Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Wingers)

[seventieslord]

there's been enough animosity and calling people out in this thread, but jeez seventieslord, for somebody who's "sick of reading about bure," it seems awfully rich to then go and suggest, however hedged, that a player's offensive numbers should be docked at almost the exact point where bure's best offensive years deviate from the norm.

which is to say, yes, your hedges are right. this is nonsense. and if you want to celebrate the greatest per-minute scorers of all time, then i have a hunch that you're going to be looking at a lot of past-their-prime offensive stars who were basically living off of being PP specialists later in their careers.

No one said we have to celebrate the greatest per-minute scorers of all-time...

So you don't think it's the least bit relevant that from 99-00 to 01-02, Bure:

- Played 16% more minutes than Recchi but scored 10% more points,
- Played 19% more minutes than Iginla but scored 11% more points,
- Played 24% more minutes than Naslund but scored 11% more points,
- Played 35% more minutes than Elias but scored 11% more points,
- Played 28% more minutes than Shanahan but scored 11% more points,
- Played 43% more minutes than Palffy but scored 19% more points,
- Played 41% more minutes than Robitaille but scored 21% more points

I think it's a valid point to consider. Wouldn't they have scored some more points if they played as much as he did? Wouldn't he have scored a few less if he played as little as they did?

Bure has the goal-scoring title for 1993-94. Nothing changes that.

A healthy Wendel Clark and/or Cam Neely and/or Mario Lemieux could have changed that.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

No one said we have to celebrate the greatest per-minute scorers of all-time...

So you don't think it's the least bit relevant that from 99-00 to 01-02, Bure:

- Played 16% more minutes than Recchi but scored 10% more points,
- Played 19% more minutes than Iginla but scored 11% more points,
- Played 24% more minutes than Naslund but scored 11% more points,
- Played 35% more minutes than Elias but scored 11% more points,
- Played 28% more minutes than Shanahan but scored 11% more points,
- Played 43% more minutes than Palffy but scored 19% more points,
- Played 41% more minutes than Robitaille but scored 21% more points

I think it's a valid point to consider. Wouldn't they have scored some more points if they played as much as he did? Wouldn't he have scored a few less if he played as little as they did?





A healthy Wendel Clark and/or Cam Neely and/or Mario Lemieux could have changed that.

fair enough.

you and i have very very different philosophies about what ifs and could haves. we've agreed to disagree before, and i'll concede that debate as unresolvable here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No one said we have to celebrate the greatest per-minute scorers of all-time...

So you don't think it's the least bit relevant that from 99-00 to 01-02, Bure:

- Played 16% more minutes than Recchi but scored 10% more points,
- Played 19% more minutes than Iginla but scored 11% more points,
- Played 24% more minutes than Naslund but scored 11% more points,
- Played 35% more minutes than Elias but scored 11% more points,
- Played 28% more minutes than Shanahan but scored 11% more points,
- Played 43% more minutes than Palffy but scored 19% more points,
- Played 41% more minutes than Robitaille but scored 21% more points

I think it's a valid point to consider. Wouldn't they have scored some more points if they played as much as he did? Wouldn't he have scored a few less if he played as little as they did?





A healthy Wendel Clark and/or Cam Neely and/or Mario Lemieux could have changed that.

Wendel Clark?

Anyway, it's the unique way Bure was used in Florida. On a team otherwise full of grinders, he wasn't asked to backcheck, instead saving his energy for offense, and yes, his ice time looked more like that of a #1 defenseman than a forward there.

Worked for them in 1999-00 (the one year that Bure got serious Hart consideration, and rightfully so I might add), not so much in 2000-01.

You say you're including 01-02 in your sample - I'm assuming that is a typo? Or are you looking at per-game rates?

 

[seventieslord]

Wendel Clark?

Clark had 46 goals in 64 games, on pace for the same 60 goals Bure had. Why so funny?

Anyway, it's the unique way Bure was used in Florida. On a team otherwise full of grinders, he wasn't asked to backcheck, instead saving his energy for offense, and yes, his ice time looked more like that of a #1 defenseman than a forward there.

Worked for them in 1999-00 (the one year that Bure got serious Hart consideration, and rightfully so I might add), not so much in 2000-01.

You say you're including 01-02 in your sample - I'm assuming that is a typo? Or are you looking at per-game rates?

Yes, minutes per game. Minimum 50 games in a season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Clark had 46 goals in 64 games, on pace for the same 60 goals Bure had. Why so funny?

Considering that Clark never came all that close to hitting that pace again, I find it unlikely he would have maintained it if he had been healthy. Whatever not really relevant here. I had forgotten what an outlier Clark's 1993-94 season was for him though

But anyway, I guess that since a lot of "what if Bure had been healthy the whole season?" has been posted in this thread (especially for 01-02) , it's only fair to mention Neely and Lemieux for 1994.

I swear this is my last thread on him in this thread.

 

[seventieslord]

LOL! It's not like he had 23 goals in 32 games - he played 76% of the season!

 

[JA]

Considering that Clark never came all that close to hitting that pace again, I find it unlikely he would have maintained it if he had been healthy. Whatever not really relevant here. I had forgotten what an outlier Clark's 1993-94 season was for him though

But anyway, I guess that since a lot of "what if Bure had been healthy the whole season?" has been posted in this thread (especially for 01-02) , it's only fair to mention Neely and Lemieux for 1994.

I swear this is my last thread on him in this thread.

I mean, if everyone wants to mention "what ifs" for health in 1994:

What if Bure didn't sustain a groin injury in 1993-94, keeping him out for 8 games and hampering him for much of late 1993?

http://search.proquest.com/docview/243230311

Courtnall scores overtime winner for Canucks against pesky Sharks: [FINAL Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 25 Oct 1993: D1.

...

This was not a game for the ages or the aged. The thrill-a-meter was mothballed for the night, especially when Pavel Bure lasted only one shift, aggravating a groin he hurt in Saturday's 6-4 victory over the Sharks. There was no immediate word on how long, or if, Bure would be sidelined.

The Russian Rocket hurt his left groin during the pre-season but this time the problem appears to be on the right. Bure was told the decision to play was his but obviously he wasn't ready. His absence threw all the Vancouver lines out of sync.

...

http://search.proquest.com/docview/267490470

SNOOZE YA LOSE: Sleepy Sharks bitten in OT: [Final Edition]
Luba, Frank. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 25 Oct 1993: A36.

...

The team's leading scorer heading into the game with 7-6-13, after leaving the third period of Saturday's 6-4 win against the Sharks with a groin injury. Bure lasted three minutes Sunday, slipping to the ice while being forechecked and then returning slowly to the bench. He didn't get back into the game and the extent of his injury, presumably to the groin, was not known at press time.

...

http://search.proquest.com/docview/243241796

Ailing Russian Rocket returns home early: [FINAL Edition]
MacINTYRE, IAIN. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 06 Nov 1993: H1.

Pavel Bure's recovery from a groin injury has stalled, and the Vancouver Canucks' star winger was sent home Friday to rest while his injury-decimated team finishes its Atlantic Division road trip.

...

``I had a practice (Thursday) night, and I tried skating hard,'' Bure said. ``I had a sore groin right away. We decided I should stay away from the ice for two or three days.

``I'm disappointed because I can't play but I'm trying to think positive. It feels great when I walk. I'll play hopefully in three or four days.''

Bure said it is the worst injury he has had since knee surgery kept him off skates for two months when he was 16.

Canucks' trainer Larry Ashley said a pulled groin is difficult to gauge in terms of recovery time because damage is harder to assess than most other injuries.

``It's not like a knee, where you can evaluate whether it's loose,'' Ashley said from Washington. ``With a groin, you don't know until you get on the ice. You have to listen to the symptoms.''

Ashley said Bure's recovery has ``plateaued out'' for the time being, as he is unable to go beyond three-quarter speed without pain.

...

http://search.proquest.com/docview/432516639

Russian Rocket not firing on all pistons: [FINAL Edition]
Jamieson, Jim. The Gazette [Montreal, Que] 25 Nov 1993: D9.

VANCOUVER - For Pavel Bure, the first 21 games of the NHL season have brought less brilliance and more frustration than anyone would have predicted for the Vancouver Canucks' superb right- winger.

After starting off at his usual point and a half per game, Bure suffered the first real injury of consequence since he was 16 - a badly pulled groin on Oct. 24. He missed eight games with the lingering injury and is still struggling to regain his form.

...

In his five games in the lineup since returning, the Russian Rocket has only shown flashes of his trademark speed and the results haven't been there. Last year's 60-goal scorer has just one goal and three points in the five games.

...

But in the meantime, playing hockey hasn't been as much fun as Bure is used to.

"Right now I'm not enjoying the game of hockey," he said. "Right now, it's more like work for me. When I'm playing very well, it's fun. When things don't go right it's tough to go out on the ice. But that's OK - you just need one nice game and everything's all right."

If we're considering injuries that season now, what do we make of Bure playing through the first half hurt?

He scored 7 goals, 13 points in 8 games before he was hurt. From late December to the end of the season he had a streak of 49 goals, 78 points in 51 games. That's 56 goals in 59 games pre-injury and post-recovery that year. What do we make of the period in between when he was playing through an injury?

Works Cited

Jamieson, Jim. "Russian Rocket Not Firing on all Pistons." The Gazette: 0. Nov 25 1993. ProQuest. Web. 9 Nov. 2014 .

Luba, Frank. "SNOOZE YA LOSE: Sleepy Sharks Bitten in OT." The Province: 0. Oct 25 1993. ProQuest. Web. 9 Nov. 2014 .

MacINTYRE, IAIN. "Ailing Russian Rocket Returns Home Early." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Nov 06 1993. ProQuest. Web. 9 Nov. 2014 .

Pap, Elliott. "Courtnall Scores Overtime Winner for Canucks Against Pesky Sharks." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 25 1993. ProQuest. Web. 9 Nov. 2014 .

 

[JA]

Ovechkin was a dominant possession player, and as you said, got a lot more assists. Also a physical force.

Just an honest question: Is Bure not a strong possession player to you? In my estimation, and having watched many games for my research, I think he was.

In terms of overall play, many aspects other than his goal-scoring have been discussed. He was physical and had a strong work ethic, as the Hockey Almanac, McKeen's, and Hockey Scouting Report entries state. His skill set was very diverse, and his individual ability to generate offense is unique to him in this group. He could create an offensive opportunity "out of nothing," as many of his peers and coaches have said -- that lends itself to a strong transition game.

We also covered his playmaking ability earlier in this thread, although that was overshadowed by discussion of other topics.

Here is a link back to that post. I encourage you to comment on the evidence. Thanks.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=92182701&postcount=402

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mean, if everyone wants to mention "what ifs" for health in 1994:

What if Bure didn't sustain a groin injury in 1993-94, keeping him out for 8 games and hampering him for much of late 1993?

http://search.proquest.com/docview/243230311

http://search.proquest.com/docview/267490470

http://search.proquest.com/docview/243241796

http://search.proquest.com/docview/432516639

If we're considering injuries that season now, what do we make of Bure playing through the first half hurt?

He scored 7 goals, 13 points in 8 games before he was hurt. From late December to the end of the season he had a streak of 49 goals, 78 points in 51 games. That's 56 goals in 59 games pre-injury and post-recovery that year. What do we make of the period in between when he was playing through an injury?

Neely had 50 goals in 49 games. Just saying.

(And yes, that was the year Neely played with Adam Oates).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just an honest question: Is Bure not a strong possession player to you?

Strong compared to Brett Hull or your average NHLer, nothing special compared to the other candidates this round. Not like Ovechkin during Ovechkin's prime, when Ovechkin was probably the best possession forward in the NHL.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Neely had 50 goals in 49 games. Just saying.

bure in '94:

month games goals
January 13 13
February 11 9
March 16 19
April 7 5

46 in 47

 

[JA]

Strong compared to Brett Hull or your average NHLer, nothing special compared to the other candidates this round. Not like Ovechkin during Ovechkin's prime, when Ovechkin was probably the best possession forward in the NHL.

Where do you rank his possession game compared to the other candidates this round?

Also, please do comment on the evidence, which has multiple players and analysts, such as Igor Larionov, Mark Messier, and Yvan Cournoyer calling Bure a playmaker. Messier calls Bure "a tremendous passer." He receives high praise, and considering who his linemates for most of his career his playmaking ability appears underutilized.

 

[JA]

bure in '94:

month games goals
January 13 13
February 11 9
March 16 19
April 7 5

46 in 47

49 in 51 going back to late December. 56 in 59 that season if we consider his pre-injury numbers as well. When Bure was injured between late October and mid-December, he had just 4 goals in 17 games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where do you rank his possession game compared to the other candidates this round?

middle of the pack when healthy

 

[JA]

middle of the pack when healthy

Would you be able to provide a ranking, TDMM? Thanks. I'd like to know who you regard above and below him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Would you be able to provide a ranking, TDMM? Thanks. I'd like to know who you regard above and below him.

Assuming that "possession" means contributions to his team possessing the puck, rather than individual possession like fancy stickwork, I think that Iginla and Kurri were probably better among modern players. Hull worse. Hard to tell with St. Louis - probably close. Again, when healthy.

Harder to tell with pre-expansion players, since "possession" isn't exactly something usually found in most profiles. Though judging from his all-star record and everything else written about him, Busher Jackson was likely a strong possession player during his short prime.

 

[unknown33]

Dickie Moore, who won 2 Art Rosses while playing an excellent all-round game and who was a consistently excellent playoff performer?

Don't see the comparison.

No Dickie Moore, the one whose reputation is better than his on paper resume (Hart votes?) and that was criticized for being a peak only player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No Dickie Moore, the one whose reputation is better than his on paper resume (Hart votes?) and that was criticized for being a peak only player.

A little late for this now. I would probably rank Moore 3rd this round FWIW, though. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one to argue that Moore/Bathgate/Geoffrion should be voted in together? Why the sudden change of heart?)

Still waiting for a poll of NHL insiders that would make Bure look better than Iginla.

(QPQ already posted a very favorable player's poll for Iginla in 2002, but obviously that is just one year. Edit: Oh, I looked at the poll. It was a poll for "player of the year," so it was specifically about just that one year. So I wouldn't put a ton of stock into it, since we already know the circumstances of 2001-02).

 

[Hardyvan123]

You realize that Moore played more regular season games than Bure at a time where the regular season was somewhat significantly shorter, right?

Yes 17 more games in 70 game seasons, given Bure's last year in Russia it's more significant that Moores last 2 not great seasons.

it's basically a wash there.

 

[JA]

A little late for this now. I would probably rank Moore 3rd this round FWIW, though. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one to argue that Moore/Bathgate/Geoffrion should be voted in together? Why the sudden change of heart?)

Still waiting for a poll of NHL insiders that would make Bure look better than Iginla.

(QPQ already posted a very favorable player's poll for Iginla in 2002, but obviously that is just one year. Edit: Oh, I looked at the poll. It was a poll for "player of the year," so it was specifically about just that one year. So I wouldn't put a ton of stock into it, since we already know the circumstances of 2001-02).

Well, I spoke earlier about not trusting Scott Morrison's 2010 book as a reference for Bure's style of play outside of Florida, as his description conforms closely with what people saw in Florida in terms of describing Bure's interest level: "he would often drift around the ice without interest of purpose, then suddenly turn on the jets, grab a loose puck, and speed up the ice to score on a fast break." The problem I have with that is that Morrison makes no distinction between his style of play in Florida and in Vancouver, making readers assume that the description encapsulates all of Bure's career. We know that outside of Florida his interest level was much greater.

That said, the book, Best of the Best: Ranking the Greatest Players of All Time, ranks Bure ahead of Iginla on the list of greatest modern NHL right wingers of all time (9 vs 10). This ranking was done in 2010. Martin St. Louis does not appear on either the book's list of the Top 10 greatest modern left or right wing players.

The selection panel consisted of CBC's Hockey Night in Canada crew in addition to Andrew Podnieks:

(In alphabetical order)

Dean Brown
Cassie Campbell
Bob Cole
Garry Galley
Kelly Hrudey
Jim Hughson
Dick Irvin
Pierre LeBrun
Mark Lee
Jeff Marek
Mike Milbury
Scott Oake
Andrew Podnieks
Craig Simpson
Tim Wharnsby

Podnieks' credentials are of particular note. From the book:

Andrew Podnieks is the author of some 55 books on hockey, most recently Retired Numbers, Superstitions, and the best-selling Canadian Gold 2010. Additionally, he has worked with the IIHF, Hockey Canada, the Hockey Hall of Fame, and Canada's Sports Hall of Fame. Podnieks has created media guides for all major IIHF events -- the Olympics, World Championships, World Women's Championships, and World Junior (U20) Championships. He writes extensively for www . IIHF . com on a regular basis and has covered three Olympics and nine World Championships among his many assignments for hockey's governing body of international hockey. His website is www . andrewpodnieks . com.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, I spoke earlier about not trusting Scott Morrison's 2010 book as a reference for Bure's style of play outside of Florida, as his description conforms closely with what people saw in Florida in terms of describing Bure's interest level: "he would often drift around the ice without interest of purpose, then suddenly turn on the jets, grab a loose puck, and speed up the ice to score on a fast break." The problem I have with that is that Morrison makes no distinction between his style of play in Florida and in Vancouver, making readers assume that the description encapsulates all of Bure's career. We know that outside of Florida his interest level was much greater.

That said, the book, Best of the Best: Ranking the Greatest Players of All Time, ranks Bure ahead of Iginla on the list of greatest NHL right wingers of all time. Martin St. Louis does not appear on either the book's list of the Top 10 greatest left or right wing players.

The selection panel consisted of CBC's Hockey Night in Canada crew:

(In alphabetical order)

Dean Brown
Cassie Campbell
Bob Cole
Garry Galley
Kelly Hrudey
Jim Hughson
Dick Irvin
Pierre LeBrun
Mark Lee
Jeff Marek
Mike Milbury
Scott Oake
Andrew Podnieks
Craig Simpson
Tim Wharnsby

Published in 2010, means the panel probably put together the list in 2009. I would probably rank Bure over Iginla and St Louis 5 years ago too.

Wait: The book ranks Bure and Iginla in the top 10 RWs of all time? That's... a little questionable already.

 

[JA]

Published in 2010, means the panel probably put together the list in 2009. I would probably rank Bure over Iginla and St Louis 5 years ago too.

Wait: The book ranks Bure and Iginla in the top 10 RWs of all time? That's... a little questionable already.

I'm only posting a source. I invite you to interpret it as you feel. You have the names of the selection committee available to you.

 

[JA]

Published in 2010, means the panel probably put together the list in 2009. I would probably rank Bure over Iginla and St Louis 5 years ago too.

Wait: The book ranks Bure and Iginla in the top 10 RWs of all time? That's... a little questionable already.

I should have specified: greatest modern right wingers.

The book splits "original six" and "modern" into two different eras, creating separate top ten lists for each. They felt pre-expansion and post-expansion eras should be split into two separate categories for the purpose of their rankings due to the difficult nature of comparing the eras.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought I had written that in my original post.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I should have specified: greatest modern right wingers.

The book splits "original six" and "modern" into two different eras, creating separate top ten lists for each.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought I had written that in my original post.

In that case, I think that Bure in 9 and Iginla in 10 among "modern" right wingers seems perfectly reasonable as of 5 years ago. As is St. Louis not being ranked. On this forum, I remember Iginla and Bure were getting fringe support on Top 120 players of all-time lists in 2009 (everyone participating in that never-completed project submitted lists of 120 players).

(Though just as a nitpick, I absolutely hate that everything before 1967 is called "Original 6" when there were more than 6 teams before 1943).

Thanks for posting it. I honestly did not know this book existed. The CBC panel is obviously not as prestigious as one including NHL GMs and coaches, but it's still pretty solid, I would imagine. At least among players they saw play (I'd imagine their "modern" list is a lot better than their "Original 6" list).

 

[unknown33]

A little late for this now. I would probably rank Moore 3rd this round FWIW, though. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one to argue that Moore/Bathgate/Geoffrion should be voted in together? Why the sudden change of heart?)

Alright obviously it wasn't directed at you then. I also recall seventieslord not being very fond of Moore.

What I wanted to say is that the reasons to vote for Bure and Moore are similar (peak & praise by hockey people) not that they should be ranked closely or that they have a comparable skillset.