Round 2, Vote 7 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

Canadiens1958 · Jun 6, 2017

New Data

overpass said:
The recently released playoff plus-minus data makes J.C. Tremblay look very good.

J.C. Tremblay's NHL Playoff Career

Year | GP | G | A | P | +/- | Team +/- | Off-ice +/-
1961 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
1962 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 2 | -1 | -4 | -3
1963 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | -4 | -9 | -5
1964 | 7 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 0 | -5
1965 | 13 | 1 | 9 | 10 | 4 | -5 | -9
1966 | 10 | 2 | 9 | 11 | 1 | 6 | 5
1967 | 10 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10 | 2
1968 | 13 | 3 | 6 | 9 | 14 | 19 | 5
1969 | 13 | 1 | 4 | 5 | 8 | 8 | 0
1971 | 20 | 3 | 14 | 17 | 5 | 13 | 8
1972 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 2 | -3 | -3 | 0
Total | 108 | 14 | 51 | 65 | 37 | 36 | -1

Tremblay was +37 on a team that was -1 when he was off the ice in the playoffs. During the 1965-1969 dynasty years, Tremblay was +35 on a team that was +3 when he was off the ice.

Montreal Canadiens leaders - playoff plus-minus 1961-1972
1. J.C. Tremblay: +37
2. Jacques Laperriere: +23
3. Jean Beliveau: +20

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...11972&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=plusMinus

NHL leaders - playoff plus-minus 1961-1972
1. Bobby Orr: +50
2. Dallas Smith: +39 (Bobby Orr's partner)
3. J.C. Tremblay: +37

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...11972&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=plusMinus

Tremblay was an elite scoring defenceman in the 1965-1969 playoffs, finishing third on his team in points. He was among the top scorers at even strength (22 points in 59 games, 5th on the team) and on the power play (17 points in 59 games, 4th on the team).

Leading Montreal Canadiens playoff scorers, 1965-1969

Player | GP | G | A | P | EVP | PPP
Jean Beliveau | 57 | 31 | 32 | 63 | 30 | 33
Dick Duff | 60 | 16 | 26 | 42 | 25 | 17
J.C. Tremblay | 59 | 9 | 32 | 41 | 22 | 17
Henri Richard | 58 | 18 | 22 | 40 | 28 | 12
Bobby Rousseau | 60 | 15 | 25 | 40 | 15 | 24
Yvan Cournoyer | 59 | 17 | 22 | 39 | 16 | 23
Ralph Backstrom | 60 | 17 | 16 | 33 | 29 | 4

While the new data is a great breakthrough it is not perfect. A review of the +/- against the HSP shows that the numbers do not balance completely.

Also you have the deployment question as raised by MXD. 1969 against Boston and Bobby Orr, checking the HSP it is rather clear that Serge Savard was matched against Bobby Orr, his rival going back to junior days. Why not J.C. Tremblay?

Likewise against Bobby Hull, especially in Chicago? Faced the Hawks in 1961, 1962, 1965(finals), 1968, 1971(finals) playoffs. In Chicago during the five series the Canadiens were 3-12, outscored 31 to 43.
At the Forum the Canadiens were 13 and 3 against Chicago during the same five series.

Interestingly game 7 hilites of the 1971 Finals are available:

Chicago feed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBzm7QWEkI

HNC feed - with Danny Gallivan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UrQXgAEdUM

As the game ends, the two Canadiens defencemen on the ice protecting the lead are Harper and Laperriere.

Hockey Outsider · Jun 6, 2017

All data has been compiled in good faith. Let me know if you see any errors.

Here's some raw data to (hopefully) start the discussion:

MOST TIMES LEADING TEAM IN GOALS IN PLAYOFFS

MOST TIMES LEADING TEAM IN ASSISTS IN PLAYOFFS

MOST TIMES LEADING TEAM IN POINTS IN PLAYOFFS

MOST TIMES PLACING IN TOP FIVE IN PLAYOFFS - GOALS

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|Total
Bobby Hull* | 3 | 1 | 1 | | 1 | 6
Frank Mahovlich* | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | | 5
Dickie Moore* | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 2 | 5
Jari Kurri* | 4 | | | | | 4
Jacques Lemaire* | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | 3
Sergei Fedorov* | 1 | | | | | 1
Howie Morenz* | | 1 | | | | 1
Paul Coffey* | | | 1 | | | 1
Steve Yzerman* | | | | 1 | | 1
Ray Bourque* | | | | | | 0
Scott Stevens* | | | | | | 0
Chris Pronger* | | | | | | 0
Duncan Keith | | | | | | 0
Al MacInnis* | | | | | | 0
J.C. Tremblay | | | | | | 0

MOST TIMES PLACING IN TOP FIVE IN PLAYOFFS - ASSISTS

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|Total
Bobby Hull* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | | 5
Dickie Moore* | 2 | 1 | | | 1 | 4
Sergei Fedorov* | 2 | | 1 | | 1 | 4
Frank Mahovlich* | 1 | | 2 | | 1 | 4
Jari Kurri* | | | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4
J.C. Tremblay | 1 | 2 | | | | 3
Paul Coffey* | | 1 | 1 | | 1 | 3
Ray Bourque* | | | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Jacques Lemaire* | | | 2 | 1 | | 3
Al MacInnis* | 2 | | | | 1 | 3
Steve Yzerman* | 1 | 1 | | | | 2
Duncan Keith | 1 | | | | 1 | 2
Howie Morenz* | 1 | | 1 | | | 2
Chris Pronger* | | | 1 | 1 | | 2
Scott Stevens* | | | | | | 0

MOST TIMES PLACING IN TOP FIVE IN PLAYOFFS - POINTS

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|Total
Dickie Moore* | 2 | 1 | | 2 | | 5
Bobby Hull* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | | 5
Frank Mahovlich* | 1 | | 2 | | 2 | 5
Jacques Lemaire* | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5
Jari Kurri* | | 1 | 2 | 1 | | 4
Sergei Fedorov* | 1 | 1 | 1 | | | 3
Paul Coffey* | | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 3
Steve Yzerman* | 1 | 1 | | | | 2
Al MacInnis* | 1 | | 1 | | | 2
J.C. Tremblay | | 1 | | | | 1
Chris Pronger* | | | 1 | | | 1
Duncan Keith | | | | 1 | | 1
Ray Bourque* | | | | | | 0
Scott Stevens* | | | | | | 0
Howie Morenz* | | | | | | 0

PLAYERS WHO SCORED LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THEIR TEAMS' GOALS (MIN 50 GAMES)

Player|GP|Goals|TMG|Percentage
Bobby Hull* | 119 | 62 | 332 | 18.7%
Howie Morenz* | 39 | 13 | 73 | 17.8%
Jari Kurri* | 200 | 106 | 844 | 12.6%
Frank Mahovlich* | 137 | 51 | 417 | 12.2%
Dickie Moore* | 135 | 46 | 390 | 11.8%
Jacques Lemaire* | 145 | 61 | 538 | 11.3%
Steve Yzerman* | 196 | 70 | 700 | 10%
Sergei Fedorov* | 183 | 52 | 568 | 9.2%
Paul Coffey* | 194 | 59 | 867 | 6.8%
Al MacInnis* | 177 | 39 | 608 | 6.4%
Ray Bourque* | 214 | 41 | 695 | 5.9%
Chris Pronger* | 173 | 26 | 506 | 5.1%
Duncan Keith | 122 | 18 | 377 | 4.8%
J.C. Tremblay | 108 | 14 | 326 | 4.3%
Scott Stevens* | 233 | 26 | 686 | 3.8%

PLAYERS WHO ASSISTED ON LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THEIR TEAMS' GOALS (MIN 50 GAMES)

Player|GP|Assists|TMG|Percentage
Sergei Fedorov* | 183 | 124 | 568 | 21.8%
Bobby Hull* | 119 | 67 | 332 | 20.2%
Ray Bourque* | 214 | 139 | 695 | 20%
Al MacInnis* | 177 | 121 | 608 | 19.9%
Chris Pronger* | 173 | 95 | 506 | 18.8%
Duncan Keith | 122 | 62 | 377 | 16.4%
Steve Yzerman* | 196 | 115 | 700 | 16.4%
Dickie Moore* | 135 | 64 | 390 | 16.4%
Frank Mahovlich* | 137 | 67 | 417 | 16.1%
Paul Coffey* | 194 | 137 | 867 | 15.8%
J.C. Tremblay | 108 | 51 | 326 | 15.6%
Jari Kurri* | 200 | 127 | 844 | 15%
Jacques Lemaire* | 145 | 78 | 538 | 14.5%
Scott Stevens* | 233 | 92 | 686 | 13.4%
Howie Morenz* | 39 | 9 | 73 | 12.3%

PLAYERS WHO SCORED OR ASSISTED ON LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THEIR TEAMS' GOALS (MIN 50 GAMES)

Player|GP|Points|TMG|Percentage
Bobby Hull* | 119 | 129 | 332 | 38.9%
Sergei Fedorov* | 183 | 176 | 568 | 31%
Howie Morenz* | 39 | 22 | 73 | 30.1%
Frank Mahovlich* | 137 | 118 | 417 | 28.3%
Dickie Moore* | 135 | 110 | 390 | 28.2%
Jari Kurri* | 200 | 233 | 844 | 27.6%
Steve Yzerman* | 196 | 185 | 700 | 26.4%
Al MacInnis* | 177 | 160 | 608 | 26.3%
Ray Bourque* | 214 | 180 | 695 | 25.9%
Jacques Lemaire* | 145 | 139 | 538 | 25.8%
Chris Pronger* | 173 | 121 | 506 | 23.9%
Paul Coffey* | 194 | 196 | 867 | 22.6%
Duncan Keith | 122 | 80 | 377 | 21.2%
J.C. Tremblay | 108 | 65 | 326 | 19.9%
Scott Stevens* | 233 | 118 | 686 | 17.2%

Note: the data for tables 4-6 are from 1927-2016 (explaining why Morenz is shown as never leading the playoffs in scoring - his big playoff years occurred before that). The other six tables are from 1918-2016.

Canadiens1958 · Jun 6, 2017

J. C. Tremblay vs Jacques Laperriere

Further to posts up thread about J. C. Tremblay and his strong +/- in the playoffs. Raw numbers but adjusted to games played he is marginally better than Jacques Laperriere who played fewer games.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...11972&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=plusMinus

Seems like the Laperriere/Harper pairing drew the tougher defensive assignments.

Further more when Jacques Laperriere and Terry Harper finished game 7 of the 1971 SC final succesfully defending a one goal lead, Laperriere was playing with a broken arm, sustained in game 2. Effectively Jacques Laperrier playing with a broken arm was a better situational option than a healtier J. C. Tremblay. Gazette story linked below:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TJcuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kKEFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=1800,1299763

Killion · Jun 6, 2017

Canadiens1958 said:
...Laperriere was playing with a broken arm, sustained in game 2...

... appears to me "badly bruised" having sustained a shot to it. but "broken"?... regardless semi-ambulatory, pain killers required, freezing... not exactly 100%.

quoipourquoi · Jun 7, 2017

Throwing it out there again...

1998: 10 points in 10 games
2000: 7 points in 7 games
2002: 8 points in 9 games
2006: 21 points in 24 games
2007: 15 points in 19 games
2008: 5 points in 6 games
2009: 10 points in 13 games
2010: 18 points in 23 games

...not a forward. A defensive defenseman. Best player for Stanley Cup Finalists on three different franchises in five years - not a single teammate on those teams in sight for this project. Played just as much as Doug Gilmour who only made it to one Final. Teams were only upset twice, but won nine series as underdogs. Have to say, I think we're missing out on Chris Pronger.

And for those who are holding back because he didn't do enough in the Western Conference when it was dominated by Colorado and Detroit and Dallas - against whom he played 32 of his first 73 playoff games - we actually had a thread about how punishing that Conference was to players' numbers about a month ago.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2347351

He's one of the rare plus players with substantial time against the best teams.

vs. COL/DET/DAL
32 GP, 2-16-18, +3

vs. Anyone Else (1996-2002)
41 GP, 7-21-28, +8

We appear to have anointed Sidney Crosby as the best post-2005 lockout playoff performer during our parade of Centers (14 of 30 are Centers so far), but I think we're overlooking the biggest game-changer in the first half of that time frame. Pronger hasn't played in 6 years and yet the only defenseman to pass his 70 points in 88 playoff games from 2006-onward is Duncan Keith with an extra 2 goals and 9 assists spread over 38 more games.

So for the voters that were super-high on Gilmour despite the unfortunate abbrieviated playoffs from running into great teams (which didn't affect his 1980s St Louis run as much as one might think, given the divisional format), I'm not sure why Pronger doesn't hit those same notes.

Killion · Jun 7, 2017

quoipourquoi said:
... Pronger hasn't played in 6 years and yet the only defenseman to pass his 70 points in 88 playoff games from 2006-onward is Duncan Keith with an extra 2 goals and 9 assists spread over 38 more games.

... K... forget Crosby & Pronger... goin with Keef on this one qpq... de-tuned, 5 strings... cant read a sheet, operated on instinct & feel alone. thats why. :toothless

TheDevilMadeMe · Jun 7, 2017

Speaking of playoff plus/minus, Scott Stevens is 2nd to only Peter Forsberg in the decade between the first two lockouts (1995-2004):

1. Forsberg +47
2. Stevens + 41
3. C Lemieux +35
4a. Fedorov +34
4b. Lidstrom +34
6a. Murphy +28
6b. Shanahan +28

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...s_playoffs=Y&threshhold=5&order_by=plus_minus

And, of course, he did it while seeing perhaps the toughest matchups of any player in the game.

Also unlike (for example) Serge Savard (added last round), he didn't have an elite partner to help shoulder the load. In 1995, his partner was usually Shawn Chambers, but switched to Ken Daneyko to match up with Lindros in the ECF. Chambers was Stevens' regular partner until 1997. Then Stevens spent a few years paired with a succession of rookies (and sometimes Tommy Albelin) until an overaged rookie named Brian Rafalski finally stuck in 2000. (Niedermayer was regularly partnered with Daneyko this whole time).

Canadiens1958 · Jun 7, 2017

Partners

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Speaking of playoff plus/minus, Scott Stevens is 2nd to only Peter Forsberg in the decade between the first two lockouts (1995-2004):

1. Forsberg +47
2. Stevens + 41
3. C Lemieux +35
4a. Fedorov +34
4b. Lidstrom +34
6a. Murphy +28
6b. Shanahan +28

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...s_playoffs=Y&threshhold=5&order_by=plus_minus

And, of course, he did it while seeing perhaps the toughest matchups of any player in the game.

Also unlike (for example) Serge Savard (added last round), he didn't have an elite partner to help shoulder the load. In 1995, his partner was usually Shawn Chambers, but switched to Ken Daneyko to match up with Lindros in the ECF. Chambers was Stevens' regular partner until 1997. Then Stevens spent a few years paired with a succession of rookies (and sometimes Tommy Albelin) until an overaged rookie named Brian Rafalski finally stuck in 2000. (Niedermayer was regularly partnered with Daneyko this whole time).

Partners tend to be a function of skating ability or the ability to adapt to the pace of the weaker skater, especially skating backwards, since the pairing has to function in harmony.Stevens was more effective without Chambers than with. Two playoff runs that they were teammates Chambers had a +/- of 0 while Stevens was +8.

Prime example Dallas Smith with Bobby Orr. Smith was a stay at home, reliable defenceman that Orr knew where to find on the ice, so Orr had the freedom to play his game.

Since 2006 handedness is a growing concern. Keith, paired with Seabrooke, most of the time being a great example.

quoipourquoi · Jun 7, 2017

Not to get too tied up in intrapositional arguments, but how does everyone see the eligible goaltenders? I'm leaning towards Benedict, but I find myself waivering on Smith vs. Sawchuk. Smith's overtime performance seems to separate him from his three previously named teammates - and he may very well be in that Roy, Sakic, Richard, Giguere range of the absolute best past 60 minutes. Is there any eligible player who has that same edge in overtime?

MXD · Jun 7, 2017

quoipourquoi said:
Not to get too tied up in intrapositional arguments, but how does everyone see the eligible goaltenders? I'm leaning towards Benedict, but I find myself waivering on Smith vs. Sawchuk. Smith's overtime performance seems to separate him from his three previously named teammates - and he may very well be in that Roy, Sakic, Richard, Giguere range of the absolute best past 60 minutes. Is there any eligible player who has that same edge in overtime?

That's probably not what you'd like to hear for an answer, but I prefer not to think about it. I mean, Smith looks reasonably close to Sawchuk and Parent (but in both cases there are reasonable close, and, in some ways, better, comparables who aren't eligible), and the first thing that comes to mind with Brodeur and Benedict is : "WHY".

(I'm not saying I have no part to do with any of these being available for voting)

My biggest gripe with Smith is that the teams he faced in the later rounds tended to be not really good, but that has absolutely nothing to do with him, and that, in this group of goaltenders, it doesn't hurt him, at all.

overpass · Jun 7, 2017

Conn Smythe Trophy Candidates - 1960s

Conn Smythe Trophy Candidates - 1960s

1965
Jean Beliveau (winner), Bobby Hull, Claude Provost, J.C. Tremblay

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19650501&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Dink Carroll, Montreal Gazette, May 1, 1965, p.42: Jean Beliveau and Bobby Hull are conceded to be the leading candidates for the new Conn Smythe Trophy. If one of them has a big game tonight, it could sway the selectors.

Beliveau scored the first goal of the final game, assisted on the second, and won the Conn Smythe Trophy.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=650tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YJ8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4694,474069
Ted Blackman, Montreal Gazette, May 3, 1965, p.25:
Toe Blake: "But I'm really happy for these players. Especially for fellows like J.C. Tremblay, who proved he belongs with the great stars of this game."
Gump Worsley: "Sure, Bobby Hull has never scored on me. But don't ever forget the work Claude Provost put in to guard Hull. Just don't forget that."
Pierre Pilote: "And we didn't penetrate their defence, and when it was 1-0 J.C. Tremblay put his stick on the ice and made a real good stop on me after I shifted twice to get him out of position. He's played a great series for them. I've never seen him play so well."

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=650tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YJ8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=5137,481056
Dink Carroll, Montreal Gazette, May 3, 1965, p.26:
Jean Beliveau won the new Conn Smythe Trophy and he certainly deserved it. He scored, set up plays, checked persistently, and set the pace for his teammates. It was no accident that his linemates, Dick Duff and Bobby Rousseau, also enjoyed a good series.

The Hawks relied too much on Bobby Hull and it proved to be too big a job for Hull, brilliant player though he is. But it must be remarked that Claude Provost was outstanding in covering the Hawks star

...Provost could do it because he has the speed, the strength, and the stamina to stay with him, lift his stick and get a big enough piece of him to slow him down for a bit. Henri Richard is another who could skate with Hull for short stretches.

J.C. Tremblay came into his own in the playoffs. He is a master of picking the puck off an opposing player's stick and getting it out of his own end.

1966
Roger Crozier (winner), Jean Beliveau, J.C. Tremblay, Gilles Tremblay, Gump Worsley

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XYEuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rp8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6659,588916
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 4, 1965, p.17: Jean Claude Tremblay, playing the puck with magnetism in his own zone, led the Montreal defence corps in a brilliant effort. However, Terry Harper gave credit to the forwards for making the job easy.

Jean Beliveau played one of his greatest games while earning only one assist. "I guess it was one of my good games," said Jean. "But I was surprised to be picked as the first star when I didn't score. It's not often you play so well and don't get a goal."

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XoEuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rp8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4861,865142
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 5, 1965, p.17: Jean Beliveau, a hot candidate for the Conn Smythe Trophy which will be awarded after the championship game, has been strong both ways with a record of two goals and two assists in the final. Ralph Backstrom has been just as hot offensively while Henri Richard has been recovering old skating form. Dave Balon has been surprise performer on left wing with two important goals during the series.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=X4EuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rp8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4543,1193260
Associated Press, Montreal Gazette, May 6, 1966, p.33: In somewhat of a surprise, Detroit goalie Roger Crozier was named the Most Valuable Player in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Crozier was injured in the fifth game of the final series Sunday when Montreal's Bobby Rousseau crashed into him before the game was six minutes old. Crozier suffered a sprained knee and twisted ankle on his left leg.

He returned to action Tuesday and played the entire game Thursday night. He allowed the Canadiens 16 goals in the six games.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=X4EuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rp8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6394,1190159
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 6, 1966, p.33: Henri Richard: I didn't deserve to score such an important goal. Some of the other fellows like Jean Beliveau, Gilles Tremblay, or J.C should have had it for playing so well all through the series.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YIEuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rp8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=5160,1319722
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 7, 1966, p.8: The selection of Roger Crozier as Smythe Trophy winner caused surprise with some of the 100-odd hockey-writers who covered the series. Some felt that one of the Canadiens might win it, either Beliveau, Gilles Tremblay, J.C. or Worsley who made a game-saving stop on Gordie Howe late in the third period.

And if Big Jean or either of the Tremblays had scored the winner, they might have been chosen over the Detroit goalie since the balloting was reported close and held up until the overtime period.

1967
Dave Keon (winner), Terry Sawchuk, Jim Pappin, Pete Stemkowski, Bob Pulford, Marcel Pronovost, Tim Horton

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F0MjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HbkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7301,741599
Montreal Gazette, May 3, 1967, p.42: Duff was the only Hab to put a puck past Sawchuk, whose tremendous play in the semi-final and final rate the veteran goalie as a strong candidate for the Conn Smythe trophy. The winner will be announced this afternoon.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GEMjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HbkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6728,1004101
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 4, 1967, p.33: Jovial Jim Pappin wound up as the leading scorer and temperamental Terry Sawchuk snapped back from adversity to become the goaltending hero in Toronto's determined drive to the Stanley Cup.

However quiet man Dave Keon has been voted the most valuable player to his team in post-season play and neither Pappin, Sawchuk, nor the rest of the champion Maple Leafs should begrudge his selection.

While goals and goaling paid off in the long run of Toronto's 4-2 win over Chicago and Montreal in the semi-final and final playoffs, it was the Leafs sustained skating and checking which made the difference. No player did more in this phase of the game than the five-foot-nine, 163-pound Keon.

Besides pivoting his regular line against the oppositions top units, Keon turned in yeoman service as a penalty-killer and also played shifts of the power-play. He wound up with three goals and five assists, including a winner in the second semi-final game against the Black Hawks.

While Pappin, Sawchuk, Pete Stemkowski, Bob Pulford, defencemen Marcel Pronovost and Tim Horton had to be considered for their fine performances, Keon was chosen on the strength of his consistent work in all 12 games of the playoffs.

1968
Glenn Hall (winner), Gump Worsley, Jean Beliveau, Claude Provost, Jacques Laperriere, Terry Harper, Jacques Lemaire, Dickie Moore

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2eUiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TqAFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2529,3194340
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 13, 1968, p.26:
Unless there are changes in several ballots during the next two days, Glenn Hall of St. Louis is the 1968 winner of the Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable player to his team in the entire Stanley Cup playoffs.

In a change of policy from the first two years of presenting the trophy immediately after the deciding game, an announcement of the winner isn't expected until late today or Tuesday. However The Gazette has had indications that Hall won't be overtaken on the remaining ballots of the NHL governors, many of whom didn't even attend the final series.

Hall, whose tremendous netminding was the big factor in the Blues' earlier series triumphs over Philadelphia and Minnesota, was mainly responsible for keeping the Blues close in the final against Canadiens.

"It looks like Gump is getting the shaft because we went through the playoffs in only 13 games," said one of his team-mates bitterly. "But we couldn't have done it if he hadn't played so well, especially against Boston and Chicago. For that matter we've got about four other players who deserve it just as much as Glenn Hall."

Coach Toe Blake felt sure that Worsley would get the trophy.

"Who could have played better? After all we won the Cup so Gump should be the logical choice. Surely they're not going to give the trophy to a loser again like when Roger Crozier got it two years ago."

Jean Beliveau had been a prime candidate before an ankle injury put him out of the final series. His value to the Habs was shown by their struggles to beat the Blues without him.

Claude Provost, a two-way standout in the quarter and semi-final series; Jacques Laperriere and Terry Harper, who had been defensive standouts almost every playoff game; and young Jacques Lemaire who wound up with seven goals and six assists were other contenders with Canadiens.

Dickie Moore, the Blues' incredible veteran who wound up with 14 playoff points, also might have been considered.

1969
Serge Savard was awarded the Conn Smythe Trophy. The Montreal Gazette editions for May 1969 are not available in the Google Archives, so I was unable to find any articles that suggested more candidates.

1971
Ken Dryden (winner), Jacques Laperriere, Jacques Lemaire

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TJcuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kKEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1800,1299763
Pat Curran, Montreal Gazette, May 19, 1971, p.1:"The heroes were Dryden and Laperriere and Jacques Lemaire, but the name that repeated itself most often in the tumultuous, sweltering changing room was Henri Richard -- benched here in the fifth game and now back in the final for two goals, the tying and winning ones.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TJcuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kKEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1069,1383014
Associated Press, Montreal Gazette, May 19, 1971, p.17:
A surprise was unfolded only after the game when it was disclosed the defenceman Jacques Laperriere, who hardly missed a shift in the entire series, had been playing since the second game with a broken left forearm.

The injury had been taped between wrist and elbow.

But it's seriousness was not divulged although it became apparent the Canadiens were missing the lanky defenceman's booming slapshot that had proved so effective against Boston and Minnesota North Stars in the semi-final.

Although Richard's two goals were the difference for Montreal, he shared the hero's role with young Ken Dryden, the rookie goalie who captured the Conn Smythe Trophy as the Cup's Most Valuable Player.

overpass · Jun 7, 2017

Canadiens1958 said:
W
Also you have the deployment question as raised by MXD. 1969 against Boston and Bobby Orr, checking the HSP it is rather clear that Serge Savard was matched against Bobby Orr, his rival going back to junior days. Why not J.C. Tremblay?

Likewise against Bobby Hull, especially in Chicago? Faced the Hawks in 1961, 1962, 1965(finals), 1968, 1971(finals) playoffs. In Chicago during the five series the Canadiens were 3-12, outscored 31 to 43.
At the Forum the Canadiens were 13 and 3 against Chicago during the same five series.

Interestingly game 7 hilites of the 1971 Finals are available:

Chicago feed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBzm7QWEkI

HNC feed - with Danny Gallivan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UrQXgAEdUM

As the game ends, the two Canadiens defencemen on the ice protecting the lead are Harper and Laperriere.

Fair point. Deployment is certainly an important question and Tremblay very well may not have played the toughest minutes.

What about 1965 and 1966? Jacques Laperriere missed the 1965 finals and missed all of the 1966 playoffs. Tremblay was one of Montreal's top players in both playoff runs. Was he taking on more defensive responsibility?

Based on my post for Conn Smythe candidates of the 1960s, it appears that Tremblay's best playoffs were earlier, in 1965 and 1966, and Laperriere was more prominent in their later runs in 1968 and 1971.

Ultimately I agree with QPQ and TDMM that Chris Pronger and Scott Stevens are the top defenders remaining.

Canadiens1958 · Jun 7, 2017

1960s Montreal

overpass said:
Fair point. Deployment is certainly an important question and Tremblay very well may not have played the toughest minutes.

What about 1965 and 1966? Jacques Laperriere missed the 1965 finals and missed all of the 1966 playoffs. Tremblay was one of Montreal's top players in both playoff runs. Was he taking on more defensive responsibility?

Based on my post for Conn Smythe candidates of the 1960s, it appears that Tremblay's best playoffs were earlier, in 1965 and 1966, and Laperriere was more prominent in their later runs in 1968 and 1971.

Ultimately I agree with QPQ and TDMM that Chris Pronger and Scott Stevens are the top defenders remaining.

Second half of the 1960s Canadiens four SC championship teams were forward driven. From the regular forwards, only Ferguson and Larose did not get mentioned. Lemaire for a rookie, young player played an important role. Still four of the five defencemen - Laperriere, Savard, Harper and Tremblay also are praised, exception being Ted Harris and Worsley`s role is put in perspective.

Rather evident that in 1966 and 1968 the Smythe voting was split within the team and the out of town votes would reflect the success that certain players enjoyed against the opposition.

Some of the Smythe voting for centers also brings to mind the present situation with Sidney Crosby.

Blake`s comment about losers raised a smile.

Pronger and Stevens?

Perhaps but not sold. Still remember the 2010 Hawks and Byfuglien slowly wearing down Pronger`s front of the net presence. Granted few teams had players that big or with the willingness to confront.

Likewise Stevens. Fail to see the separation between Stevens and a Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Pierre Pilote or even a J.C. Tremblay. The O6 defencemen would be challenged for the slot every shift of every playoff game. Not talking the big forwards like Howe but the likes of Bobby Rousseau, Ken Wharram, Norm Ullman, Dave Keon.Stevens was conceded the slot.

Canadiens1958 · Jun 7, 2017

1965 Finals Game 7

Further to the post by overpass, it may be informative to see Game 7 of the 1965 Finals, Chicago at Montreal. Get a feel for the Smythe voting, Hulle playing against Provost and Richard, Pilote vs Tremblay, Hall vs Worsley and the physical nature of the game.

Canadiens score at 0:14. Watch for the response from Pilote and the check on Beliveau on an upcoming rush.

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPCPSv5dHCo

Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaMEIxNr-FI

Note the audio and video are not at sync at times.

BM67 · Jun 7, 2017

quoipourquoi said:
Not to get too tied up in intrapositional arguments, but how does everyone see the eligible goaltenders? I'm leaning towards Benedict, but I find myself waivering on Smith vs. Sawchuk. Smith's overtime performance seems to separate him from his three previously named teammates - and he may very well be in that Roy, Sakic, Richard, Giguere range of the absolute best past 60 minutes. Is there any eligible player who has that same edge in overtime?

Billy Smith's record in playoff OT games

Player|GP|MIN|W|L|GA|GAA|SOG|SV%|SO|SOG/60|MIN/GP
Smith T|20|1355:21|16|4|61|2.70|653|0.907|1|28.91|67:46
Smith H|8|557:22|7|1|25|2.69|257|0.903|1|27.67|69:40
Smith R|12|797:59|9|3|36|2.71|396|0.909|0|29.78|66:30

OT only

Player|GP|MIN|W|L|GA|GAA|SOG|SV%|SOG/60|MIN/GP
Smith T|20|155:21|16|4|4|1.54|64|0.938|24.72|7:46
Smith H|8|77:22|7|1|1|0.78|34|0.971|26.37|9:40
Smith R|12|77:59|9|3|3|2.31|30|0.900|23.08|6:30

Dennis Bonvie · Jun 7, 2017

MXD said:
That's probably not what you'd like to hear for an answer, but I prefer not to think about it. I mean, Smith looks reasonably close to Sawchuk and Parent (but in both cases there are reasonable close, and, in some ways, better, comparables who aren't eligible), and the first thing that comes to mind with Brodeur and Benedict is : "WHY".

(I'm not saying I have no part to do with any of these being available for voting)

My biggest gripe with Smith is that the teams he faced in the later rounds tended to be not really good, but that has absolutely nothing to do with him, and that, in this group of goaltenders, it doesn't hurt him, at all.

Though he beat the Rangers (rivals), Bruins (top team in regular season) and the soon to be dynasty Oilers in 1983 playoffs. And won the Smythe while doing it.

Dennis Bonvie · Jun 7, 2017

overpass said:
Fair point. Deployment is certainly an important question and Tremblay very well may not have played the toughest minutes.

What about 1965 and 1966? Jacques Laperriere missed the 1965 finals and missed all of the 1966 playoffs. Tremblay was one of Montreal's top players in both playoff runs. Was he taking on more defensive responsibility?

Based on my post for Conn Smythe candidates of the 1960s, it appears that Tremblay's best playoffs were earlier, in 1965 and 1966, and Laperriere was more prominent in their later runs in 1968 and 1971.

Ultimately I agree with QPQ and TDMM that Chris Pronger and Scott Stevens are the top defenders remaining.

That seems right.

MXD · Jun 7, 2017

Dennis Bonvie said:
Though he beat the Rangers (rivals), Bruins (top team in regular season) and the soon to be dynasty Oilers in 1983 playoffs. And won the Smythe while doing it.

Well... North Stars. Canucks. Weakest Habs team between 1948 and 1998. Goddawful Rangers team in 81. Nordiques in 82. ...

Dennis Bonvie · Jun 7, 2017

MXD said:
Well... North Stars. Canucks. Weakest Habs team between 1948 and 1998. Goddawful Rangers team in 81. Nordiques in 82. ...

Was that an issue for Potvin, Bossy or Trottier?

MXD · Jun 7, 2017

Dennis Bonvie said:
Was that an issue for Potvin, Bossy or Trottier?

There's a gap between what those three have done (and what Smith has done) in those circumstances.

Then again, I did say that Smith was looking good in that group of netminders.

quoipourquoi · Jun 8, 2017

Canadiens1958 said:
Perhaps but not sold. Still remember the 2010 Hawks and Byfuglien slowly wearing down Pronger`s front of the net presence. Granted few teams had players that big or with the willingness to confront.

The effect Chris Pronger had in breaking apart Chicago's top-line at the beginning of the series is perhaps being discounted here.

First 4 Games (2-2 Split)
Pronger: 0-3-3, +7
Toews: 0-1-1, -3
Kane: 1-2-3, -6
Byfuglien: 0-1-1, -3

I think people remember the speed game that bested Pronger in Game 5 from that series more than they remember Gagne's cumulative -8 and Richards' cumulative -7 because Pronger was so dominant in the rest of it and the focal point of the entire Final.

Daily Herald said:
Hey, even the Blackhawks top line of Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane and Dustin Byfuglien can have an off night, right?

That was certainly the case in Saturday's high-flying 6-5 Hawks victory in Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Finals where all three big guns were left off the scoresheet, other than their minus-3 rating.

...

"I think we just did a good job of denying them time and space," Flyers defenseman Chris Pronger said. "If they don't have the puck they can't make plays ... and for a lot of their shifts we played in their end, forced them to play defense and really tried to deny the puck to both Kane and Toews."

Daily Herald said:
Meanwhile, down the hall, the rumblings in the Philadelphia room were that the Flyers believe Pronger is now in the Blackhawks' heads.

...

And in his highly hyped and highly physical battle with the 6-4, 257-pound Byfuglien - who was unstoppable in Rounds 2 and 3 - the clear edge so far rests with the 35-year-old veteran.

...

Several Flyers have lauded the veteran's calming influence, and yesterday, Danny Briere even thanked Pronger for pulling his steal-the-puck stunt after Games 1 and 2, because the commotion it produced eased some of the pressure on the rest of the Flyers after Philly lost both games in Chicago.

San Diego Union-Tribune said:
He's also won the mental battle against the Blackhawks. Case in point, Game 3. Pronger poked and prodded Blackhawks forward Dustin Byfuglien in front of the Flyers net. Byfuglien finally retaliated - and was whistled for slashing.

...

If Pronger can help Philadelphia win its first title since 1975 he could be the Conn Smythe Trophy winner as the playoffs MVP.

Philly.com said:
Call it the Chris Pronger Factor. Because of Prongerâ€™s dominance in the Stanley Cup Finals, it appears Chicago will split up Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane, putting them on different lines Sunday and freeing one of them from the 6-foot-6, 220-pound defenseman.

Interesting note from the 2007 playoffs:

Battle of Cali said:
And despite the benefit of that extra power play time, his overall numbers show that Niedermayer has been on the ice for 22 goals-for and 25 goals-against (es: 14-11, pp: 8-2, pk: 0-12). Scott has played more minutes than anyone this postseason, but his special-teams results are somewhat shaky. He'd have to win this award based on his captaincy and endurance, I think.

Pronger, by the way? 28 goals-for, 14 goals-against (es: 16-7, pp: 10-2, pk: 2-5). It's a shame he's such a headhunter.

Niedermayer had 101 minutes on the penalty kill (12 GA) to Pronger's 85 minutes (5 GA), but that is still quite a gap that the Ducks allowed 3.5 goals-per-60 with Pronger on the penalty kill and 7.1 goals-per-60 with Niedermayer. More than that, Pronger had points on both of Anaheim's SHGs, so he almost off-set the 5 GA they allowed while he was killing penalties.

Niedermayer won the Conn Smythe, but Pronger was the best player in both the 2006 and 2007 playoffs - in addition to his great 2010 playoff where one could say the same thing.

TheDevilMadeMe · Jun 8, 2017

Kyle McMahon said:
Howie Morenz. MXD, why are you so down on Morenz? In my estimation, this is a player where the modest counting stats betray reality. The primary cog on the early Canadiens championship teams, winning 3 Stanley Cups + one NHL championship. This era was a bit of a hodge-podge in terms of player movement, rule changes, and no one team able to assert post-season dominance consistently. Similar to the post-2005 era in a lot of ways. The parallels between Morenz and Crosby (just voted onto the list) are plentiful in number.

The thing is, Crosby is statistically the best playoff scorer of his generation, while I don't know if Morenz really stood out that much.

You're right that it was very rare for players to consistently put up playoff numbers when Morenz played, but depending on what you count as Morenz's generation, it did happen - off the top of my head, Frank Foyston, Cy Denneny, and Marty Barry were all consistently strong playoff scorers. Now Denneny was basically the designated cherrypicker/finisher of the Ottawa juggernaut, but Foyston and Barry showed that it wasn't impossible to put up consistently strong numbers in more normal situations.

FWIW, the HHOF/SIHR project gave Howie Morenz the retroactive Conn Smythe in 1923-24. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1990741

Canadiens1958 · Jun 8, 2017

Not So.

quoipourquoi said:
The effect Chris Pronger had in breaking apart Chicago's top-line at the beginning of the series is perhaps being discounted here.

First 4 Games (2-2 Split)
Pronger: 0-3-3, +7
Toews: 0-1-1, -3
Kane: 1-2-3, -6
Byfuglien: 0-1-1, -3

I think people remember the speed game that bested Pronger in Game 5 from that series more than they remember Gagne's cumulative -8 and Richards' cumulative -7 because Pronger was so dominant in the rest of it and the focal point of the entire Final.

Interesting note from the 2007 playoffs:

Niedermayer had 101 minutes on the penalty kill (12 GA) to Pronger's 85 minutes (5 GA), but that is still quite a gap that the Ducks allowed 3.5 goals-per-60 with Pronger on the penalty kill and 7.1 goals-per-60 with Niedermayer. More than that, Pronger had points on both of Anaheim's SHGs, so he almost off-set the 5 GA they allowed while he was killing penalties.

Niedermayer won the Conn Smythe, but Pronger was the best player in both the 2006 and 2007 playoffs - in addition to his great 2010 playoff where one could say the same thing.

Misconception that a series reduces to the first game or few games. Pronger prevailed at times because teams would test his will for a few shifts, maybe a game. 2010 Chicago never let-up. Pronger and the Flyers wilted.

Within two seasons after 2010 Pronger was out of the game for good. The giant was exposed.

Canadiens1958 · Jun 8, 2017

Differences

TheDevilMadeMe said:
The thing is, Crosby is statistically the best playoff scorer of his generation, while I don't know if Morenz really stood out that much.

You're right that it was very rare for players to consistently put up playoff numbers when Morenz played, but depending on what you count as Morenz's generation, it did happen - off the top of my head, Frank Foyston, Cy Denneny, and Marty Barry were all consistently strong playoff scorers. Now Denneny was basically the designated cherrypicker/finisher of the Ottawa juggernaut, but Foyston and Barry showed that it wasn't impossible to put up consistently strong numbers in more normal situations.

FWIW, the HHOF/SIHR project gave Howie Morenz the retroactive Conn Smythe in 1923-24. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1990741

Basically trying to navigate between the NHL and the two western leagues - different rules, different playoff schedules with player movement similar to free agency.

Post consolidation, you still have the numerous rule changes thru the intro of the Red Line, the original NHL Salary Cap introduced in the fall of 1933 which generated an unusual amount of player movement, continued schedule issues.

The comparable Morenz to Crosby is interesting since both had to bring a complete game at playoff time.

Frank Boucher is interesting in that his career path reflects the various elements listed above.

Canadiens1958 · Jun 8, 2017

Billy Smith

MXD;133125491[B said:
]There's a gap between what those three have done (and what Smith has done) in those circumstances.[/B]

Then again, I did say that Smith was looking good in that group of netminders.

And what exactly is the gap?

Like Potvin, Trottier and Bossy, Smith had to prepare for the exact same opponents for the potential of a seven game series. Identical circumstances. Furthermore, Only Potvin and Smith had to prepare for all possible match-ups against each team. Trottier and Bossy faced a very limited selection of match-ups versus any specific team.

So what is this gap you seem to have discovered.

Billy Smith is in a group of goalies - Broda, Worsley, to a degree Bower who in the second half of their careers figured out how to approach and manage playoff hockey - seven game series, within the context of their team situation - specific centers and defencemen versus the opposition. Obviously over the life of a 2 to 4 series playoff season, the opposition varies but the complexity and time required to prepare for and manage each game / series does not change.

Billy Smith should be recognized for his superior ability to do this, an ability that few playoff goalies had to the same extent. Grant Fuhr`s mistakes or bad games came with erasers for the most part.

Round 2, Vote 7 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

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