5'9" and 178 Ibs) right wing somehow always seemed to bounce back totally undisturbed and more often than not with a smile on his face. His constant smile was a sort of a trademark and frustrated his opponents even more. A lot of reporters used to ask him why he always was smiling, even after a vicious crosscheck in the back. He said that he did it because he enjoyed the game so much and always had fun.

Conclusion and All-Time rankings:

Martinec looks to have peaked higher internationally while Maltsev and Mikahilov had greater longevity as top scorers.

Mikhailov definitely beats the other two in intangibles. Martinec and Maltsev are about the same.

If Mikhailov is the 20th best winger of all-time, what does that make Martinec, who looks to have been better in his peak/prime in the international arena, but doesn't quite have the longevity, and definitely doesn't have the grit?

Where should Martinec be ranked in relation to Alexander Maltsev, considering again, Martinec looks to have been better in his peak/prime in the international arena, without quite having the longevity? Martinec wasn't known as gritty, but he seems to have handled physical play quite well.

By the way, Mikhailov and Maltsev were the two players with unusually good longevity as top scorers for the Soviets, so having less longevity than them isn't necessarily a bad thing (Martinec's prime looks at first glance to have been slightly longer than Kharlamov's).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Isn't Bryan Hextall, Sr basically a better version of the power forward type player than Bucyk or Shanny? He peaked higher as a scorer, at least.

Recchi - definitely a strange disconnect between his stats and the fact that nobody who saw him play thought they were watching a star player. That's not just me giving my personal opinion - his All-Star voting record is really weak compared to his stats. Some of that is because he got to be centered by Lemieux then Lindros, but then there's 1999-00.

 

[seventieslord]

In 2000, the top five scorers were all right wingers, so there's that.

 

[overpass]

Isn't Bryan Hextall, Sr basically a better version of the power forward type player than Bucyk or Shanny? He peaked higher as a scorer, at least.

Hextall was the best player on the best line in the league. Like Maurice Richard after him, he played his off wing, a LH shot on the right wing.

He had a late start, making the NHL at age 24. And he wasn't a star after 30 - he took two years off because of the war, and like many players his age had trouble getting back up to speed in the faster post-war NHL. As a result, he didn't have as many years as a star as some others - especially Bucyk and Shanahan - but he was a consistent scorer and an iron man during his short prime.

Hextall became a star in 1939-40 on the Rough House line with Phil Watson and Dutch Hiller. They played against other team's top lines all season, famously shutting down the Kraut line in the 1940 playoffs. Hextall led the league in regular season goals, and scored an overtime Cup-winning goal in the playoffs. He continued his scoring success in the next three seasons, forming the most dangerous scoring line in the league with Watson and Lynn Patrick.

Hextall was definitely a power forward of his day. Here's an AP piece published in the January 5, 1944 edition of the Troy Record with very high praise for his physical play.

"Toughest fire-eater on ice"..."hands out more body checks than 99% of defense men"..."invariably see Hextall skate out of the corner with the puck"...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Recchi - definitely a strange disconnect between his stats and the fact that nobody who saw him play thought they were watching a star player. That's not just me giving my personal opinion - his All-Star voting record is really weak compared to his stats. Some of that is because he got to be centered by Lemieux then Lindros, but then there's 1999-00.

some old posts about recchi:

in '91, mario is out and recchi carries that team to the playoffs, finishing 4th in league scoring behind gretzky, and hull and oates during their 86 goal year. if recchi isn't recchi that year, there may not have been a playoff team for mario to come back to and lead to the cup.

in '00, lindros is out and recchi takes over, finishing 3rd in league scoring behind jagr and bure. in the playoffs that year, he put up an MVP-like performance to beat the penguins in the 2nd round after falling to a 2-0 deficit, then helped push the eventual cup winning devils to seven in the 3rd round. without the lindros sideshow in that series, and the devastating blow stevens laid not only to lindros' brain but also to the flyers' psyche, we could easily have been watching a recchi vs. modano finals that may have answered this question once and for all.


if he didn't play behind mario and, later, lindros, i'd argue that recchi could have had a career a lot closer to iginla or MSL than it would have been to [poster compares recchi to andreychuk].

one thing that jumps out at me with recchi's legacy is that he's probably a top 20 playmaking winger of all time. which seems like not that big of a deal, because there haven't been that many great playmaking wingers in hockey history. but another way of thinking about it is maybe that rarity makes him all the more valuable. having a second playmaker from the wing opens up so much space offensively.

i don't have a list, but off the top of my head who's above him? definitely lindsay, howe, bathgate, lafleur, bossy, makarov, jagr, MSL. and there are probably others that i'm forgetting. but i'd put recchi somewhere in the next tier with toe blake, dickie moore, olmstead, kurri, kariya, elias, daniel sedin.

in terms of on-ice intelligence, recchi is one of the few truly elite playmaking wingers. from the 80s forward, that list includes, yes, makarov, jagr, martin st. louis, kurri, daniel sedin. i'm probably forgetting a couple but it's a very short list. who else belongs there? probably not more than two or three guys.

it's no more insane to compare recchi to makarov than it is to compare him to "compilers" like andreychuk, gartner, and ciccarelli.



when was he ever a centerpiece? best player on the 2000 flyers, who came within a goal of making the finals. regular season MVP of the '91 penguins, who wouldn't have made the playoffs and therefore wouldn't have won that cup, if not for him.

recchi gets less credit for his accomplishments than any other player of my lifetime (basically, the beginning of gretzky's career up to the present). yes, less than ron francis. even when he was playing, he didn't get any credit, from the press, from fans, or from his own coaches and GMs.

similar to adam oates with hull/neely, recchi was thought to be expendable because he was overshadowed by the guys he pushed to really high levels-- kevin stevens and primeau, especially, but also arguably young lindros. he was best with a shoot-first big man on his line, hence the "lost years" in montreal, but his importance to those penguins and flyers teams was no less than oates to his teams.

in terms of the RWs of his era, he's behind jagr without a doubt, and hull. he's probably a little behind selanne, even with bure, and ahead of neely and mogilny. even as a recchi fan it feels weird to me to say it, but i think his peak and career value is probably equal to adam oates. and yet history seems to treat him like a ken hodge with ron francis-longevity.

i think recchi usually not making team canadas is a case of bad timing and, well, stubbornness. if you look at the guys who picked the '91, '96, '98, and '02 teams, they placed a premium on a certain kinds of wingers; basically four categories: superstar (kariya, iginla), speedy with two-way ability (fleury, courtnall, gagne), gritty lunchpail forechecking guys, preferably who also can play center (linden, graves), and defensive specialist (graham, zamuner, maltby). recchi doesn't fit neatly into any one of those categories.

team canadas have always been built around center ice, almost always around playmaking centers, and so what recchi was best at (playmaking from the wing) was thought to be redundant compared to what a guy like pat verbeek or shayne corson brought. which is frankly stupid (see also: nieuwendyk consistently picked over oates); game on the line, recchi is one of the first wingers i'd want in a best-on-best, because few guys find holes like he does, and when there isn't one there, he'll make it. but beyond having gretzky, mario, messier, lindros, sakic, and yzerman up the middle, everyone else was a clearly definable plug.

let us also not forget that luc robitaille also only made one team canada, while his exact contemporary shayne corson made two. robitaille and recchi were also the first to come to mind in the late 90s/early 2000s during the so-called "crisis of high end talent in canada hockey." adam graves and ryan smyth are very nice players, but the offensive talent was there at wing; it was just left at home more often than not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's got all those cups with the Habs on his resume, but I think the biggest thing that increases his stature is the unique position he found himself in the Summit Series - with Bobby Hull out of the picture, you can look back and say "yep, for that window in time, Cournoyer was the best winger in Canada" - a perception that's helped by the fact that he was in on some memorable goals.

Cournoyer was definitely a big game player consistently over a lot of games, but why wasn't the "best winger in Canada" ever voted a 1st Team All-Star? Competition for RW during his prime historically weak, too. The 4 times Cournoyer was a 2nd Team All Star, the 1st Teamers were 40 year old Gordie Howe, Mickey Redmond, Rod Gilbert, and Ken Hodge.

 

[MadArcand]

Finally Martinec makes an appearance!

I also must have underrated Hextall going in, I wouldn't expect him to be up yet but thinking more on it, he just might belong in this group.

LOL Recchi.

 

[seventieslord]

Finally Martinec makes an appearance!

I also must have underrated Hextall going in, I wouldn't expect him to be up yet but thinking more on it, he just might belong in this group.

LOL Recchi.

Yes, LOL that it took this long considering he's got more top-5 seasons than any of these other modern scoring wingers (Luc, Michel, Brendan) combined (1-1-0) aside from Kariya (who also has three) and the 2nd-most top-20 seasons too (10-8-6-5-4), and tied for the most cups (3-3-1-0-0) and the best playoff numbers (147/189, 127/159, 134/184, 78/92, 39/46), both in terms of raw totals and adjusted for era per-game totals. He's also got the best 7-year vsx in the group, with he, Kariya and Robitaille being a country mile ahead of Shanahan and Goulet. LOL indeed.

 

[MadArcand]

Yes, LOL that it took this long considering he's got more top-5 seasons than any of these other modern scoring wingers (Luc, Michel, Brendan) combined (1-1-0) aside from Kariya (who also has three) and the 2nd-most top-20 seasons too (10-8-6-5-4), and tied for the most cups (3-3-1-0-0) and the best playoff numbers (147/189, 134/184, 78/92, 39/46), both in terms of raw totals and adjusted for era per-game totals. He's also got the best 7-year vsx in the group, with he, Kariya and Robitaille being a country mile ahead of Shanahan and Goulet. LOL indeed.

I actually had Recchi right along Robitaille and Kariya.

But I wondered about that as the project went on. He's all career, and as secondary or tertiary player on his line at that. A peak worshiper like you making a case for a compiler like Recchi is LOL indeed indeed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I actually had Recchi right along Robitaille and Kariya.

But I wondered about that as the project went on. He's all career, and as secondary or tertiary player on his line at that. A peak worshiper like you making a case for a compiler like Recchi is LOL indeed indeed.

Not making a comment on the value of Recchi, but 70s is one of the least peak oriented regular posters here

 

[seventieslord]

Not making a comment on the value of Recchi, but 70s is one of the least peak oriented regular posters here

...And Recchi has peak anyway, so.... I really don't know what he's talking about.

Also, secondary and tertiary player on his line? In his prime? I'd like to see something that supports that, specifically in relation to the other four. There were definitely a few times he was not the star of his line, but can you not say that for the others, too?

 

[unknown33]

He had a late start, making the NHL at age 24. And he wasn't a star after 30 - he took two years off because of the war, and like many players his age had trouble getting back up to speed in the faster post-war NHL.

This is just wikipedia information, but it says he had a near career ending liver disease and had to take one year off directly after the war.

One of the players I underrated on my initial list for sure.

Peak vs Schriner/Howe?

 

[MadArcand]

...And Recchi has peak anyway, so.... I really don't know what he's talking about.

Also, secondary and tertiary player on his line? In his prime? I'd like to see something that supports that, specifically in relation to the other four. There were definitely a few times he was not the star of his line, but can you not say that for the others, too?

So aside from his early PIT days with Cullen, when was he the best player on his line?

 

[ted2019]

Yes, LOL that it took this long considering he's got more top-5 seasons than any of these other modern scoring wingers (Luc, Michel, Brendan) combined (1-1-0) aside from Kariya (who also has three) and the 2nd-most top-20 seasons too (10-8-6-5-4), and tied for the most cups (3-3-1-0-0) and the best playoff numbers (147/189, 134/184, 78/92, 39/46), both in terms of raw totals and adjusted for era per-game totals. He's also got the best 7-year vsx in the group, with he, Kariya and Robitaille being a country mile ahead of Shanahan and Goulet. LOL indeed.

I thought scoring isn't everything in these projects? It's too early for Robitallie ( more modern version of Gartner in my eyes) I thought it was early for Shanahan as well. Goulet should be another 3 votes away or so.