Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Wingers) WARNING POST #435

[tarheelhockey]

Rather interesting observation. Syd Howe, Bill Cowley and Jack McGill were high school teammates in Ottawa during the second half of the 1920s.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=G5AuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QpkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6683,799160

McGill was the oldest, November 1910. Howe - September 1911 and Cowley June 1912, were one school year younger. Howe made the NHL in 1929-30 as an 18 year old.

A bit of ironic trivia -- in 1942, Cowley collided with an opponent and missed the second half of the season with a broken jaw. This injury deprived him of a chance to defend his scoring title and potentially to string together 3 consecutive assist titles.

The opponent that collided with him? His high school buddy Syd Howe.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Any comments on that? Makes the whole idea go from a theoretical assumption to something that actually happened.

yeah, it was the season Conacher was injured. Showed Jackson could still finish as high as 2nd in NHL scoring without an effective Conacher. Second best season of Jackson's career, and he did it without Conacher even close to 100%. Shows me that his stats were not very reliant on his linemates.

 

[MXD]

yeah, it was the season Conacher was injured. Showed Jackson could still finish as high as 2nd in NHL scoring without an effective Conacher. Second best season of Jackson's career, and he did it without Conacher even close to 100%. Shows me that his stats were not very reliant on his linemates.

... Conacher 's "off year" had a huge impact on Primeau AND on the Leafs total offensive output as a whole. But not on Jackson.

(Just adding to your post, actually)

 

[Hardyvan123]

What's even the point about the 1994 Hart trophy?
Three vote ballot with like 7 players better than Bure, and HV is complaining that he finsihed 12th but should have finished Top 10 or what?

Why does that matter?

Well some people here do trophy count a bit, or at least it comes up in arguments sounding that way, ie Bure was never a Hart guy he only finished 12th, and some context was provided.

Sorry if that context sounded like complaining but it's better to look at any arguments, even those one doesn't agree with as arguments.

Calling them complaints isn't helpful to the discussion.

Nor was the inference up thread about "big time Canucks fans" pushing for him.

I have no idea were JA is from or if he is even a Canucks fan, we do know that he has strong views on Bure but many counterarguments of his points seem to not be focused on the argument presented, all of which is cited BTW.

As for Iggy being the better play maker than Bure, sure the assists look like it but there are more than enough clips of Bure to see his passing skills as well right?

The ironic thing is that we will probably be having this discussion again next round but at least I'm doing my part he was #1 for me this round based on his resume.

 

[Hardyvan123]

No, the reality is that you are claiming that media bias towards Eastern time zone players affected Pavel Bure's vote totals in 1994 when you wouldn't have voted for any West coast players either. So are we to conclude that you are biased against West coast players too? Because apparently your voting record is the only evidence necessary to throw around accusations of bias.

the eastern voting bias isn't something I just made up, it's something that came up a lot in Vancouver hockey circles in the 90's and even when Hank won his Hart, it was acknowledged by some hockey people (in Vancouver) here in that campaign probably guilted a few people in voting differently but that hart is another matter for another day.

I mean, that is all you're going by, right? Just the voting record. You didn't actually have any proof when you tried to draw a parallel between these "problematic" results and Firsov winning the MVP... which was, what, decided by vague political reasons?

No none of the voters came out and said they go to sleep and jsut watch the highlights of West coast games and watch a lot more east coast games live, so if they didn't say it didn't happen right?

As for the Firsov thing I never brought up vague political reasons it was brought up by 2 other posters then I responded to it (although that was never the main point of my questioning and still isn't).

I was very clear (I must have posted about it close to 150 times as noted up thread so just in case you missed it, it was the scoring differences not politics that I had a question with) that the voting results were "wacky" or questionable due to the huge difference in scoring rates, especially in that 71 season.

But instead of any talk about the huge difference in numbers some peripheral discussion on politics and NHL to Russia assists were brought up when neither situation was directly involved in how Firsov compared to his Russian and other international competition under the same rules.

 

[unknown33]

Well some people here do trophy count a bit, or at least it comes up in arguments sounding that way, ie Bure was never a Hart guy he only finished 12th, and some context was provided.

Ok, I agree with that part.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Voting Ends at 9pm EST today!

*Remember to send a list of 10 names.

 

[MXD]

Voting Ends at 9pm EST today!

*Remember to send a list of 10 names.

Going well so far ?

 

[unknown33]

yeah, it was the season Conacher was injured. Showed Jackson could still finish as high as 2nd in NHL scoring without an effective Conacher. Second best season of Jackson's career, and he did it without Conacher even close to 100%. Shows me that his stats were not very reliant on his linemates.

... Conacher 's "off year" had a huge impact on Primeau AND on the Leafs total offensive output as a whole. But not on Jackson.

(Just adding to your post, actually)

That's not true.
His assist per game went from ~0.5 in the two bordering seasons to 0.35

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's not true.
His assist per game went from ~0.5 in the two bordering seasons to 0.35

We were talking about his point totals - the thing that matters most when talking about offensive production. Being able to put up a high number of goals + assists combined

And Jackson was second in overall NHL scoring the season Conacher didn't do much

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Going well so far ?

15 votes in as of now. If you've sent your vote in you should've received a confirmation. If you have not, please send again and make a post in this thread saying so.

 

[unknown33]

We were talking about his point totals - the thing that matters most when talking about offensive production. Being able to put up a high number of goals + assists combined

No, I was talking about whether his point output was influnced by his teammates and it was in that particular season (one of the rare instances where he DID NOT miss games might have something to do with still finishing 2nd). Not if he was/was not a capable player without Conacher.

Points Per Game
1931-32 NHL 1.10 (1)
1932-33 NHL 0.92 (2)
1933-34 NHL 1.00 (3)
1934-35 NHL 1.05 (2)

Assists Per Game
1931-32 NHL 0.52 (3)
1932-33 NHL 0.35 (18)
1933-34 NHL 0.47 (5)
1934-35 NHL 0.52 (8)

 

[quoipourquoi]

Well some people here do trophy count a bit, or at least it comes up in arguments sounding that way, ie Bure was never a Hart guy he only finished 12th, and some context was provided.

But he wasn't a "Hart guy" in 1994. Why are you trying to shoehorn him into the 1994 Hart discussion that even you agree he shouldn't have been on a 5-3-1 ballot? The only thing problematic with the Hart votes is that you are taking the placement Bure had among the group of 8th-15th best players who also didn't deserve votes as some sort of slight against him and Vancouver and West Coast players, and you're trying to convince us that he was being underrated because Roenick's negligible amount of votes ended up being higher than Bure's negligle amount of votes. Neither of them deserved votes on a 5-3-1. No one gives a **** if Bure finished 8th or 12th because he and several others shouldn't have placed AT ALL.

A 5-3-1 becomes worthless when trying to rank anything after the top-three players. I don't know how this has escaped you, JetsAlternate, and the edler. This would be like a Detroit poster getting upset that Sylvain Cote (0-1-0) and Frantisek Musil (0-1-0) finished ahead of Nicklas Lidstrom (0-0-1) in the All-Star vote. It doesn't matter, because you're looking at maybe three people's opinions.

If you tried to frame the argument around Bure's 12th place being irrelevant because vote totals are screwy and he was probably the 8th best player in the league (THN thought so), we would have been on board with your argument.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No, I was talking about whether his point output was influnced by his teammates and it was in that particular season (one of the rare instances where he DID NOT miss games might have something to do with still finishing 2nd). Not if he was/was not a capable player without Conacher.

Points Per Game
1931-32 NHL 1.10 (1)
1932-33 NHL 0.92 (2)
1933-34 NHL 1.00 (3)
1934-35 NHL 1.05 (2)

Assists Per Game
1931-32 NHL 0.52 (3)
1932-33 NHL 0.35 (18)
1933-34 NHL 0.47 (5)
1934-35 NHL 0.52 (8)

Fact: Busher Jackson was 2nd in NHL scoring in 1932-33, well ahead of any teammates

You are ignoring goal scoring in 1932-33. So Jackson scores more goals and has fewer assists the year his linemate isn't effective. That's normal (see Selanne in 1997-98 just off the top of my head).

 

[quoipourquoi]

He should have been 5th or 6th, at least. He was on pace for 118 points, but yeah he wasn't that good.

He finished 7th in points-per-game in a year where two goaltenders and two defensemen had some of the best seasons from the decade.

So who are you bumping from the 5-3-1 ballot? Sergei Fedorov? Ray Bourque, whose 1.26 points-per-game was 12th in the league (I'm pretty sure he played more defense than Bure too)? Dominik Hasek and his .930? Doug Gilmour, who scored more points than Bure while finishing 2nd in Selke voting? John Vanbiesbrouck and his .924 for an expansion team? Scott Stevens, who was on the ice for only 62 ESGA in 83 GP while scoring a career-high 78 points? Wayne Gretzky, who won the Art Ross trophy by 10 points and had 23 more points than Bure?

Which five of those seven players was Pavel Bure, the 7th best point-per-game player, good enough to knock off of a 5-3-1 ballot? I'd love to hear it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

But he wasn't a "Hart guy" in 1994. Why are you trying to shoehorn him into the 1994 Hart discussion that even you agree he shouldn't have been on a 5-3-1 ballot? The only thing problematic with the Hart votes is that you are taking the placement Bure had among the group of 8th-15th best players who also didn't deserve votes as some sort of slight against him and Vancouver and West Coast players, and you're trying to convince us that he was being underrated because Roenick's negligible amount of votes ended up being higher than Bure's negligle amount of votes. Neither of them deserved votes on a 5-3-1. No one gives a **** if Bure finished 8th or 12th because he and several others shouldn't have placed AT ALL.

A 5-3-1 becomes worthless when trying to rank anything after the top-three players. I don't know how this has escaped you, JetsAlternate, and the edler. This would be like a Detroit poster getting upset that Sylvain Cote (0-1-0) and Frantisek Musil (0-1-0) finished ahead of Nicklas Lidstrom (0-0-1) in the All-Star vote. It doesn't matter, because you're looking at maybe three people's opinions.

If you tried to frame the argument around Bure's 12th place being irrelevant because vote totals are screwy and he was probably the 8th best player in the league (THN thought so), we would have been on board with your argument.

Look 2 things here

A) I always look at awards voting to see if they had it right and to see who was in the mix, it's clear Feds was deserving of the Hart and everyone else was step below. The fact of the matter is that you or I or anyone with any hockey sense could build a case for Stevens, Bourque or indeed Bure for that year and that's worth something.

B) Is the media bias totally non existent to you?

If so there is a lot of media here in Vancouver, and those guys will do just about anything to not criticize any other sports media guys, who believe that there was a bias going on, as did the Canucks both then and later in Sedins Hart year.

That's why in part that I do part A, in that we can take all the information we have to come to our own conclusions.

 

[unknown33]

Fact: Busher Jackson was 2nd in NHL scoring in 1932-33, well ahead of any teammates

Never did I claim otherwise.
Another Fact: Busher Jackson assists were influnced by his teammates.

You are ignoring goal scoring in 1932-33.

I didn't. You can do the math yourself by the two values given and notice it's insignificant.

Goals Per Game
1931-32 NHL 0.58 (3)
1932-33 NHL 0.56 (2)
1933-34 NHL 0.53 (3)
1934-35 NHL 0.52 (2)

 

[MXD]

Never did I claim otherwise.
Another Fact: Busher Jackson assists were influnced by his teammates.

I didn't. You can do the math yourself by the two values given and notice it's insignificant.

Goals Per Game
1931-32 NHL 0.58 (3)
1932-33 NHL 0.56 (2)
1933-34 NHL 0.53 (3)
1934-35 NHL 0.52 (2)

I think you're right : Conacher off year had an impact on Jackson. Its not THAT big, and certainly smaller than the impact on Primeau. But there appears to have been some kind of effect.

But there's another elephant in the room, and that is that Conacher's off year appears to have had a similar impact on scoring as a whole in the league (!) than it did on Jackson himself.

Do I regret my sorta low-ish ranking of Conacher now ? Yes, I do.

 

[unknown33]

But there's another elephant in the room, and that is that Conacher's off year appears to have had a similar impact on scoring as a whole in the league (!) than it did on Jackson himself.

That's right, are there any other factors that season that might contribute to this?

 

[sr edler]

So who are you bumping from the 5-3-1 ballot?

I didn't say he should have been top three did I? I only said it's silly to point out he was 12th when he's behind guys like Graves, Roenick and Richter who didn't have better seasons.

He also had that nice 16 game point streak in the following playoffs.

On NHL goalies!

 

[seventieslord]

What do you make of the Fran Huck sample over 4 tournaments and 30 games each?

well, there's what Batis said, and then that single player comparison isn't really better than a meta-analysis either.

Maybe he was only a 15% better playmaker than Fran Huck, a decent short time NHL/WHA player. Remember, I'm the one who pointed out that Morris Mott, an opponent of Firsov's, said he could have played in the NHL, maybe not starred though.

I don't base my whole opinion on Firsov on that quote - it gets weighed in with everything else. But as I've said, I'm not as gung-ho on him as a few others. I do, however, think you've been unreasonable in the way you've tried to pick at him, for reasons many others have already outlined and rebuked.

 

[seventieslord]

A bit of ironic trivia -- in 1942, Cowley collided with an opponent and missed the second half of the season with a broken jaw. This injury deprived him of a chance to defend his scoring title and potentially to string together 3 consecutive assist titles.

The opponent that collided with him? His high school buddy Syd Howe.

I've read it was a collison, and I've also read it was a clean, punishing check. Not sure what to think of it.

 

[MXD]

That's right, are there any other factors that season that might contribute to this?

To be honest, I dont know.

There's two outcomes to this :

First, a change, whether its in the rules, the league configuration or..whatever else, impacted scoring levels. In which case, Jackson seeing a smallish drop in production is sufficiently explained.

Second, Conacher was so good that his off-year had an impact on the league scoring totals. Now, if his teammate sees a drop in production (mostly, assists) which isn't that significant, and actually less severe than the Leafs production and similar to the league production...

Can we just agree that Conacher big years were more outliers than we thought at first ?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To be honest, I dont know.

There's two outcomes to this :

First, a change, whether its in the rules, the league configuration or..whatever else, impacted scoring levels. In which case, Jackson seeing a smallish drop in production is sufficiently explained.

Second, Conacher was so good that his off-year had an impact on the league scoring totals. Now, if his teammate sees a drop in production (mostly, assists) which isn't that significant, and actually less severe than the Leafs production and similar to the league production...

Can we just agree that Conacher big years were more outliers than we thought at first ?

My best guess is that the constant changes to the rules in the 1930s is the biggest reason for season by season scoring fluctuations, though I can't point to any specific rule that would affect that particular season

 

[Theokritos]

As for the Firsov thing I never brought up vague political reasons it was brought up by 2 other posters then I responded to it

How about the following exchange?

Firsov being voted best player is not that impressive because others (who got fewer votes) scored more goals?

Your reply:

Politics would never come into anything going on in Russia right?

Which prompted the following response:

One could just as easily say that everything in the USA is politicized. So what? Does that mean Hart voting is rigged?

This just seems like it falls back on old stereotypes, unless you have actual evidence that MVP votes were politicized.

Your reply:

Do I really need "evidence" to ask an obvious question here since we, or at least I don't have any stats on assists for the time periods in question.
...
Look I answered without even going into the obvious political and social differences in the Russian hockey circles of Firsovs day and the NHL which to some extent was a freer operation, at least in terms of voting for awards right?

i'm sorry but if one doesn't understand the differences in how voting in the 2 different arenas could be influenced then a positron lesson is in order.

So much for that.

But instead of any talk about the huge difference in numbers some peripheral discussion on...NHL to Russia assists were brought up when neither situation was directly involved in how Firsov compared to his Russian and other international competition under the same rules.

The assists issue isn't peripheral as pointed out before:

But take away secondary assists for example and see what it does to the stats of Henrik Sedin (or any other playmaker with a high ratio of secondary assists) compared directly with his NHL competition: his scoring rank drops like a stone.

The "same rules" argument has been addressed. Secondary assists awarded (same rules for everybody): Henrik Sedin top. Secondary assists not awarded (same rules for everybody): Henrik Sedin drops significantly.