Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans)

[Theokritos]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 10 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 10 points, 2nd place votes worth 9 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

Vote 6 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Sunday, January 3rd 2016. You may PM votes to Theokritos starting on Saturday, January 2nd.

Vote 6 will be for places 21 through 25 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Veniamin Aleksandrov
Helmuts Balderis
Vsevolod Bobrov
Ivan Hlinka
Jiří Holík
Vladimir Lutchenko
Josef Maleček
Aleksandr Ragulin
Nikolay Sologubov
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Lennart Svedberg
Vladimír Zábrodský

Note that we are now voting for the top 10, rather than just top 8, as we aim to add 5 players per round

 

[Canadiens1958]

Early Soviet League

Early Soviet League text, images and data. Presents an interesting overview especially of the early Soviet players under consideration:

1950-51
https://conwaysrussianhockey.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/1950-51-the-line/

1951-52
https://conwaysrussianhockey.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/1951-52-tiebreaker/

1953-54
https://conwaysrussianhockey.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/1953-54-upset/

1953-54 is interesting. Post Josef Stalin. Early look at possible tactical changes that seem to focus on defencemen. Perhaps in step with what was happening in the NHL with the emergence of scoring rearguards - Kelly, Harvey, Gadsby.

Sadly we do not have Soviet League videos but the 1954 NHL finals video posted in its own thread :

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1999503

illustrates the offensive roles and efforts of leading defencemen.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nikolai Sologubov

A quick overview, including comments by leading Canadian hockey media and Senior people, of the 1956 Winter Olympics ice hockey competition mentions the quality of certain Soviet players.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NTErAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RJkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3360,1048778

Nikolai Sologubov gets high praise as do other Soviets. However Vsevolod Bobrov was not mentioned - leading Soviet scorer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_at_the_1956_Winter_Olympics

To be fair none of the leading Canadian scorers were viewed as promising.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Veniamin Aleksandrov
Helmuts Balderis
Vsevolod Bobrov
Ivan Hlinka
Jiří Holík
Vladimir Lutchenko
Josef Maleček
Aleksandr Ragulin
Nikolay Sologubov
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Lennart Svedberg
Vladimír Zábrodský

Interesting group of players.

To me it's a three group split here, even though some people will probably rank Starshinov, Hlinka and Aleksandrov in that first group.

First group:

Bobrov
Sologubov
Malecek
Zábrodský

Second Group:

Starshinov
Aleksandrov
Hlinka
Holik

Third Group:

Balderis
Lutchenko
Svedberg
Ragulin

 

[Canadiens1958]

1955 World Championships

Wrap-up story about the 1955 World Hockey Championships.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aYcwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4dwFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=7071,1289018

Some insight into the Soviet tactics - letting the wingers rush the puck across the blue line then looking for the center.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First impressions:

- Balderis is easily the best Golden Era Soviet not yet added to our list, and has a great shot at my #1. His domestic record is very similar to Maltsev's, and we have direct information that at least some of his lack of international opportunities are because he was a proud Latvian who didn't want to be transferred to the army team in Moscow.

- I currently have Holik decisively over Hlinka as the best Golden era Czech available, but I'm open to being shown otherwise.

-I'm glad Ragulin didn't make it yet. I definitely think Ragulin vs Lutchenko vs Sologubov is a very worthwhile comparison. I might have Svedberg over all of the in the end.

-Too early for Malecek IMO. He has to go a tier below Zabrodsky and Bobrov, right? At least they played in what resembled a somewhat competitive era.

-On the other hand, I think it might be time to give Bobrov and Zabrodsky serious looks at our list. Sologubov too (on my original list, I actually had Zabrodsky over Bobrov due to longevity and Sologubov over Bobrov due to competitiveness in a stronger era). I think we're almost through with the true stars of the Golden era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships 1954-1991

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

****Note that I am now ordering the players roughly chronologically****

Defensemen

Nikolai Sologubov

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Alexander Ragulin

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Lennart Svedberg

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Vladimir Lutchenko was not named Best forward or an All Star at any WHC, though he's the only one available regularly overshadowed by his own team teammate (Vasiliev).

Forwards

Jozef Malecek retired long before any of these awards were handed out.

Vladimir Zabrodsky

• Most of his career predates all the official awards, but he led both the 1947 WCs and 1948 Olympics in scoring by wide margins
• Received the most votes among forwards in a 1955 coach's poll for an unofficial WC All-Star Team

Vsevolod Bobrov

• Directorate Best Forward (1954)
  His career predates the official All-Star Teams, but he seems to have been voted an All-Star by coaches in 1955

Vyacheslav Starshinov

• Directorate Best Forward (1965)

Venjamin Alexandrov

• All Star Forward (1966, 1967)

Jiri Holik was not named Best forward or an All Star at any WHC

Helmut Balderis

• Directorate Best Forward (1977)
• All Star Forward (1977)

Ivan Hlinka

• All Star Forward (1978)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jiri Holik and Ivan Hlinka and domestic awards voting:

Golden Hockey Stick Top 15 finishes

Holik:
4th (1969), 8th (1970), 7th (1971), 6th (1972), 2nd (1973), 2nd (1974), 3rd (1975), 8th (1976), 10th (1977),

Holik never won the Golden Hockey Stick, but his voting peak from 1973-1975 is quite impressive, finishing 2nd to Martinec, 2nd to Holecek, 3rd to both of them, in these three consecutive seasons.

Hlinka:
7th (1971), 9th (1972), 12th (1973), 4th (1974), 8th (1975), 4th (1976), 2nd (1977), 1st (1978), 7th (1979), 7th (1981)

Hlinka finished 2nd to Novy in 1977 and won in 1978.

Overall records:

Holik: 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8, 10
Hlinka: 1, 2, 4, 4, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 12

They look pretty close by this metric. Would Holik have more top 15 finishes if the award were given out prior to 1969?

Golden Hockey Stick Shares:

A "share" represents the percentage of the available Golden Hockey Stick votes a player actually gotten. Details here

Jiri Holik: 14.5, 13.8, 11.5, 6.5, 6.4, 6.3, 6.3, 5.2, 2.8, 0.4
Ivan Hlinka: 16.3, 11.5, 9.5, 7.6, 5.6, 5.1, 5.1, 5.0, 4.5, 2.7, 0.4

Shares show something similar - Hlinka's best season looks a little better, Holik's 2nd and 3rd best seasons look a little better, and there is a big drop off for both players after their respective 3rd best seasons.

Domestic All-Star Teams

This is where Holik looks really good and Hlinka looks really bad, or do they?

Jiri Holik was All-Star LW in 1969, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, and 1976. Josef Cerny was All-Star LW in 1970 and 1971.

Ivan Hlinka was never All-Star C. All Star Cs during his prime: Vaclav Nedomansky (1971, 1973, 1974), Jaroslav Holik (1972), Milan Novy (1975, 1976, 1977).

Novy was also named Tip Magazine best forward in 1977 and 1978 - yes, Hlinka won the Golden Hockey Stick by a landslide in 1978, but Novy was named Best forward by Tip Magazine.

So the question is - does this make Holik look better? Or did he just face significantly weaker competition than Hlinka, who seems to have been overshadowed by first Nedomansky, then Novy?

___

These two are likely closer than I had thought going into the round

 

[DN28]

They look pretty close by this metric. Would Holik have more top 15 finishes if the award were given out prior to 1969?



So the question is - does this make Holik look better? Or did he just face significantly weaker competition than Hlinka, who seems to have been overshadowed by first Nedomansky, then Novy?

1) Definitely. The competition in 2nd half of 60s wasn´t as strong as during 70s and Holik pretty good seasons and was a consistent member of NT since 1963-64.

top 5 in scoring for CSSR in WC before GS voting: 1966, 1967.

top 10 in domestic scoring before GS voting: 1967 (10.).

He played mostly with his brother or with Nedomansky during this period. He was usually a member of the line that scored the most in team.

Also 1966-67 was the beginning of Dukla Jihlava dynasty where Jiri Holik was member of the famous first unit (Suchy - Smid, Klapac - Holik - Holik) which dominated the league in late 60/early 70s.

2) The competition for Hlinka was definitely tougher, no doubt about it. I also have a problem with those all-stars considering that it was likely just one magazine naming their players, not some broader panel of voters like it has been in NHL.

IMO Hlinka was the best forward (domestically) in two seasons: 1974-75 and 1977-78. IMO one of the best seasons for any CS player as far as offense and numbers are concerned. Journalists just might put too much emphasize on team success and thus prefer Novy.

1974-1975 (6.48 goals per game)
1. Ivan Hlinka - 79 points (36+43) / 44 games
2. Milan Nový - 67 points (45+22) / 44 games
3. Marián Šťastný - 61 points (36+25) / 41 games
4. Josef Ulrych - 60 points (34+26) / 44 games
5. Jiří Novák - 51 points (24+27) / 44 games
6. Bedřich Brunclík - 44 points (24+20) / 42 games
7. Vladimír Martinec - 42 points (29+13) / 40 games
8. Eduard Novák - 41 points (29+12) / 44 games
9. Václav Mařík - 40 points (19+21) / 44 games
10. Jan Hrbatý - 40 points (17+23) / 44 games

- Novy´s Kladno won title and their dynasty began. Hlinka´s Litvinov was 4th.

1977-1978 (6.77 goals per game)
1. Milan Nový - 73 points (40+33) / 44 games
2. Ivan Hlinka - 72 points (33+39) / 43 games
3. Jaroslav Pouzar - 62 points (42+20) / 43 games
4. Vincent Lukáč - 58 points (36+22) / 42 games
5. Peter Šťastný - 54 points (31+23) / 42 games
6. Jiří Bubla - 51 points (22+29) / 44 games
7. Eduard Novák - 49 points (37+12) / 44 games
8. Marián Šťastný - 48 points (30+18) / 44 games
9. Jozef Lukáč - 48 points (29+19) / 44 games
10. Libor Havlíček - 44 points (18+26) / 43 games

- Kladno 1st and Litvinov 2nd. Remember that Hlinka was more of a playmaking center than goalscoring like Novy. If assists were recorded like today, Hlinka would probably win the scoring title this year. Not to mention he missed one game, unlike Novy.

 

[Theokritos]

I definitely think Ragulin vs Lutchenko vs Sologubov is a very worthwhile comparison.

Sologubov easily has the most impressive international resume with three "Best Defenceman" awards (1956, 1957, 1960) despite of suffering from two drawbacks:
-No opportunity to play at the WHC during the first years of his prime
-There were no annual WHC All-star selections prior to 1961 (he made the coaches' All-star selection in 1955)
The potential argument against him is the competition level in his day, but Canadian observers not exactly foreign to NHL hockey were pretty confident about Sologubov:

Bobby Bauer (Canadian/Kitchener coach in 1956, former NHL All-Star) said:
"Sologubov could star on any National Hockey League team." - 1956

Milt Dunnell, Sports Editor of the Toronto Star said:
"Sologubov and Krylov could make any National Hockey League club and be a star." - 1956

Foster Hewitt (Hockey broadcaster) said:
"Solly is the best two-way defenceman I have seen in a long time." - 1956

Andy O'Brien (Weekend Magazine sports editor) said:
"He could make any NHL team." - 1956

"Canadian observers on the scene [1956 Olympics] went wild about Solly, a friendly, grinning 32-year old who displayed gold inlays from ear to ear." - The Ottawa Citizen, January 14, 1960

"Gone are the stars of previous world and Olympic hockey tournaments including big Nikolai (Solly) Sologubov, the first Russian who learned the art of the crunching bodycheck and who rated as National Hockey League defence timber." - The Brandon Sun, October 18, 1962

Ragulin won the WHC "Best Defenceman" award once (1966) and made the All-star team four times (1964, 1965, 1966, 1967). As pointed out before, he was an afterthought to international observers after 1967 despite of still making the Soviet All-star team.

Lutchenko didn't win any individual awards at the WHC, as already mentioned. A look at the available voting results show that he was 3rd (tied with another player) in 1972 and also got some support in 1970 (6th) and 1971 (7th). Some of his prime years (-1977) are not covered, but I think it's obvious he was never a standout like Sologubov and Ragulin. On the flipside competition in the 1970s was better than during the 1950s and the mid-1960s.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Defencemen

Sologubov easily has the most impressive international resume with three "Best Defenceman" awards (1956, 1957, 1960) despite of suffering from two drawbacks:
-No opportunity to play at the WHC during the first years of his prime
-There were no annual WHC All-star selections prior to 1961 (he made the coaches' All-star selection in 1955)
The potential argument against him is the competition level in his day, but Canadian observers not exactly foreign to NHL hockey were pretty confident about Sologubov:



Ragulin won the WHC "Best Defenceman" award once (1966) and made the All-star team four times (1964, 1965, 1966, 1967). As pointed out before, he was an afterthought to international observers after 1967 despite of still making the Soviet All-star team.

Lutchenko didn't win any individual awards at the WHC, as already mentioned. A look at the available voting results show that he was 3rd (tied with another player) in 1972 and also got some support in 1970 (6th) and 1971 (7th). Some of his prime years (-1977) are not covered, but I think it's obvious he was never a standout like Sologubov and Ragulin. On the flipside competition in the 1970s was better than during the 1950s and the mid-1960s.

Suggest that Nikolai Sologubov may be viewed as the prototype for the Soviet/European defenceman. Ragulin, far from.

Interesting aspect of the post 1956 Winter Olympics comments by pundits is that they looked beyond the counting stats of Vsevolod Bobrov, focusing on hockey skills.

 

[seventieslord]

Ragulin won the WHC "Best Defenceman" award once (1966) and made the All-star team four times (1964, 1965, 1966, 1967). As pointed out before, he was an afterthought to international observers after 1967 despite of still making the Soviet All-star team.

These kinds of statements seem to indicate far too much reliance on world championship awards that are based on about 8 games of play. If Ragulin was still making the soviet all-star team that means he was one of the two best soviet defenders all year, and on the whole, knowing what we know about competitiveness of the nations, that probably still makes him 3rd-6th internationally, among the pools of players we'd be considering for this project. It seems like we're treating "non-IIHF all-star" seasons by some guys as though they may as well have just not been playing at all, when in fact they were playing, and at quite a high level.

 

[Sturminator]

What are you talking about? Starshinov scored over 400 goals (at least according to some sources) in the domestic league. Only a certain Boris Mikhailov scored more goals. And what's wrong with his reputation exactly? It seems that you put too much emphasis on some source that does not rate Starshinov very highly. He clearly stands out from Mayorov, especially domestically, and I doubt that assists (if they had been recorded) would make much difference in that. Alexandrov is a somewhat different case, and like I said previously, I would've liked to have seen him eligible already. However, Alexandrov seems to be a little forgotten player nowadays, for whatever reason, whereas Starshinov isn't (as much).

Actually, the assists that were recorded by official Soviet scorekeepers (but just not a part of the official scoring record) indicate that Starshinov and Mayorov were roughly equal in terms of offensive production, with both being behind Alexandrov. It should be noted that the assist numbers we have from the 60's Soviet league are not those of a "permissive" assists system like the modern NHL, where goals are clearly more valuable, on the whole. The Soviet league assist numbers we have for this period are low with relation to goals (rather like pre-war NHL assist numbers), and Starshinov's are almost comically low. This matches his international record in terms of goals/assists production. All of the assist information relevant to this conversation can be found here. I tabulated this information from the SIHR tables, which added Soviet league assist data late last year, I believe, thanks to some good work by Patrick Houda.

Long story short, goal scoring data grossly overrates Starshinov relative to his contemporaries. The Soviet league assist data which paints Starshinov as easily the worst playmaker of the famous forwards of the era is corroborated by the international scoring record, which it mirrors. Starshinov's player of the year voting record is also quite "fortunate". The award was created right as Alexandrov/Mayorov were on the decline, and before the KPM generation really hit its stride. Starshinov's Soviet player of the year record from 68-70 falls during a low point in the league in terms of high-end competition at forward (and forwards typically dominated that award voting).

Championat is only one source, but it is the most authoritative source of Russian hockey history I know of. It describes Boris Mayorov as clearly the best Spartak player of his generation, and is not at all short on superlatives when describing Alexandrov. Starshinov's profile is rather more sparse in terms of praise.

 

[DN28]

It´s true that while Holik has longevity and defensive play, Hlinka had immense leadership qualities. He was a natural leader right from the beginning of his career, became captain of Litvínov when he was just 20 years old, became captain of national team after Pospisil in 1978. And his best WC was probably right in Prague 1978 when Czechoslovaks tried to win 3x in row. All-star center and 2nd best in overall scoring when he was just named as a captain proves that Hlinka was the kind of player who thrived under pressure.
He was also leader in next WC finishing 8th in overall scoring. IMO Hlinka, Pospisil and Zabrodsky are the best Czech trio of hockey leaders. Btw. both Hlinka´s and Zabrodsky´s nickname was "šéf" = the boss.

Karel Gut´s description from his encyclopedia:
"Outstanding center who became famous through an individual approach which was enabled to him by his physical disposition of well-built stature and excellent technique with the stick. Personality with a gift to overturn the game, able of creative cooperation. He controlled both technical and hard wrist shot."

Nice description from here:
"Another member of successful generation of the 70s and at the same time representative of a category 'boss'.
Typical sportsman who pulls others up, hates to lose, encourages others. For ten years Litvínov was built on him, he took the role of captain after František Pospíšil in the National team too. When things went down, it was Hlinka himself who could turn the game, break the adverse score. Not just with incitement, but also with an act: to score a goal, assist on a goal, or to create a key play.
He had an ideal high stature for a play of center, however, he was an awesome technician too and he managed to control the puck greatly even in speed. He scored goals, started up actions, could produce on his own and creatively worked for a team as well.
He worked his way up to life form in 1977. Then he won the poll of Mladá fronta in a dominant fashion among all of ten voters. 'Why is he first? I´ll answer with rhetorical question: have we ever had such a forward in the past?' said Mikoláš at the time. (Josef Mikoláš = popular Czech goalie from the 60s)
Not just the hockey skills decided the Hockey player of century poll though. 'I have a thing for Ivan', Karel Gut admitted."

Indeed, both Suchy and Jiri Holik mentions him in their bios that he liked to take control or direct everything right from his youth when he started in national team in 1970 (he was 20 years old). Holik for example mentions that a lot of powerplay strategies were made up by Hlinka himself instead of coaches.
_____________________________

And 2nd positive aspect of career that may be overlooked is his NHL career. By the time he arrived to Vancouver (32 years old) he was pretty much done as an elite player in national team and in league too. He had two knee surgeries and chronic back problems which he of course felt during his two seasons overseas.

1981-82: (32 y/o) 72 games (23+37) / 60 points
- playoffs: 12 games (2+6) / 8 points
- overall: 84 games and 68 points

1982-83: (33 y/o) 65 games (19+44) / 63 points
- playoffs: 4 games (1+4) / 5 points
- overall: 69 games and 68 points
- from players that were of the same age or older, only Bobby Clarke scored more points than Hlinka in this season

 

[Theokritos]

These kinds of statements seem to indicate far too much reliance on world championship awards that are based on about 8 games of play.

It was a statement of fact, but the value of WHC awards vs domestic awards is debatable, sure.

If Ragulin was still making the soviet all-star team that means he was one of the two best soviet defenders all year, and on the whole, knowing what we know about competitiveness of the nations, that probably still makes him 3rd-6th internationally, among the pools of players we'd be considering for this project. It seems like we're treating "non-IIHF all-star" seasons by some guys as though they may as well have just not been playing at all, when in fact they were playing, and at quite a high level.

That's not what I'm doing, or at least I hope so. All of Sologubov, Ragulin and Lutchenko are pretty close when it comes to those non-IIHF all-star seasons. Ragulin was a Soviet All-star for nine years (including one retro All-star nod) and Lutchenko for seven. Sologubov got seven nods (six of them retro: the Soviets didn't regularly select 2 defencemen prior to 1964).

 

[VMBM]

Actually, the assists that were recorded by official Soviet scorekeepers (but just not a part of the official scoring record) indicate that Starshinov and Mayorov were roughly equal in terms of offensive production, with both being behind Alexandrov. It should be noted that the assist numbers we have from the 60's Soviet league are not those of a "permissive" assists system like the modern NHL, where goals are clearly more valuable, on the whole. The Soviet league assist numbers we have for this period are low with relation to goals (rather like pre-war NHL assist numbers), and Starshinov's are almost comically low.

Long story short, goal scoring data grossly overrates Starshinov relative to his contemporaries.The Soviet league assist data which paints Starshinov as easily the worst playmaker of the famous forwards of the era is corroborated by the international scoring record, which it mirrors.

Errr, as far as I can see, the (scattered) assists data would make Starshinov drop from top 5 (scoring) in the 1961-62 (from 3rd to 7th, but the goal-scoring was extremely close that season anyway) and 1964-65 (from 5th to 8th, but e.g. Mayorov would suffer too) and 1965-66 (from 5th to 6th, same amount of points as #5 Almetov) seasons. Big ******* deal. And on the other hand, in the 1962-63 season, the assist data actually help him to rise from 5th to 4th. And he would still win the scoring title in the 1966-67 and 1967-68 seasons, albeit not quite as clearly as only with goals. You can argue that if all of the assist data were available, there would be more drops, but we are in the 'assumption land' there...

Comically low, easily the worst playmaker etc? Look at the available domestic assist data for Almetov (early-/mid-'60s) and Polupanov (late '60s), his biggest rivals at center. Polupanov's existing assist numbers are even worse, and Almetov managed double digits only in the 1964-65 season (as far as we know); overall, A's assist numbers don't look any better than Starshinov's. A worse playmaker than Firsov and Alexandrov? Yes, but no assist numbers are needed to know that of course. But neither of them had the physicality that Starshinov brought to the table; you know, the sort that the Soviet national team was lacking at least in the early-/mid-1970s (according to Tarasov). Starshinov was also a noted two-way player. Firsov was probably a better defensive forward than Starshinov - at least more talented - but I very much doubt that Alexandrov was.

Starshinov scored 404 goals in the Soviet league and Mayorov 252 goals (source: Finnish hockey book Suuri jääkiekkoteos 2). That is a massive difference. Here are the overall goal-scoring numbers for Starshinov and some of his '60s rivals:

Vyacheslav Starshinov - 537 gp, 404 g, 0.752 GPG
Anatoly Firsov - 474 gp, 339 g, 0.715 GPG
Venyamin Alexandrov - 400 gp, 345 g, 0.862 GPG
Boris Mayorov - 400 gp, 252 g, 0.63 GPG

As for his international play, Starshinov was a good, consistent although not great performer/point-getter at the 'major internationals' (1.202 PPG http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=106601341&postcount=244) for about a decade. He got WHC All-Star Team votes e.g. in 1965, 1968 and 1970... unfortunately, we have only scattered data once again, but if he was good enough to get a fair amount of recognition as late as in 1970, well, one can ASSUME that he did pretty well overall in the 1960s.

Starshinov's player of the year voting record is also quite "fortunate". The award was created right as Alexandrov/Mayorov were on the decline, and before the KPM generation really hit its stride. Starshinov's Soviet player of the year record from 68-70 falls during a low point in the league in terms of high-end competition at forward (and forwards typically dominated that award voting).

Oh the excuses!

The voting missed some of his peak seasons too; e.g. 1965 when he was selected the best forward (by the Soviets themselves) at the 1965 WHC and 1967 when he won the domestic scoring title. I very much doubt that he would look any worse if they had, as you said, created the award earlier.

I'm not saying that we should take all of Starshinov domestic accolades at face value, but one really has to come up with a lot of assumptions and excuses (and not just one but multiple & which would somehow always work to Starshinov's advantage) to dismiss them. Yes, I can just about believe that they were voting for one center and two wingers (at least in some seasons) on the domestic All-Star team, but 8 All-Star nods in a row would still be a very impressive achievement; a clear sign of his consistency (and probably of his good team play & two-way play).

Summa summarum, we have a player who scored the 2nd most goals in the Soviet [elite] league ever (after Boris Mikhailov), and who also provided exceptional physical play (that even Tarasov was pining for after he was gone) and responsible defensive play. What is the excuse for leaving him off the list for much longer? Because he did not look as pretty/good as many other Soviet forwards and/or that some of his accolades MIGHT BE questionable? To each his own.
I don't know where I'll have him, but probably in the top 4.

PS. Forwards typically dominated the award voting, because the top Soviet forwards typically were better players than the top defencemen, I don't think there's much question about that. The 1970s did really not change things, except that Vasiliev started to get good support from 1973 on (and then arrived Fetisov [and to lesser extent, Kasatonov] in the late 1970s/1980s).

 

[VMBM]

Domestic All-Star Teams

This is where Holik looks really good and Hlinka looks really bad, or do they?

Jiri Holik was All-Star LW in 1969, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, and 1976. Josef Cerny was All-Star LW in 1970 and 1971.

Ivan Hlinka was never All-Star C. All Star Cs during his prime: Vaclav Nedomansky (1971, 1973, 1974), Jaroslav Holik (1972), Milan Novy (1975, 1976, 1977).

Novy was also named Tip Magazine best forward in 1977 and 1978 - yes, Hlinka won the Golden Hockey Stick by a landslide in 1978, but Novy was named Best forward by Tip Magazine.

So the question is - does this make Holik look better? Or did he just face significantly weaker competition than Hlinka, who seems to have been overshadowed by first Nedomansky, then Novy?

I think the all-star teams might have been about the domestic play only (or mainly?); there were sometimes non-national team players on the all-star team, right? If so, well, Novy's domestic career/scoring is in a class by itself, and I doubt that even Martinec would have done so well against Novy, if only domestic play mattered, and if they had been directly head-to-head (e.g. played at the same position).
Yes, I think Holik faced significantly weaker competition than Hlinka. Try to name another great Czechoslovak LW of Holik's time... there are some good ones for sure, but great? And since there have been doubts about the Soviet all-star voting, well, should we take those at face value either?

It´s true that while Holik has longevity and defensive play, Hlinka had immense leadership qualities. He was a natural leader right from the beginning of his career, became captain of Litvínov when he was just 20 years old, became captain of national team after Pospisil in 1978. And his best WC was probably right in Prague 1978 when Czechoslovaks tried to win 3x in row. All-star center and 2nd best in overall scoring when he was just named as a captain proves that Hlinka was the kind of player who thrived under pressure.
He was also leader in next WC finishing 8th in overall scoring. IMO Hlinka, Pospisil and Zabrodsky are the best Czech trio of hockey leaders. Btw. both Hlinka´s and Zabrodsky´s nickname was "šéf" - the boss.

Karel Gut´s description from his encyclopedia:
"Outstanding center who became famous through an individual approach which was enabled to him by his physical disposition of well-built stature and excellent technique with the stick. Personality with a gift to overturn the game, able of creative cooperation. He controlled both technical and hard wrist shot."

Nice description from here:
"Another member of successful generation of 70s and at the same time representative of category 'boss'.
Typical sportsman who pulls others up, hates to lose, encourages others. For ten years Litvínov was built on him, he took the role of captain after František Pospíšil in the national team yet. When things went down, it was Hlinka himself who could turn the game, break the adverse score. Not just with incitement, but also with an act: to score goal, assist on goal, or to create the key play.
He had an ideal high stature for a play of center, however, he was an awesome technician too and he managed to control the puck greatly even in speed. He scored goals, started up actions, could assert only by himself and creatively worked for team as well.
He worked his way up to life form in 1977. He then won a poll of Mladá fronta in a dominant way among all of ten voters. 'Why is he first? I´ll answer with rhetorical question: have we ever had such a forward in the past? said Mikoláš at the time (Josef Mikoláš - famous czech goalie in late 50s and 60s; DN28).
Not just the hockey skills decided in the Hockey player of century poll though. 'I have a thing for Ivan' admitted Karel Gut."

Indeed, both Suchy and Jiri Holik mentions him in their bios as he liked to control or direct everything right from his youth, when he started in national team in 1970 (he was 20 years old). Holik for example mentions that most of powerplay strategies were made up by Hlinka, not by coaches.
_____________________________

And 2nd positive aspect of career that may be overlooked is his NHL career. By the time he arrived to Vancouver (32 years old) he was pretty much done as an elite player in national team and in league too. He had two knee surgeries and chronic back problems which he of course felt during his two seasons overseas.

1981-82: (32 y/o) 72 games (23+37) / 60 points
- playoffs: 12 games (2+6) / 8 points
- overall: 84 games and 68 points

1982-83: (33 y/o) 65 games (19+44) / 63 points
- playoffs: 4 games (1+4) / 5 points
- overall: 69 games and 68 points
- from players that were of the same age or older, only Bobby Clarke scored more points than Hlinka in this season

Thanks for that. I really do like Hlinka and I don't think he should be awfully far from Novy. Unfortunately, Bobrov, Zabrodsky, Sologubov and probably Alexandrov and Starshinov should have gotten on the list already imo and I guess I'll have to rank them above Hlinka.

In the late 1970s, I was very small, but I was already a fan of Soviet hockey, and I definitely 'remember' (it's more like, er, a feeling rather than any concrete memories) Hlinka as a very dangerous player against the Soviets. His stats vs. USSR (especially 1976-79) very much seem to confirm this too.
Regarding that, one thing I like about Hlinka is that he was known as a strong performer against the 'good countries' - not just vs. the Soviets but vs. Sweden too. I think this also helped him to get some all-star votes already at the 1971 WHC (of forwards, 2nd on Team CSSR after Nedomansky!), even though he scored only 5 points (4+1) in 10 games in the tournament.

I'll try to come up with a longer post on Hlinka a little later this week.

 

[Sturminator]

Starshinov was also a noted two-way player. Firsov was probably a better defensive forward than Starshinov - at least more talented - but I very much doubt that Alexandrov was.

The evidence for this claim is scant. The single biggest piece of the case for Starshinov as a defensive ace seems to come from a mistranslation of a Tarasov quote which was actually referring to his physicality.

Starshinov scored 404 goals in the Soviet league and Mayorov 252 goals (source: Finnish hockey book Suuri jääkiekkoteos 2). That is a massive difference. Here are the overall goal-scoring numbers for Starshinov and some of his '60s rivals:

Vyacheslav Starshinov - 537 gp, 404 g, 0.752 GPG
Anatoly Firsov - 474 gp, 339 g, 0.715 GPG
Venyamin Alexandrov - 400 gp, 345 g, 0.862 GPG
Boris Mayorov - 400 gp, 252 g, 0.63 GPG

Ignoring the changing context of the Soviet league in this era (league expansion, wide swings in scoring levels, etc.) and going with career numbers is an extremely flawed form of analysis. Going by the more granular method of tracking scoring vs. the the league leader on a yearly basis paints Starshinov and Mayorov as equals offensively. Starshinov is, at any rate, well behind Alexandrov domestically, internationally, and in terms of enduring reputation.

The voting missed some of his peak seasons too

The voting missed all of A and M's peak seasons. Also, pointing out that there are differences in competitive level over certain periods is not an "excuse"; it is, in fact, a normal part of what we do here.

 

[DN28]

Holik vs. Hlinka vs. Balderis

All-stars (WC, CC):
Holik - 0x
Hlinka - 1x
Balderis - 1x

IIHF´ Best forward award (WC):
Holik - 0x
Hlinka - 0x
Balderis - 1x

Top 1 in scoring (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 0x
Hlinka - 0x
Balderis - 0x

Top 3 in scoring (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 0x
Hlinka - 1x
Balderis - 0x

Top 5 in scoring (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 0x
Hlinka - 3x
Balderis - 0x

Top 10 in scoring (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 2x
Hlinka - 5x
Balderis - 3x

Top 1 in scoring in his own team (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 1x
Hlinka - 1x
Balderis - 0x

Top 3 in scoring in his own team (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 1x
Hlinka - 5x
Balderis - 1x

Top 5 in scoring in his own team (WC, OG, CC):
Holik - 8x
Hlinka - 6x
Balderis - 3x

Domestic point finishes:
Holik - 3., 5., 7., 10., 10. (+ both very good playoffs, finishing 5. in 1973 and 6. in 1971)
Hlinka - 1., 2., 2., 3., 3., 5., 7., 8., 9., 10. (Hlinka didn´t play any playoffs)
Balderis - 1., 1., 2., 3., 3., 4., 6., 7., 9., 10.

MVP voting:
Holik - 2., 2., 3., 4., 6., 7., 8., 8., 10. (+ likely few more top 10 finishes between 1965-1968)
Hlinka - 1., 2., 4., 4., 7., 7., 7., 8., 9.
Balderis - 1., 5., 8., 10. (+ likely top 10 or even top 5 finish in 1979)

 

[VMBM]

The evidence for this claim is scant. The single biggest piece of the case for Starshinov as a defensive ace seems to come from a mistranslation of a Tarasov quote which was actually referring to his physicality.

No need for that. I did not call him defensive ace or anything of the sort, and you know it.

Ignoring the changing context of the Soviet league in this era (league expansion, wide swings in scoring levels, etc.) and going with career numbers is an extremely flawed form of analysis. Going by the more granular method of tracking scoring vs. the the league leader on a yearly basis paints Starshinov and Mayorov as equals offensively. Starshinov is, at any rate, well behind Alexandrov domestically, internationally, and in terms of enduring reputation.

Can we have a little more on that? Namely, I still don't know what you are talking about. It is Starshinov who is clearly the better known player nowadays ('bigger reputation') - as reflected in the fact that he became eligible earlier than Alexandrov in this project. Not that 15 posters on a hockey board is strong evidence, but one can see it elsewhere too. Starshinov played a little longer (including that one lousy game in the 1972 Summit Series), but he was still not truly part of what one could call ''the golden age of Soviet hockey" either.

It is easy to agree that statistically, Alexandrov should be the more revered one. But as far as reputation goes, no, I wouldn't say that.

The voting missed all of A and M's peak seasons. Also, pointing out that there are differences in competitive level over certain periods is not an "excuse"; it is, in fact, a normal part of what we do here.

You're talking almost like Starshinov, Alexandrov and Mayorov were from totally different generations. While Starshinov was the youngest, it is only 2-3 years that separates them in age. I bet that even Starshinov wasn't at his absolute best anymore post-1968, certainly not in 1970 (when he finished 3rd in the SPOTY voting, above Firsov etc).

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Both Aleksandrov and Starshinov were excellent players and it’s no easy task to pick one above the other as they both had great playing careers. Both were multisport athletes, primarily playing hockey in the winters and football (soccer) in the summers. Starshinov also played volleyball, was a gymnast and a boxer.

Aleksandrov played a rather simple and effective type of hockey, a classic winger who seldom made any mistakes. He had really good stick technique and evolved from being a more individualistic player to a good team player with fine versatility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aleksandrov won the league championship something like eleven times. In 1963 he surpassed Vsevolod Bobrov’s 15 year old iconic league record for goals in one season. It’s pretty cool that Aleksandrov’s son later married Bobrov’s daughter.

Toronto Maple Leafs had their eyes on Aleksandrov right after the 1959 World Championships but nothing materialized from it. Later Chicago Blackhawks had him on their negotiation list but nothing materialized from it either. By the way, did Aleksandrov pass away on November 3, November 6 or November 12? (I’ve seen all dates mentioned)


Starshinov was a broad-shouldered center and a fierce competitor. He was a difficult guy to move out of the goal crease and scored the majority of his goals right in front of the goal. He wasn’t the smoothest skater around compared to most of his teammates.

He often played on a line with the Mayorov twins. (Starshinov studied at the Moscow Aviation Institute of Technology together with Boris Mayorov).
What made Starshinov stand out was his physical conditioning. Starshinov never complained and was extremely durable. Tarasov and other trainers used Starshinov as an example to others to follow his work ethic. Starshinov worked extremely hard during the off seasons and practices and was always in top shape. Not surprisingly he later became a professor of physical education.

I think both players had what it took to play in the NHL. I wouldn’t rule out 15 to 20 goals a season with the proper ice time. Personally I have a hard time ranking them, but at this point I probably would have Starshinov slightly ahead of Aleksandrov, but I think the argument could be made for both of them.

 

[Theokritos]

The evidence for this claim is scant. The single biggest piece of the case for Starshinov as a defensive ace seems to come from a mistranslation of a Tarasov quote which was actually referring to his physicality.

In the last thread I provided another Tarasov quote:

In Tarasov's 1974 book Путь к себе ("Path to the Self") there is some interesting hindsight-reasoning about the 1972 Summit Series and how Phil Esposito ("not particularly fast, but battlesome, feisty, with fine technical tools and excellent orientation; he's extremely clever") could be "neutralized". Tarasov sees two options, one of them is to make Esposito play a more defensive game (where he is "far from brilliant") with the Soviet centers Petrov and Maltsev forcing him "to run the extra hundreds of meters" and tiring him out. "But that might not be enough", Tarasov continues: "With the departure of Vyacheslav Starshinov from hockey we are lacking a center forward/halfback who combines a vast physical game, including the accurate execution of defensive tasks, with the ability to attack most pointedly. Petrov is perhaps the closest comparable to the Spartak forward, but he is missing the mass and physical strenght to scare the opponent."

This is the way Tarasov puts it originally in Russian (the passage in red): в том числе четкое исполнение [=including the accurace execution of] защитных функций [=defensive functions]. The translation above is a bit, well, bumpy, but if you check back with your friend Viktor he will confirm that "защитных" (zashchitnykh) is referring to a defensive game. The noun "защитник" (zashchitnik) is literally the word used in Russian for "defenceman". Therefore I think it is safe to say that Tarasov did indeed refer to Starshinov as a two-way forward with notable defensive qualities.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1957

Both Aleksandrov and Starshinov were excellent players and it’s no easy task to pick one above the other as they both had great playing careers. Both were multisport athletes, primarily playing hockey in the winters and football (soccer) in the summers. Starshinov also played volleyball, was a gymnast and a boxer.

Aleksandrov played a rather simple and effective type of hockey, a classic winger who seldom made any mistakes. He had really good stick technique and evolved from being a more individualistic player to a good team player with fine versatility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aleksandrov won the league championship something like eleven times. In 1963 he surpassed Vsevolod Bobrov’s 15 year old iconic league record for goals in one season. It’s pretty cool that Aleksandrov’s son later married Bobrov’s daughter.

Toronto Maple Leafs had their eyes on Aleksandrov right after the 1959 World Championships but nothing materialized from it. Later Chicago Blackhawks had him on their negotiation list but nothing materialized from it either. By the way, did Aleksandrov pass away on November 3, November 6 or November 12? (I’ve seen all dates mentioned)


Starshinov was a broad-shouldered center and a fierce competitor. He was a difficult guy to move out of the goal crease and scored the majority of his goals right in front of the goal. He wasn’t the smoothest skater around compared to most of his teammates.

He often played on a line with the Mayorov twins. (Starshinov studied at the Moscow Aviation Institute of Technology together with Boris Mayorov).
What made Starshinov stand out was his physical conditioning. Starshinov never complained and was extremely durable. Tarasov and other trainers used Starshinov as an example to others to follow his work ethic. Starshinov worked extremely hard during the off seasons and practices and was always in top shape. Not surprisingly he later became a professor of physical education.

I think both players had what it took to play in the NHL. I wouldn’t rule out 15 to 20 goals a season with the proper ice time. Personally I have a hard time ranking them, but at this point I probably would have Starshinov slightly ahead of Aleksandrov, but I think the argument could be made for both of them.

Alex(s)androv was on the Chicago negotiation since as early as the 1957 Soviet tour of Canada:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PIY0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=dKgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=5616,4429044

Birth dates and ages were fluid with the Soviets, as were sweater numbers. All changed from game to game when touring Canada.

That Starshinov boxed is not surprising. Many NHLers boxed as youngsters as part of school militia training, pre WWII, or community center activities. Maurice and Henri Richard. Don Marshall, Red Kelly just part of a long list. Even Guy Lafleur in the eighties boxed as part of stamina training.

 

[Sturminator]

You're talking almost like Starshinov, Alexandrov and Mayorov were from totally different generations. While Starshinov was the youngest, it is only 2-3 years that separates them in age.

It is in those last 2-3 years of Starshinov's peak that the Soviet player of the year award came into being. Surely you understand why it is relevant that he got "peak recognition" for this award while the others didn't because of the small difference in their respective ages?