Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 10 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 10 points, 2nd place votes worth 9 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 7 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Sunday, January 10th 2016. You may PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe starting on Saturday, January 9th.

Vote 7 will be for places 21 through 25 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Veniamin Aleksandrov
Vitaly Davydov
Vladimír Dzurilla
Ivan Hlinka
Sergey Kapustin
Peter Lindmark
Vladimir Lutchenko
Josef Maleček
Aleksandr Ragulin
Vladimir Shadrin
Nikolay Sologubov
Lennart Svedberg

Note that we are now voting for the top 10, rather than just top 8, as we aim to add 5 players per round

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Some preliminary thoughts:

• Hlinka looks awfully good this round (I had him top 5 last round though).
• Dzurilla and Lindmark are probably the next 2 goalies we should add, but is it time yet?
• Davydov seems a tier below the Lutchenko/Ragulin/Sologubov/Svedberg group.
• Kapustin is probably the next "golden era" Soviet to go after Balderis, but I think he's a clear step down from Balderis and can probably wait a round or so, even though I do think Balderis could have gone earlier.
• Too early for Shadrin - I think he's clearly behind Kapustin even.
• Still not sold on Malecek going in our top 30. Does anyone have a record of how many goals he actually scored against legitimate competition (Canada, USA, Great Britain?) I really don't care how much he scored against non-competitive teams.

I'm not going to have many forwards in my top 5 this round, I don't think. Definitely Hlinka, maybe Alexandrov, but I think it's time to clear some of the backlog of defensemen (Lutchenko/Ragulin/Sologubov/Svedberg all have a shot at my top 5). Plus does one of the 2 goalies stand out from the other?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships 1954-1991

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

****Note that I am now ordering the players roughly chronologically****\\

Goaltenders

Vladimir Dzurilla

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1965)
• All Star Goaltender (1965, 1969)

Jiri Kralik (CSSR) (included for comparison)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1982, 1985)
• All Star Goaltender (1982, 1985)

Peter Lindmark (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1981, 1986)
• All Star Goaltender (1981, 1986)

Defensemen

Nikolai Sologubov

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Alexander Ragulin

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Vitaly Davydov

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1967)

Lennart Svedberg

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Vladimir Lutchenko was not named Best defenseman or an All Star at any WHC, though he's the only one available regularly overshadowed by his own team teammate (Vasiliev).

Forwards

Jozef Malecek retired long before any of these awards were handed out.

Venjamin Alexandrov

• All Star Forward (1966, 1967)

Ivan Hlinka

• All Star Forward (1978)

Sergei Kapustin (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1978, 1981)

Vladimir Shadrin has no awards at the WHCs, though he did lead the 1976 Olympics in scoring (tied with Kharlamov, Maltsev, Shalimov, and Kuhnhackl).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Soviet All-Star nods

With lots of Soviet players available this round, I thought it might be helpful to look at the Soviet All-Star teams:

Note that the Soviet league All-Star teams began in 1958, towards the end of Sologubov's prime

All Star Defensemen

Nikolay Sologubov (1959) - not in 1958. Also retro AS nods in 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956 and 1957.
Alexander Ragulin (1961, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972)
Vitaly Davydov (1962, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970)
Vladimir Lutchenko (1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Lutchenko is the only one of them not to get international recognition (playing in the toughest era though), but I would say his domestic All-Star record is probably the most impressive of all of them - 7 straight years against fairly good competition.

All Star Forwards

Veniamin Aleksandrov (1966, 1968)
Vladimir Shadrin - never a domestic All-Star
Sergei Kapustin (1981)

I'm a little surprised to see how weak Aleksandrov's All-Star record is, considering the relatively weaker competition he faced. Shadrin competed against Petrov and Malstev at C, and Kapustin competed against all those great wingers.

 

[Theokritos]

• Davydov seems a tier below the Lutchenko/Ragulin/Sologubov/Svedberg group.

I agree he seems a tier below Sologubov and Ragulin, but Lutchenko? Soviet All-star nods: Lutchenko 7, Davydov 6. WHC recognition: Davydov has a "best defenceman" award (1967), Lutchenko doesn't have any hardware (best All-star voting result we're aware of: 3rd [tied] in 1972). Soviet Player of the Year voting finishes of Davydov in his All-star seasons (only 3 of his 6 are covered): 6th, 8th and 10th. Voting finishes of Lutchenko in his All-star seasons: 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 12th, 2x no votes.

Note that the Soviet league All-Star teams began in 1958, towards the end of Sologubov's prime

All Star Defensemen

Nikolay Sologubov (1959) - not in 1958

For the record, Sologubov also has retro-AS nods for 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956 and 1957.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree he seems a tier below Sologubov and Ragulin, but Lutchenko? Soviet All-star nods: Lutchenko 7, Davydov 6. WHC recognition: Davydov has a "best defenceman" award (1967), Lutchenko doesn't have any hardware (best All-star voting result we're aware of: 3rd [tied] in 1972). Soviet Player of the Year voting finishes of Davydov in his All-star seasons (only 3 of his 6 are covered): 6th, 8th and 10th. Voting finishes of Lutchenko in his All-star seasons: 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 12th, 2x no votes.

Given the fact that anyone can have a single good tournament, getting recognized for 1 single tournament is no better than getting recognized for 0, in my opinion. It's only when a guy was good enough to rack up awards in multiple tournaments, that it is meaningful IMO.

Lutchenko played in more competitive era I think - the quality of European hockey in the 1970s was likely a step up from the 1960s.

Also, the fact that all his domestic nods were consecutive is meaningful to me - he was that much better than every contemporary Soviet dman not named Vasiliev.

For the record, Sologubov also has retro-AS nods for 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956 and 1957.

Yeah, I knew about these; should probably add them to the post.

 

[MadArcand]

So Dzurilla is supposed to be the best non-NHL Slovak player? That's just silly.

 

[Theokritos]

So Dzurilla is supposed to be the best non-NHL Slovak player? That's just silly.

Do you think he's up for voting too early relative to the other players who are eligible now or is it just that someone you think should be up too is missing?

 

[seventieslord]

So Dzurilla is supposed to be the best non-NHL Slovak player? That's just silly.

We're listening...

 

[Canadiens1958]

1967

I agree he seems a tier below Sologubov and Ragulin, but Lutchenko? Soviet All-star nods: Lutchenko 7, Davydov 6. WHC recognition: Davydov has a "best defenceman" award (1967), Lutchenko doesn't have any hardware (best All-star voting result we're aware of: 3rd [tied] in 1972). Soviet Player of the Year voting finishes of Davydov in his All-star seasons (only 3 of his 6 are covered): 6th, 8th and 10th. Voting finishes of Lutchenko in his All-star seasons: 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 12th, 2x no votes.



For the record, Sologubov also has retro-AS nods for 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956 and 1957.

1967 "Best Defenceman". True that Davydov won the award only once, but he was chosen ahead of Carl Brewer. Definitely worth considering after additional review, research and comment.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nikolai Puchkov

Do you think he's up for voting too early relative to the other players who are eligible now or is it just that someone you think should be up too is missing?

Dzurilla was never clearly a number one on the Czechoslovakian National. Internationally he probably defined the ideal stop gap or back-up goalie.

Nikolai Puchkov had a very interesting career. Basically learned the position on his own. Played against Canadian and American goalies that were or became NHL goalies or passed on careers.

His role and performance during the first Soviet Tour of Canada in 1957 is very interesting but long forgotten. Will detail as time permits.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nikolai Sologubov.

Three time winner of the Directorate "Best Defenseman, including two Olympics 1956 and 1960. Twice beaten by teammate Ivan Tregubov(who is ignored so far)
Arguably the template for European defencemen from 1954 to 1969 when the rules changed.

To date no argument or explanation has been presented to explain the Soviets leading defensive play amongst European nations from the era in question. Ragulin, Davydov, Lutchenko were far from templates. Leading Czech had elements of Sologubov's game as did the later Swedes

 

[DN28]

Well, this is going to be an easier voting this time for me. Hlinka is sure number one for me. Then probably Ragulin-Sologubov duo as next.

Glad to finally see my two favourites. Kapustin is very underrated IMO and I also expected Dzurilla to come sooner.

EDIT: And I´m surprised to see Lindmark at the same time as Dzurilla. He belongs more closer to Kralik. Granted, I don´t know Lindmark as much...

 

[DN28]

So Dzurilla is supposed to be the best non-NHL Slovak player? That's just silly.

Who else? Golonka? Marian Stastny? No, I think Dzurilla wasn´t that much worse than Holecek if we take full career into account.

EDIT: By "that much worse" I mean that Dzurilla shouldn´t come more than 20-25 places below Holecek.

 

[MadArcand]

Who else? Golonka? Marian Stastny? No, I think Dzurilla wasn´t that much worse than Holecek if we take full career into account.

EDIT: By "that much worse" I mean that Dzurilla shouldn´t come more than 20-25 places below Holecek.

Liba. And Golonka is quite arguable as well.

It's perhaps not too early for Dzurilla, but for a goalie to be the top Slovak player is... wrong.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, this is going to be an easier voting this time for me. Hlinka is sure number one for me. Then probably Ragulin-Sologubov duo as next.

Glad to finally see my two favourites. Kapustin is very underrated IMO and I also expected Dzurilla to come sooner.

EDIT: And I´m surprised to see Lindmark at the same time as Dzurilla. He belongs more closer to Kralik. Granted, that I don´t know Lindmark as much...

I had Lindmark over both Dzurilla and Kralik on my initial list. Lindmark destroys Kralik in longevity, and I think he was perhaps more consistent than Dzurilla. Starting goalie for team Sweden for more than a decade, right? Won gold at the WHCs in 1987 and 1991, Sweden's first two wins since 1962, the 1987 win over a still excellent Soviet team.

Lindmark profile: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=62505317&postcount=238
Kralik profile: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=62278205&postcount=218 (for comparison sake).

Plus... it seems like we are really light on Swedes

 

[Canadiens1958]

Lindmark

I had Lindmark over both Dzurilla and Kralik on my initial list. Lindmark destroys Kralik in longevity, and I think he was perhaps more consistent than Dzurilla. Starting goalie for team Sweden for more than a decade, right? Won gold at the WHCs in 1987 and 1991, Sweden's first two wins since 1962, the 1987 win over a still excellent Soviet team.

Lindmark profile: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=62505317&postcount=238
Kralik profile: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=62278205&postcount=218 (for comparison sake).

Contrasted with a SV% averaging out to app .885 in the Canada Cups Lindmark participated in - 1981, 1984 and 1987. Far from the best in Best on Best play.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Contrasted with a SV% averaging out to app .885 in the Canada Cups Lindmark participated in - 1981, 1984 and 1987. Far from the best in Best on Best play.

That's the 1980s and he faced USSR and Canada All-Star teams. Is that supposed to be a bad save percentage? I doubt Fuhr's was any better.

Sweden won Silver in the 1984 Canada Cup and lost in the semifinals in 1987.

 

[VMBM]

Glad to see Kapustin available; an excellent skater and sharpshooter, and his international record is superior than that of some forwards who have already gotten on the list like Novy and Balderis. Was terrific already in his first WHC as a 21-year old in 1974. Played in two legendary Team USSR 2nd lines; Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis (the more famous one, CSKA & ntl team) and Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov (imo the better one, Spartak & ntl team). His SPOTY record isn't overly great, was he maybe considered a little too 'one-dimensional' (goal-scorer) by the Soviets themselves, I don't know? I like the fact that despite missing much of the 1979-80 season (injured) he came back very strongly in his late 20s in 1981-82. Was even a top 5 scorer domestically as late as 1985-86.

Alexandrov, Hlinka, Sologubov, Ragulin, Malecek and Kapustin are the definitive top guys for me this time. Then Svedberg, Davydov, Lutchenko, and the bottom three are Shadrin, Lindmark and Dzurilla. What is Lindmark's case over e.g. Ulf Sterner? Was Dzurilla much better than even e.g. Konovalenko? How is Shadrin's international or domestic record more impressive than e.g. Vladimir Vikulov's?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Glad to see Kapustin available; an excellent skater and sharpshooter, and his international record is superior than that of some forwards who have already gotten on the list like Novy and Balderis. Was terrific already in his first WHC as a 21-year old in 1974. Played in two legendary Team USSR 2nd lines; Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis (the more famous one, CSKA & ntl team) and Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov (imo the better one, Spartak & ntl team). His SPOTY record isn't overly great, was he maybe considered a little too 'one-dimensional' (goal-scorer) by the Soviets themselves, I don't know? I like the fact that despite missing much of the 1979-80 season (injured) he came back very strongly in his late 20s in 1981-82. Was even a top 5 scorer domestically as late as 1985-86.

Alexandrov, Hlinka, Sologubov, Ragulin, Malecek and Kapustin are the definitive top guys for me this time. Then Svedberg, Davydov, Lutchenko, and the bottom three are Shadrin, Lindmark and Dzurilla. What is Lindmark's case over e.g. Ulf Sterner? Was Dzurilla much better than even e.g. Konovalenko? How is Shadrin's international or domestic record more impressive than e.g. Vladimir Vikulov's?

ATD bio on Kapustin: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=62278177&postcount=217

You're right that his international record is very good:

These are the Soviet scoring leaders in the World Championships over the period that Kapustin skated with the 70's era Soviet team (1974 - 1979):

Player|Goals|Assists|Points|Games|Points-per-game
Boris Mikhailov|47|40|87|57|1.53
Valeri Kharlamov|39|40|79|57|1.39
Vladimir Petrov|27|42|69|46|1.5
Sergei Kapustin |44|18|62|53|1.17
Aleksandr Maltsev|23|30|53|43|1.23
Aleksandr Yakushev|31|17|48|40|1.2
Helmut Balderis|24|21|45|37|1.22
Vladimir Shadrin|19|21|40|39|1.03
Viktor Zhluktov|17|19|36|37|0.97

He was also known as a physical player, pretty rare for Soviet forwards of the era.

Thinking about it more, I do think Kapustin has a case to go this round.

As for Dzurilla and Lindmark - I think it's a case of not wanting to wait THAT long after Holecek for the next goalie, and who else would it be? I was fairly high on Lindmark on my original list - I guess I gave him a lot of credit for how strong Team Sweden became in the 1980s; I'm not sure how much of it was him, though.

As for Shadrin, I just checked, and I didn't even have him in my top 80, so don't blame me for him coming up so early They/we like him in the ATD because he killed penalties, but as an overall player, I don't see why he should be available right now.

 

[VMBM]

Given the fact that anyone can have a single good tournament, getting recognized for 1 single tournament is no better than getting recognized for 0, in my opinion. It's only when a guy was good enough to rack up awards in multiple tournaments, that it is meaningful IMO.

Lutchenko played in more competitive era I think - the quality of European hockey in the 1970s was likely a step up from the 1960s.

Also, the fact that all his domestic nods were consecutive is meaningful to me - he was that much better than every contemporary Soviet dman not named Vasiliev.

Yeah, the Soviets certainly had more superstar forwards in the 1970s than in the 1960s, and post Tarasov and Chernyshev they were probably allowed to play with slightly more freedom and thus could stand out a bit more, but it's not like the defencemen suddenly got a lot better imo. Maybe one advantage that they had compared to the '60s defencemen was that generally they (including Lutchenko) could shoot a bit better and were a little more useful with the puck. The offense arguably gained some, but I wonder if the actual defence suffered a bit as a result?

Of course, 7 straight all-star nods is pretty impressive in any case, but how was the competition really? There was Vasiliev, of course, but others? Tsygankov, Gusev, Lyapkin... Meh.

 

[Batis]

I really hope that Ulf Sterner will be available for voting before Lennart Svedberg gets added to the list. But soon I will start having Svedberg in my top 5 (not this round though). My impression has always been that Sterner at the time was considered the best/most important Swedish player of that era. I will try to find some quotes regarding Sterner in some old hockey books when I find the time. On my preliminary list I had them very close to each other , Sterner 31st and Svedberg 32nd, if I remember correctly. They are very close to each other when it comes to award recognition but in my opinion Sterners award recognition is somewhat more impressive. It is of course not perfect to compare the award recognition of a forward and a defenceman but here it is just for comparison sake.

Swedish All-Star team selections
Sterner 6 (61, 62, 63, 66, 67, 69)
Svedberg 6 (65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71)

Guldpucken
Sterner 1 (63)
Svedberg 0

Guldskridskon (Best Swedish player at the WHC/Olympics)
Sterner 2 (67, 69)
Svedberg 0

WHC Directorate award
Sterner 1 (69)
Svedberg 1 (70)

WHC All-Star team selections
Sterner 2 (62, 69)
Svedberg 3 (68, 69, 70)

Edit: Hopefully Sterner becomes available soon so we can discuss this more. And I hope that this is not considered off-topic for this thread.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Part of Svedberg's case is the 3 consecutive WHC All-Star births over every defenseman in the world not named Suchy and even beating out Suchy once.

Sterner won an All-Star nod in 1962 over pretty weak competition, then only has 1969 against good competition at the WHCs.

I also find it hard to take the Guldskridskon award seriously, when you look at who actually won the thing. (If we do take it seriously, Tumba looks pretty bad too).

During the defenseman project, there were a couple of Swedes arguing that there was a "big 3" group of Swedish defensemen in Svedberg, Salming, and Lidstrom. Were they out to lunch?

 

[Batis]

Part of Svedberg's case is the 3 consecutive WHC All-Star births over every defenseman in the world not named Suchy and even beating out Suchy once.

Sterner won an All-Star nod in 1962 over pretty weak competition, then only has 1969 against good competition at the WHCs.

I also find it hard to take the Guldskridskon award seriously, when you look at who actually won the thing. (If we do take it seriously, Tumba looks pretty bad too).

During the defenseman project, there were a couple of Swedes arguing that there was a "big 3" group of Swedish defensemen in Svedberg, Salming, and Lidstrom. Were they out to lunch?

It should probably be mentioned that Sterner won the 1969 Directorate award against Firsov so the quality of their Directorate awards are probably pretty equal. Another thing worth noting is that Sterner finished ahead of Firsov in the 1969 All-Star voting too while Svedberg was clearly behind Suchy in the 1970 All-Star voting so I guess that it could be said that Sterner was a more unanimous choice as the best forward than Svedberg was as the best defenceman in those respective tournaments. But I agree that Svedbergs overall WHC All-Star record is clearly stronger. But on the other hand Sterner won Guldskridskon as Swedens best player at the WHC/Olympics two times while Svedberg never won the award. So I would personally say that their international accomplishments are pretty close. And like I said my impression has always been that Sterner was the more highly regarded player in Sweden at the time. But I was not around at the time so I can´t say for sure but it is my impression. Anyway my point is that Sterner should be close to Svedberg on the list in my opinion so hopefully he becomes available soon.

Edit: I don´t think that the Guldskridskon award should be seen as the most important award or anything but in my opinion it is a interesting complement to the international All-Star voting as we get an insight into which player the team management and hockey federation thought was the teams best player each year.