Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top 10 of the available defensemen
• Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
BiLLYShOE1721; Canadiens1958; chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Dreakmur; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; Hockey Outsider; intylerwetrust; JaysCyYoung; McNuts; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 8 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 6PM EST on Wednesday 1/11/12 and 6PM EST on Friday 1/13/12. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM me your votes during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 8 will be for places 36 through 40 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Rob Blake
Emile "Butch" Bouchard
Georges "Buck" Boucher
Carl Brewer
Zdeno Chara
Ebbie Goodfellow
Ernest "Moose" Johnson
Ivan "Ching" Johnson
Tom Johnson
Alexei Kasatonov
Jacques Laperriere
Larry Murphy
Hod Stuart
Jan Suchy
J.C. Tremblay

Please note that you are voting for your top 10 of the 15 available candidates.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Note on the new candidates:

Prior to this round, no elligible candidate had been left off more than 2 ballots. This time we have 2 such candidates: Buck Boucher appeared on 20 of 23 ballots and Moose Johnson only appeared on 18 of 23 ballots.

This is the last round for which we are adding 6 candidates. For the next few rounds, we're adding 5 per round to keep the number of candidates at 15.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Dreak gets his wish.

 

[overpass]

TDMM: It's Ernie "Moose" Johnson, not Daryl "Moose" Johnston.

It could get confusing, with three Johnsons up for voting at the same time...

 

[tarheelhockey]

Three Johnsons and the Bouchard/Boucher duo... this should be fun

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

TDMM: It's Ernie "Moose" Johnson, not Daryl "Moose" Johnston.

It could get confusing, with three Johnsons up for voting at the same time...

This is why I usually try avoiding posting hungover at work. Sometime I forget the real names of these guys when they are so commonly referred to by their nicknames.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brief comments on new candidates:

I'm a big fan of the new group of candidates. In fact, I'm such a fan that my first impression is to list three of them over any of the retreads from last round.

Moose Johnson was the best defenseman in PCHA history, the NHA/NHL's main rival until it folded. The PCHA champion met the champion of the NHA/NHL in the Stanley Cup finals,* and the PCHA proved itself to be basically the NHA/NHL's equal head to head. *For a few years, the WHL and PCHA champions met and the winner met the NHL in the finals. Johnston was a rushing forward for a few years, then converted to defense where he spent a long time as a shutdown defenseman, sort of a Rod Langway of his day. I don't think he peaked as high as Eddie Gerard, but he has excellent longevity as an elite player. Historian Charles Coleman actually preferred him over Gerard. Moose is a strong candidate for #1 on my list.

Ching Johnson was a hard hitting, shutdown defenseman. He was the top defenseman of the NY Rangers during the most successful period of their history. I don't see all that much seperation between Jack Stewart and Ching Johnson to be honest. Played at the exact same time as Lionel Conacher and actually has a better All-Star record. Ching is a strong candidate for my top 3 this round.

Hod Stuart was considered the best defenseman to play hockey before the Cleghorn/Gerard/Moose Johnson generation by literally every first hand account that I've read. Better than Lester Patrick, Art Ross, and Harvey Pulford. In fact, for a few years, many considered him the best overall player in the world. Stuart is the remaining player who was the highest ranked on my Round 1 list, though I'm now leaning towards Moose Johnston ahead. The counterargument is obvious - hockey was significantly weaker before World War 1 than it would be afterwards (as evidenced by the fact that the post-war generation completely supplanted the previous generation). So it's hard to know just how good Hod actually was. Some might have issues with his unimpressive longevity. Nonetheless, he enters this round a strong candidate for my top 3.

Jan Suchy might prove to be the most controversial player added yet. "The Bobby Orr of Europe" is not a misnomer - for a few short years, Suchy obliterated the competition in the late 60s. He led the Czech league (including forwards) in scoring in 1969 and scored the first goal in Czechoslovakia's shocking upset win over the USSR in the World Championships that year while Soviet tanks were still in Prague. He then finished 3rd in overall scoring (including forwards) in 1970. Three straight All Star teams at the World Championships, won 2 out of 3 "best defenseman" awards at the WCs over any Soviet defenseman (and the other year, the winner Svedberg thought Suchy should have won it). And he wasn't one-dimensional either: He is famous as the first European defenseman to regularly block shots. Two arguments against Suchy: 1) His peak was very short and basically ended in 1971 when he caused a serious car accident while driving drunk. 2) The quality of European hockey during Suchy's prime is somewhat questionable and was definitely well behind the NHL. The counterargument to #2: Was the quality of European hockey that Suchy dominated in the late 60s any worse than the quality of North American hockey that Hod Stuart dominated before World War 1? I honestly have no idea where to rank Suchy this round. Definitely looking forward to arguments on this one.

Tom Johnson is a guy I ranked fairly low on my submitted list - I saw him as kind of a one-season wonder. But then we had the discussion about Gadsby earlier and how when Harvey was injured, his teammate Johnson emerged to beat out Gadsby for the Norris. And I realized that Johnson is probably one of the star defensemen hurt most by being overshadowed by a better teammate (Doug Harvey). When Harvey was injured, Johnson stepped up big time, perhaps showing what he was capable of all along. I am not planning on having Johnson in my top 5, but I definitely think he belongs in this group of candidates.

Georges Boucher is hard for me to judge. Excellent offensive defenseman with a mean streak as well. Stats from early in his career are unreliable because he often played forward on a team with a stacked defense (Eddie Gerard, sometimes Sprague Cleghorn). In the best season of his career (1924), Boucher finished 2nd in NHL scoring among all players as a defenseman (keep in mind that half the world's best players were still playing out west in the PCHA/WHL though), but only finished 4th in Hart voting. Boucher's teammate, Frank Nighbor, won the Hart as a forward, despite being outscored by a defenseman on his own team. Sprague Cleghorn, now playing for Montreal, was a close second in Hart voting, despite not finishing in the Top 10 in overall scoring among players. To me, this indicates that Boucher probably wasn't very valuable defensively. Every contemporary source I've read indicates that Eddie Gerard and Moose Johnston were thought of more highly than Boucher. The historian Charles Coleman actually preferred Harry Cameron to Boucher. I think Boucher became a candidate at about the right time, which means I am not planning on voting for him in my top 5.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Wow. That is indeed an impressive and highly debatable group.

My approach to the early era is probably obvious at this point, but IMO anyone who is the consensus best defenseman of a long period and a rational choice for "best hockey player in the world" is a shoo-in as the best player of the round. Pre-WWI hockey might have been weak, but it wasn't THAT weak.

 

[amnesiac]

still no Ragulin?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration. Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. Hod Stuart, Moose Johnson, and Jan Suchy never played in the NHL and are not included. Kasatonov was past his prime when he reached the NHL and his consideration is based primarily off his non-NHL career.

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Ching Johnson (1928-1936): 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (incomplete data beyond top 4)*
Ebbie Goodfellow (1936-1941): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th**

Butch Bouchard (1944-1948, 1956): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Carl Brewer (1959-1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***
Jacques Laperriere (1964-1974): 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th
JC Tremblay (1966-1972): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th****

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Rob Blake (1998-2004): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Zdeno Chara (2003-2011): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th*****

*I'm including the GM-voted All Star team in 1928 - it is also supported by Hart votes. We only have top 2 Hart votes for 1930 and only the top 4 or so for other seasons before 1930. Johnson was an All Star during the first 4 years the official teams were in existence (1931-1934), so I think it's likely he would have picked up some votes if the teams existed prior to 1931.

**From 1931-1934, Goodfellow finished 3rd and 4th in AS voting for Center. We don't have complete All-Star voting for 1935 but he wasn't an official All-Star. All finishes listed above are as a defenseman.

***Brewer spent prime seasons (aged 27-30) outside the NHL due to a feud with Punch Imlach. During his "free spirit" time, he was an All-Star at the World Championships among other accolades.

****Tremblay also won 2 Dennis A. Murphy Trophies for best defenseman in the WHA, was a 1st Team WHA All Star 3 Times, and a 2nd Team WHA All Star once).

*****For those of you not following the NHL this season, Chara is well on his way to another top 5 Norris finish, barring injury.

Obsevations:

• Ching Johnson was 2nd in All Star voting to Eddie Shore three times, but 1932 was effectively a tie (Shore: 23 1st Team votes, 6 2nd Team votes. Johnson 22 1st Team votes, 8 2nd Team votes). 1932 is the season Johnson was 2nd in Hart voting to Howie Morenz, so it's likely that Johnson had a better season than Shore.
• Goodfellow won the Hart Trophy in 1940, but he received slightly fewer votes than Dit Clapper for the All-Star team. Goodfellow had 15 votes for 1st Team LD, 1 vote for 1st Team RD, 4 votes for 2nd Team LD, 5 votes for 2nd Team RD. Clapper had 5 votes for 1st Team LD, 16 votes for 1st Team RD, 3 votes for 2nd Team LD, and 1 vote for 2nd Team RD.
• Butch Bouchard almost rivals Niedermayer in terms of shortness of peak, and his 4 All Star finishes were during the 2 worst War years and the 2 years following. After 1948, Bouchard only has the 1 6th place finish in 1956.
• Tom Johnson won his Norris the season his teammate, Doug Harvey, was injured and playing less effectively than usual.
• Jacques Laperriere had an injury-shortened career and his team won in the playoffs when he was injured. But he got Norris votes almost every season of his career.
• Hard to know just what to make of J.C. Tremblay's WHA years.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looking at their all star records, their relative levels of competition, and their circumstances, I think I'm starting to prefer Tom Johnson to Butch Bouchard. Any thoughts?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

still no Ragulin?

When they all played head to head at the World Championships, both Jan Suchy and Lennart Svedberg got the All-Star nods over Ragulin.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Looking at their all star records, their relative levels of competition, and their circumstances, I think I'm starting to prefer Tom Johnson to Butch Bouchard. Any thoughts?

I haven't formed an opinion on that one yet, but this would be a good time to talk about how much we should punish Bouchard for the weakness of the WWII era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I haven't formed an opinion on that one yet, but this would be a good time to talk about how much we should punish Bouchard for the weakness of the WWII era.

Well, competition was a hell of a lot weaker during 1944 or 1945 than any time during Chara or Blake's career. 1946 wasn't much better.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Fixed an error in Ching Johnson's all-star record above. They should all be accurate now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well, competition was a hell of a lot weaker during 1944 or 1945 than any time during Chara or Blake's career. 1946 wasn't much better.

No doubt about it. When it comes to day-to-day competition, Bouchard is as the bottom of the pile except for maybe Suchy.

To clarify the question, how much does Bouchard's competition reflect on Bouchard? In theory he could have still been an amazing player in a weak league.

As a first stab at it, here's more detail on his AS record:

1944 - 1st place was a dead heat between over-the-hill Earl Siebert and veteran-prime Babe Pratt, who also won the Hart. Bouchard finished a distant 3rd, but oddly he got more first-place votes than Pratt. Just behind Bouchard was an aging Dit Clapper in his final good season.
Conclusion: There's no shame in finishing behind Siebert and even with Clapper, except that both were past their best days. It's noteworthy that Bouchard had 6 1st-place votes, more than the Hart winner.

1945 - Bouchard finished ahead of Pratt, Flash Hollett and Glen Harmon in what could be fairly called a landslide. Nobody else approached him in 1st place votes, though it's noteworthy that Jack Crawford and Leo Lamoreaux got 3 each.
Conclusion: This is the season that gives me the most trouble, as it was Bouchard's finest hour but accomplished against a background of Clapper and Seibert getting ready to retire, and only a couple of other players who would even be considered for a low rank our list. If I have time, I might do some research on this season to see whether Bouchard was "all time" good or just "among his peers" good.

1946 - Bouchard finished roughly tied with Jack Stewart and Jack Crawford. Ken Reardon wasn't too far behind. Bill Quackenbush, in his 4th pro season, was farther back.
Conclusion: This isn't terrible company, and the closeness of the voting suggests that Bouchard was about on Stewart's level this season. Stewart of course was in his first season back from the war.

1947 - The same cohort -- Bouchard, Stewart, Reardon, Quackenbush, Crawford -- finished in a cluster. All were roughly mid-career.
Conclusion: Again, being about level with 2 inductees is solid. I don't know off the top of my head if each of them had strong or weak seasons.

Overall:. The overall competition was weak but he compared moderately well to some guys we rated highly. Finishing even or behind Seibert and Clapper, and even or ahead of Stewart and Quackenbush, suggests he was the equivalent of one of our 30-ish guys at his best.

Where it gets dicey for me is that he had all of 4 seasons at that level, with only one where he might have been better. The severe lack of longetivity as an elite player means his chances of getting on my ballot at all this round aren't looking too good.

 

[steve141]

Jan Suchy might prove to be the most controversial player added yet. "The Bobby Orr of Europe" is not a misnomer - for a few short years, Suchy obliterated the competition in the late 60s. He led the Czech league (including forwards) in scoring in 1969 and scored the first goal in Czechoslovakia's shocking upset win over the USSR in the World Championships that year while Soviet tanks were still in Prague. He then finished 3rd in overall scoring (including forwards) in 1970. Three straight All Star teams at the World Championships, won 2 out of 3 "best defenseman" awards at the WCs over any Soviet defenseman (and the other year, the winner Svedberg thought Suchy should have won it). And he wasn't one-dimensional either: He is famous as the first European defenseman to regularly block shots. Two arguments against Suchy: 1) His peak was very short and basically ended in 1971 when he caused a serious car accident while driving drunk. 2) The quality of European hockey during Suchy's prime is somewhat questionable and was definitely well behind the NHL. The counterargument to #2: Was the quality of European hockey that Suchy dominated in the late 60s any worse than the quality of North American hockey that Hod Stuart dominated before World War 1? I honestly have no idea where to rank Suchy this round. Definitely looking forward to arguments on this one.

This has gotten blown out of proportion. It's not like Svedberg refused the award, he was just an extremely humble person. If you read interviews with him he always finds a way to credit the team even if it's obvious from the scoresheet that he did all the work.

Considering the great reputation Svedberg got from his performances in the WCs I see no reason to doubt that he actually was the best defenceman when he got the award.

 

[overpass]

No doubt about it. When it comes to day-to-day competition, Bouchard is as the bottom of the pile except for maybe Suchy.

To clarify the question, how much does Bouchard's competition reflect on Bouchard? In theory he could have still been an amazing player in a weak league.

As a first stab at it, here's more detail on his AS record:

1944 - 1st place was a dead heat between over-the-hill Earl Siebert and veteran-prime Babe Pratt, who also won the Hart. Bouchard finished a distant 3rd, but oddly he got more first-place votes than Pratt. Just behind Bouchard was an aging Dit Clapper in his final good season.
Conclusion: There's no shame in finishing behind Siebert and even with Clapper, except that both were past their best days. It's noteworthy that Bouchard had 6 1st-place votes, more than the Hart winner.

1945 - Bouchard finished ahead of Pratt, Flash Hollett and Glen Harmon in what could be fairly called a landslide. Nobody else approached him in 1st place votes, though it's noteworthy that Jack Crawford and Leo Lamoreaux got 3 each.
Conclusion: This is the season that gives me the most trouble, as it was Bouchard's finest hour but accomplished against a background of Clapper and Seibert getting ready to retire, and only a couple of other players who would even be considered for a low rank our list. If I have time, I might do some research on this season to see whether Bouchard was "all time" good or just "among his peers" good.

1946 - Bouchard finished roughly tied with Jack Stewart and Jack Crawford. Ken Reardon wasn't too far behind. Bill Quackenbush, in his 4th pro season, was farther back.
Conclusion: This isn't terrible company, and the closeness of the voting suggests that Bouchard was about on Stewart's level this season. Stewart of course was in his first season back from the war.

1947 - The same cohort -- Bouchard, Stewart, Reardon, Quackenbush, Crawford -- finished in a cluster. All were roughly mid-career.
Conclusion: Again, being about level with 2 inductees is solid. I don't know off the top of my head if each of them had strong or weak seasons.

Overall:. The overall competition was weak but he compared moderately well to some guys we rated highly. Finishing even or behind Seibert and Clapper, and even or ahead of Stewart and Quackenbush, suggests he was the equivalent of one of our 30-ish guys at his best.

Where it gets dicey for me is that he had all of 4 seasons at that level, with only one where he might have been better. The severe lack of longetivity as an elite player means his chances of getting on my ballot at all this round aren't looking too good.

I suspect that the all-star voting records for 1944 and 1945 are listed as follows: 1st place (LD), 1st place (RD), 2nd place (LD), 2nd place (RD).

So in 1944 Pratt played RD, and actually received 21 first place votes, not 2.

Adding the two defence positions together, the results are

1944: Babe Pratt 632 (21-5), Earl Seibert 612 (20-8), Butch Bouchard 277 (8-10), Dit Clapper 129 (4-3), Flash Hollett 93 (0-10)

1945: Butch Bouchard 340.5 (25-1), Flash Hollett 273 (13-12), Babe Pratt 93.5 (2-14), Glen Harmon 60 (2-2), Frank Eddolls 58.5 (1-3), Jack Crawford 57 (5-4), Earl Seibert 45 (1-8)

It looks like Bouchard was a nearly unanimous first-team all-star in1944-45, but of course that was against weak competition. Unfortunately, because of the ballot structure, we don't know how many writers would have ranked him as the best defenceman and how many would have placed him second.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration. Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. Hod Stuart, Moose Johnson, and Jan Suchy never played in the NHL and are not included. Kasatonov was past his prime when he reached the NHL and his consideration is based primarily off his non-NHL career.

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Ching Johnson (1928-1936): 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (incomplete data beyond top 4)*
Ebbie Goodfellow (1936-1941): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th**

Butch Bouchard (1944-1948, 1956): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Carl Brewer (1959-1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***
Jacques Laperriere (1964-1974): 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th
JC Tremblay (1966-1972): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th****

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Rob Blake (1998-2004): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Zdeno Chara (2003-2011): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th*****

*I'm including the GM-voted All Star team in 1928 - it is also supported by Hart votes. We only have top 2 Hart votes for 1930 and only the top 4 or so for other seasons before 1930. Johnson was an All Star during the first 4 years the official teams were in existence (1931-1934), so I think it's likely he would have picked up some votes if the teams existed prior to 1931. We are missing full data from 1934-35. Considering Johnson was 2nd in AS voting in 1934 and finished 6th in 1936, he was very likely a top 10 defenseman that season.

**From 1931-1934, Goodfellow finished 3rd and 4th in AS voting for Center. We don't have complete All-Star voting for 1935 but he wasn't an official All-Star. All finishes listed above are as a defenseman.

***Brewer spent prime seasons (aged 27-30) outside the NHL due to a feud with Punch Imlach. During his "free spirit" time, he was an All-Star at the World Championships among other accolades.

****Tremblay also won 2 Dennis A. Murphy Trophies for best defenseman in the WHA, was a 1st Team WHA All Star 3 Times, and a 2nd Team WHA All Star once).

*****For those of you not following the NHL this season, Chara is well on his way to another top 5 Norris finish, barring injury.

Obsevations:

• Ching Johnson was 2nd in All Star voting to Eddie Shore three times, but 1932 was effectively a tie (Shore: 23 1st Team votes, 6 2nd Team votes. Johnson 22 1st Team votes, 8 2nd Team votes). 1932 is the season Johnson was 2nd in Hart voting to Howie Morenz, so it's likely that Johnson had a better season than Shore.
• Goodfellow won the Hart Trophy in 1940, but he received slightly fewer votes than Dit Clapper for the All-Star team. Goodfellow had 15 votes for 1st Team LD, 1 vote for 1st Team RD, 4 votes for 2nd Team LD, 5 votes for 2nd Team RD. Clapper had 5 votes for 1st Team LD, 16 votes for 1st Team RD, 3 votes for 2nd Team LD, and 1 vote for 2nd Team RD.
• Butch Bouchard almost rivals Niedermayer in terms of shortness of peak, and his 4 All Star finishes were during the 2 worst War years and the 2 years following. After 1948, Bouchard only has the 1 6th place finish in 1956.
• Tom Johnson won his Norris the season his teammate, Doug Harvey, was injured and playing less effectively than usual.
• Jacques Laperriere had an injury-shortened career and his team won in the playoffs when he was injured. But he got Norris votes almost every season of his career.
• Hard to know just what to make of J.C. Tremblay's WHA years.

Looks good for Laperriere this time, yet I get the feeling he still doesn't get enough recognition for his record. Even though Canadiens1958 (one who might know) stated J.C. Tremblay was not on the same level as Laperriere, Tremblay finished ahead of him in the voting.

It should be noted that Laperriere was most likely the mentor for Savard, Lapointe & Robinson. Considering he was an asistant coach in the NHL for 22 years (mostly with Montreal) I would guess he was mainly a teacher for young defensemen.

Once again, when he played at the same time as Savard (7 seasons) their numbers were very similar, with perhaps a slight edge to Laperriere.

Also should be noted that between 1969-75, Bobby Orr led the league in +/- except for the year Laperriere won (1973).

And yes, I am shamelessly campaigning for Laperriere.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration. Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. Hod Stuart, Moose Johnson, and Jan Suchy never played in the NHL and are not included. Kasatonov was past his prime when he reached the NHL and his consideration is based primarily off his non-NHL career.

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Ching Johnson (1928-1936): 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (incomplete data beyond top 4)*
Ebbie Goodfellow (1936-1941): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th**

Butch Bouchard (1944-1948, 1956): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Carl Brewer (1959-1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***
Jacques Laperriere (1964-1974): 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th
JC Tremblay (1966-1972): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th****

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Rob Blake (1998-2004): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Zdeno Chara (2003-2011): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th*****

This may or may not be useful.

Most Top 2 finishes

3. Ching Johnson, Butch Bouchard
2. Ebbie Goodfellow, Jacques Laperriere, Zdeno Chara
1. Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer, JC Tremblay, Rob Blake
0. Larry Murphy

Most Top 3 finishes

4. Ching Johnson, Butch Bouchard, Zdeno Chara
3. Ebbie Goodfellow, Rob Blake
2. Carl Brewer, Jacques Laperriere, JC Tremblay, Larry Murphy
1. Tom Johnson

Most Top 5 finishes

6. Jacques Laperriere
5. Ching Johnson,* JC Tremblay, Rob Blake , Zdeno Chara
4. Ebbie Goodfellow, Butch Bouchard, Larry Murphy
3. Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer

*We don't have top 5 voting for his whole career, so he might have more

When you consider how much stronger the competition for Ching Johnson and Zdeno Chara was than for Butch Bouchard, those two look awfully good this round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No doubt about it. When it comes to day-to-day competition, Bouchard is as the bottom of the pile except for maybe Suchy.

To clarify the question, how much does Bouchard's competition reflect on Bouchard? In theory he could have still been an amazing player in a weak league.

As a first stab at it, here's more detail on his AS record:

1944 - 1st place was a dead heat between over-the-hill Earl Siebert and veteran-prime Babe Pratt, who also won the Hart. Bouchard finished a distant 3rd, but oddly he got more first-place votes than Pratt. Just behind Bouchard was an aging Dit Clapper in his final good season.
Conclusion: There's no shame in finishing behind Siebert and even with Clapper, except that both were past their best days. It's noteworthy that Bouchard had 6 1st-place votes, more than the Hart winner.

1945 - Bouchard finished ahead of Pratt, Flash Hollett and Glen Harmon in what could be fairly called a landslide. Nobody else approached him in 1st place votes, though it's noteworthy that Jack Crawford and Leo Lamoreaux got 3 each.
Conclusion: This is the season that gives me the most trouble, as it was Bouchard's finest hour but accomplished against a background of Clapper and Seibert getting ready to retire, and only a couple of other players who would even be considered for a low rank our list. If I have time, I might do some research on this season to see whether Bouchard was "all time" good or just "among his peers" good.

1946 - Bouchard finished roughly tied with Jack Stewart and Jack Crawford. Ken Reardon wasn't too far behind. Bill Quackenbush, in his 4th pro season, was farther back.
Conclusion: This isn't terrible company, and the closeness of the voting suggests that Bouchard was about on Stewart's level this season. Stewart of course was in his first season back from the war.

1947 - The same cohort -- Bouchard, Stewart, Reardon, Quackenbush, Crawford -- finished in a cluster. All were roughly mid-career.
Conclusion: Again, being about level with 2 inductees is solid. I don't know off the top of my head if each of them had strong or weak seasons.

Overall:. The overall competition was weak but he compared moderately well to some guys we rated highly. Finishing even or behind Seibert and Clapper, and even or ahead of Stewart and Quackenbush, suggests he was the equivalent of one of our 30-ish guys at his best.

Where it gets dicey for me is that he had all of 4 seasons at that level, with only one where he might have been better. The severe lack of longetivity as an elite player means his chances of getting on my ballot at all this round aren't looking too good.

It's worse than that. Here's a study that hfboards poster arrbez did on which players left during which years for the war: https://spreadsheets0.google.com/sp...7edGdqV2RMYnBWTzVKRVFYQzI5TlVaalE&output=html. You can see how pretty much every team but Montreal was gutted by the war (and Montreal itself lost Ken Reardon, who would have competed with teammate Bouchard for awards recognition).

As for individual years.

1944: Dit Clapper's last season as an all-star was 1941 and he didn't come close in 1942 or 1943. Then all of a sudden most of the younger players go to fight the war, and an aging Clapper is the best of what's left, picking up a 2nd Team All Star along the way. Terrible.

1945: You covered it. Bouchard dominated absolutely garbage competition.

1946: IMO, this year is almost as tainted as 1944 and 1945. You need to remember that the NHL's last major change to the offsides rules before 2006 happened in 1944 - for the first time ever, players were allowed to pass the puck forward between zones. Imagine how that changed a defenseman's job during transition, both for his own team, and especially defending the other team! Butch, as a guy who stayed through the War, had a two-year headstart on anyone coming back in terms of adjusting to the new rules. While guys like Jack Stewart and Ken Reardon who fought in the war had to learn things on the fly.

1947 and 1948 are less tainted but still had fairly poor competition. Butch was a 1st Teamer in 1947 and would have been a hypothetical "3rd Teamer" in 1948 - though when competition is relatively poor, perhaps it isn't anything special to be a "3rd Teamer." Then he broke his leg and settled into a long career as a role player who was highly valued for his leadership.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I plan on posting extensively about Moose Johnson and Ching Johnson, two guys I think deserve to make it this round. Posting this as a way to "divide the research" if anyone feels like it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I suspect that the all-star voting records for 1944 and 1945 are listed as follows: 1st place (LD), 1st place (RD), 2nd place (LD), 2nd place (RD).

So in 1944 Pratt played RD, and actually received 21 first place votes, not 2.

That would make more sense, but where are the numbers coming from? Our resident awards thread doesn't show the position split or the extra votes.

I'm just starting to investigate that tricky 1945 season, but here are some surface impressions:

- Bouchard scored 11-23-34 that season. The other totals of his 5-year peak were 2-16-18, 5-14-19, 7-10-17, and 5-7-12.

- While 34 points was certainly a good season, a few defensemen were getting into the 40s around that time so it's not a knock-your-socks off total.

The nearly-50% jump compared to his next best years is something I'd like to be able to explain. If it was entirely circumstantial, due to the quality of play league wide, that should really hurt his chances. But I would like to verify it before jumping to conclusions.

- In looking at the numbers, I noticed that one Mike McMahon played on the Habs in 1944, his only NHL season among an unimpressive minor-league career, and outscored Bouchard. That isn't a good sign.

- From 44 to 45, the Habs reeled off a ludicrous GF/GA ratio of almost 2:1. I'm not sure whether that comes out as a positive or negative for Bouchard, but it's an important bit of context for his stats and voting.

- After 1945 their scoring tailed off dramatically, so Boucher might not be entirely responsible for the decline in his numbers. Ditto his voting, seeing as the team around him declined rapidly.

Of course this is only measuring half his game. I'll need to figure out a way to evaluate his defense during that timeframe before making a judgment on his overall level of play.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

- After 1945 their scoring tailed off dramatically, so Boucher might not be entirely responsible for the decline in his numbers. Ditto his voting, seeing as the team around him declined rapidly.

The Montreal Canadiens didn't decline, the rest of the league just came back from the War. Other than Reardon, Montreal wasn't hurt all that much.

Here's another way to look at it - In 1943, the best three goalies in the world were Frank Brimsek (Boston), Turk Broda (Toronto), and Johnny Mowers (Detroit). All three of them left to fight the war in 1944 and were replaced by minor league scrubs for the relatively unscathed Montreal team to light up. Meanwhile, Bill Durnan emerged as a star of his own in Montreal.

1945 is the season Maurice Richard scored 50 in 50.