Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-12 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 8 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday November 24th at 9 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, Nov 23rd.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

There are 13 eligible candidates for Vote 8 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals.

***You will now rank your Top 10 when voting.***

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Johnny Bucyk
Yvan Cournoyer
Babe Dye
Michel Goulet
Bryan Hextall Sr.
Syd Howe
Paul Kariya
Vladimir Martinec
Mark Recchi
Luc Robitaille
Sweeney Schriner
Brendan Shanahan
Tommy Phillips

 

[ted2019]

Without even looking at charts and stuff, I could see Cournoyer, Kariya & Hextall Sr. making it this round. Have to check out Martinec so more.

 

[unknown33]

I recall Theokritos ranking Martinec over Mikhailov in his thread. Would be great if we could hear more about that.
Common opinion or not, if they are comparable it would make him a candidate for the Top 5 for sure.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I recall Theokritos ranking Martinec over Mikhailov in his thread. Would be great if we could hear more about that.
Common opinion or not, if they are comparable it would make him a candidate for the Top 5 for sure.

Martinec will have a strong chance of making my top 5

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I recall Theokritos ranking Martinec over Mikhailov in his thread. Would be great if we could hear more about that.
Common opinion or not, if they are comparable it would make him a candidate for the Top 5 for sure.

Really makes me want to do a top non-NHL Euros project at some point. There's a good chance that the main reason Mikhailov, Firsov, and Martinec are always ordered in the way they are is because that's the order they become available. I don't think we've ever actually had a chance to really compare them in projects like this.

Anyway, pretty sure Theokritos preferred Martinec because of his 4-2 advantage in World Championship All-Star Teams over Mikhailov while playing the same position at the same time

 

[seventieslord]

I just love that we're comparing Recchi, Kariya, Shanahan, Goulet and Robitaille all in the same round here. Bure belongs here too, but whatever.

 

[seventieslord]

It's really hard to outright dismiss anyone from this group offhand. Dye and Shanahan look better now with the Jacksons and Bentleys gone. Goulet still looks weak. the new guys are about as good as the holdovers. Excellent round coming up here.

 

[seventieslord]

It's really hard to outright dismiss anyone from this group offhand.

Actually, yes I can. Cournoyer's regular season numbers are pretty weak for this group. I'm not sure it matters that he was a playoff star - at least not against this class of players.

 

[unknown33]

Yvan Cournoyer seems to be one of those Niedermayer type player where I've seen some serious difference how he is rated by the media compared to here.

I tend to side with later right now and think he likely doesn't belong...

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Yvan Cournoyer seems to be one of those Niedermayer type player where I've seen some serious difference how he is rated by the media compared to here.

I tend to side with later right now and think he likely doesn't belong...

Agree. Wasn't his VsX somewhere in the 150s? Not that good for a guy that was all offense, is it?

 

[MXD]

Goulet, Cournoyer and Robitaille are the best here.

 

[Captain Bowie]

My gut says Phillips should be #1 or close to it this round. But I admittedly have much less knowledge on him than most here. What is his best case other than just being considered onf of the few best pre-NHL players and a great 2-way player?

Cournoyer seems to be the easy odd man out right now. Shanahan and Recchi will have to prove they belong on the top 10.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Agree. Wasn't his VsX somewhere in the 150s? Not that good for a guy that was all offense, is it?

Yes, when I post the VsX table later, I'm going to have to include a break in it just to fit Cournoyer. His regular season resume is not top 60 of all-time; whenever he gets added, it will be based mainly on his extensive playoff resume. Regular season only, Cournoyer doesn't look that different from Tony Amonte

 

[seventieslord]

Goulet, Cournoyer and Robitaille are the best here.

Huh? Goulet and Cournoyer are still likely the two weakest offensive players in this round - they'll almost certainly be unranked by me. What are you seeing here?

 

[Theokritos]

Anyway, pretty sure Theokritos preferred Martinec because of his 4-2 advantage in World Championship All-Star Teams over Mikhailov while playing the same position at the same time

Indeed. Martinec made the World Championship All-Star Team (RW spot) over Mikhailov four times in a row (1974, 75, 76, 77). That's a bit too much to declare it coincidence (small sample) IMHO.

Mikhailov beat out Martinec for the AS spot in 1973 and 1979 BTW.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Yvan Cournoyer ... how he is rated by the media compared to here.

He's got all those cups with the Habs on his resume, but I think the biggest thing that increases his stature is the unique position he found himself in the Summit Series - with Bobby Hull out of the picture, you can look back and say "yep, for that window in time, Cournoyer was the best winger in Canada" - a perception that's helped by the fact that he was in on some memorable goals.

 

[seventieslord]

My gut says Phillips should be #1 or close to it this round. But I admittedly have much less knowledge on him than most here. What is his best case other than just being considered onf of the few best pre-NHL players and a great 2-way player?

Cournoyer seems to be the easy odd man out right now. Shanahan and Recchi will have to prove they belong on the top 10.

Shanny was top-10 last round, and with four better players out of the way (plus Bure) the question should be whether he's maybe top-5.

Recchi doesn't have his intangibles but was a far better point producer and even has better playoff numbers (and three cups with less powerhouse teams than the wings). I don't see how he can't be top-10 here. actually, a straight up comparison of all these five modern guys should show Recchi and Robitaille to be the cream of this crop, with Shanahan having an outside chance simply due to a boatlad of intangibles.

re: Phillips: there's that, and then there's the stanley cup finals performances, which were all against excellent teams (wanderers, silver seven). No fluff in this playoff resume. I'm looking at you, Frank McGee...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Goulet, Cournoyer and Robitaille are the best here.

No surprise there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I love the genuine diversity of opinion we're already seeing in this round.

 

[ted2019]

I just love that we're comparing Recchi, Kariya, Shanahan, Goulet and Robitaille all in the same round here. Bure belongs here too, but whatever.

Reechi doesn't belong here IMO. Recchi was a clutch player, but was the Wingers version of Jeremy Roenick, except Recchi played better as He aged.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Shanny was top-10 last round, and with four better players out of the way (plus Bure) the question should be whether he's maybe top-5.

Recchi doesn't have his intangibles but was a far better point producer and even has better playoff numbers (and three cups with less powerhouse teams than the wings). I don't see how he can't be top-10 here. actually, a straight up comparison of all these five modern guys should show Recchi and Robitaille to be the cream of this crop, with Shanahan having an outside chance simply due to a boatlad of intangibles.

re: Phillips: there's that, and then there's the stanley cup finals performances, which were all against excellent teams (wanderers, silver seven). No fluff in this playoff resume. I'm looking at you, Frank McGee...

We don't even know if Shanahan was top 10 last round yet. I had him off my list. I may again (but may not).

I think it's time for Bucyk now too.

 

[unknown33]

Reechi doesn't belong here IMO. Recchi was a clutch player, but was the Wingers version of Jeremy Roenick, except Recchi played better as He aged.

I don't really understand how the two sentence match. Your description actually makes me think he does belong.

 

[seventieslord]

We don't even know if Shanahan was top 10 last round yet. I had him off my list. I may again (but may not).

I think it's time for Bucyk now too.

It's time for just about everyone here, except like three players. It's a real problem!

 

[seventieslord]

I don't really understand how the two sentence match. Your description actually makes me think he does belong.

Yeah, no doubt.