Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Defensemen)

TheDevilMadeMe

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I did see that.

Very unusual to see 3rd team all-stars.

No one touting Savard, by any chance?

It's recognition that the All-Star teams have an artificial cutoff at the 4th highest voted defenseman in the league. In highly competitive eras (like the late 70s), finishing 5th or 6th in All Star voting can be as good (or theoretically better) as finishing 3rd or 4th in All Star voting and getting an official 2nd team All Star in a weaker era.

As for Savard, he isn't in my top 5. I'm probably going to rank Bill Quackenbush and Black Jack Stewart over him. But he isn't at the bottom of my list, either.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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It's recognition that the All-Star teams have an artificial cutoff at the 4th highest voted defenseman in the league. In highly competitive eras (like the late 70s), finishing 5th or 6th in All Star voting can be as good (or theoretically better) as finishing 3rd or 4th in All Star voting and getting an official 2nd team All Star in a weaker era.

As for Savard, he isn't in my top 5. I'm probably going to rank Bill Quackenbush and Black Jack Stewart over him. But he isn't at the bottom of my list, either.

Agree with the bolded
 

Theokritos

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It's recognition that the All-Star teams have an artificial cutoff at the 4th highest voted defenseman in the league.

Isn't every cutoff artificial? What's natural about voting the best 60 defenceman and not the best 50 or 70? Or the best 100 players ever? Why 100? It's a nice number, nothing more. Top 5 in scoring or top 10 in scoring? Why not top 4 or top 7 or top 12 or top whatever?
 

tarheelhockey

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Isn't every cutoff artificial? What's natural about voting the best 60 defenceman and not the best 50 or 70? Or the best 100 players ever? Why 100? It's a nice number, nothing more. Top 5 in scoring or top 10 in scoring? Why not top 4 or top 7 or top 12 or top whatever?

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the point of "3rd AS" is simply to provide a greater range of information. Sort of like how it would help us now to know Dick Irvin Sr's top 10 defensemen list, but it would help a lot more to know his top 30.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the point of "3rd AS" is simply to provide a greater range of information. Sort of like how it would help us now to know Dick Irvin Sr's top 10 defensemen list, but it would help a lot more to know his top 30.

Exactly. The goal is to figure out how good these guys are, not how many official awards they have (which anyone can see pretty easily).
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Bill Quackenbush

In my opinion, Quackenbush is probably the best of the new choices this round. He's not as good as Bill Gadsby, but I think he's the next best defenseman available from the Original 6 period. Here's a brief summary of his credentials:
  • Quackenbush led all defensemen in All-Star voting in 1948 and 1949. To me, that's the equivalent of 2 Norris Trophies.
    • He was also a 2nd Team All Star in 1947
  • Unlike Jack Stewart, Quackenbush was an All Star into the early 1950s, when competition was much higher than in the 1940s.
    • Quack was a 1st Team All Star in 1951 alongside Red Kelly.
    • Quack was a 2nd Team All Star in 1953, after Kelly and Harvey, but with more votes than a young Bill Gadsby
  • Consistent recognition as a top player: Quackenbush was selected to play in the All-Star Game every season from 1947 to 1954, all of them based on merit.
  • Very good at both ends of the rink. Hardyvan earlier compared Quackenbush's offense to Brian Rafalski and I think that seems fair. But Quackenbush had a reputation to be even better defensively than he was offensively (something that nobody would ever say about Rafalski).
  • Excellent defensively without taking penalties.
  • Quackenbush accomplished all this, while playing a style of hockey that wasn't particularly suited for his day: In that era of hockey, it was unusual for nonphysical players to be successful at any position, let alone as a defenseman. I would also guess that his nontraditional style of play didn't do him any favors when it came time to vote for Postseason All Star Teams.

Here's a full profile of Quackenbush (most of the research done by seventieslord and EagleBelfour):
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=30679412&postcount=37

From the profile, here are some stats on just how great Quackenbush's ability to avoid penalies was:
  • Quackenbush went 131 straight games without drawing a penalty, from 1948 to 1950
  • He won the Lady Byng in 1949 with 52 of 54 1st place votes (also finished 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th in voting). The only other defenseman to ever win the Byng was Red Kelly (who was mentored by Quackenbush).
  • With a ratio of 0.12 PIMs per game, Quackenbush is far and away the least penalized defenseman of history

And remember, Quack managed to avoid penalties while still arguably being the best defensive defenseman in the league.
 
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tony d

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I always liked Quackenbush, one of the better defenseman of the early days of the Original 6 era. I wouldn't rank him #1 of all the guys left but he's close to the top.
 

Canadiens1958

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Serge Savard

I did see that.

Very unusual to see 3rd team all-stars.

No one touting Savard, by any chance?

A few words about Serge Savard. The ice time and voting for AST and other honours on teams with multiple elite defensemen gets split to the detriment of each.

Pre injuries Serge Savard won the Conn Smythe during his second full NHL season - 1968-69, along the way outplaying Bobby Orr in the 1969 Boston/Canadiens series. Few players outplayed Bobby Orr. Of the present candidates only Scott Niedermayer has a Conn Smythe to his name.

1967-68 thru 1980-81 the Canadiens with Serge Savard on defence allowed the fewest GA during 7 seasons. 4 seasons featured Ken Dryden as the goalie but three 1967-68,1968-69, 1980-81 featured a goalie rotation. By comparison the Canadiens with Doug Harvey on defence led the NHL in GA during 5 seasons.

When Serge Savard went to Winnipeg for the 1981-82 season he joined a team that had finished dead last in GA. Even though he missed almost half the season the Jets GA improved to 10th, as the team allowed 68 fewer goals.

1972 Summit Series. In the three games Savard did not play the Soviets scored 17 goals. In the 5 games Savard played - 4W/0L/1T the Soviets scored 15 goals.

Serge Savard member of 7 SC winning teams.

The other defensemen being considered may have the honours but not the results.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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A few words about Serge Savard. The ice time and voting for AST and other honours on teams with multiple elite defensemen gets split to the detriment of each.

Pre injuries Serge Savard won the Conn Smythe during his second full NHL season - 1968-69, along the way outplaying Bobby Orr in the 1969 Boston/Canadiens series. Few players outplayed Bobby Orr. Of the present candidates only Scott Niedermayer has a Conn Smythe to his name.

1967-68 thru 1980-81 the Canadiens with Serge Savard on defence allowed the fewest GA during 7 seasons. 4 seasons featured Ken Dryden as the goalie but three 1967-68,1968-69, 1980-81 featured a goalie rotation. By comparison the Canadiens with Doug Harvey on defence led the NHL in GA during 5 seasons.

When Serge Savard went to Winnipeg for the 1981-82 season he joined a team that had finished dead last in GA. Even though he missed almost half the season the Jets GA improved to 10th, as the team allowed 68 fewer goals.

1972 Summit Series. In the three games Savard did not play the Soviets scored 17 goals. In the 5 games Savard played - 4W/0L/1T the Soviets scored 15 goals.

Serge Savard member of 7 SC winning teams.

The other defensemen being considered may have the honours but not the results.

Nice post about Savard, his award voting definitely seems to sell him short.

As a quick note, Brian Leetch is another player still available that has won the Conn Smythe trophy.
 

overpass

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Here are some quotes from Ken Dryden's hockey classic The Game on his teammates Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe.

If you want a team to be cool and unflappable, you need at least one Savard, to reassure you, to let you know that the time and the team needed to do what you want are still there. If you want a team to be able to lift a game, to find an emotional level higher than any oppo-nent can find, you need players like Lapointe and Tremblay, mercurial players who can take it there.

Dryden wrote in more detail about Lapointe than Savard. Lapointe was a personality, and Dryden seemed to be fascinated by him. In addition to chronicling Lapointe's practical jokes and off-ice personality, he wrote the following:

In the early and mid 1970s, except for Bobby Orr, Guy Lapointe was the best defenseman in the NHL. He was strong and powerful, an explosive skater with a hard, low shot, but what made him unique was the emotion he could bring to a game. During flat, lifeless stretches, uncalculated, he would suddenly erupt with enormous impatient fury, racing around the ice, daring and inspired on offense and defense, giving the game a new mood; turning it our way. It is a rare ability, and even as Potvin and Robinson matured in mid-decade to push him onto second all-star teams and beyond, it was a skill that even they couldn’t match. Only recently, with accumulating age and injury, has some of that fire gone out.

When I think of Lapointe, I think of three games. The first, in 1976, was the fifth game of the Stanley Cup semi-finals against the Islanders. We were ahead three games to one, having won the decisive fourth game in New York, and were back in Montreal to finish the series. The game began slowly, both teams playing as if it were only a formality. The Islanders, then a young, emerging team, seemed intimidated by the task before them, and waited for the game to take shape—as we did, apparently believing that our accumulated reputation, home ice advantage, and series lead would give us the win. Early in the second period, drifting in a tie, the game was there equally for either team to take. The Islanders continued to wait; it was Lapointe, not Potvin, angry and impatient, who finally took hold of the puck and with it the game. We scored two quick goals, and by the end of the second period, the game and the series were suddenly over.

A year later, we played against the Islanders again. We had lost the fifth game in Montreal in overtime, and we played the sixth game in New York, ahead 3-2 in the series. Lapointe had missed nearly half the season with injuries and illness, and had struggled in the playoffs, playing poorly in the overtime game. In the sixth game, however, he was brilliant. While it is usual, indeed expected, that a defenseman will block shots at least occasionally, Lapointe prefers not to. He did it at times earlier in his career, but less often in recent years and with more injuries that year, less often still. And whenever he did block a shot, whether from accident or mindless desperation, he would always follow it with the same routine slowly getting to his skates, wincing painfully, limping in a way that said he was finished for the game, moving imperceptibly towards the bench, looking at Bowman, wanting to go off; seeing Bowman turn and look away. But Bowman knew that when the puck was dropped, Lapointe would play as if nothing had happened. That night he blocked several crucial shots—intentionally—and we won 2-1.

Lapointe might be a player for whom the regular season statistics are somewhat deceiving, because he saved his best for the playoffs. At the very least, we know he saved his shot-blocking for the playoffs.

Dryden also had a bit on Bobby Orr and his influence on the position of defence that is definitely worth reading. See the last two paragraphs on how he changed the way the position was played.

Then there was Orr.

It is not easy for a hockey player to dominate a game. A goalie, any goalie, can make a bad team win or a good team lose, he can dominate a result, but that is not the same thing. He cannot dominate a game, because, separate from the action of a game, he is not quite part of it. In basketball, one man can dominate: usually a big man—Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Bill Walton, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar—able to play most of the game’s forty-eight minutes, and, as with any goalie, it might be any big man. It comes with the position.

But in hockey, seventeen players are rotated more or less equally five at a time, and rarely does anyone play much more than half a game. A forward or defenseman, a special forward or defenseman, might with unusual frequency find the right moment in a game and make a play that will swing a result. But for too long periods of time, the game goes on without him, and his impact can rarely be sustained. In the 1970s, only two players could dominate a game. One was Orr, the other Bobby Clarke. Clarke, a fierce, driven man, did it by the unrelenting mood he gave to a game, a mood so strong it penetrated his team and stayed on the ice even when he did not. Orr did it another way.

Great players have skills that set them apart. Virtuoso skills—Hull’s shot, Lafleur’s quickness, Frank Mahovlich’s power and grace—skills that separate them from their opponents and from the game, but also from teammates less able. It is a platitude of sports that a great player makes everyone around him better, but when it is true, the effect is often just spillover and coincidental. Indeed, more commonly it works the other way—the great player has everyone around him to make him better. When a superstar comes onto the ice or onto a playing field, a game changes and is drawn to him. It is he who is at the center of the action, commanding it, directing it, his teammates little more than courtiers or spectators, their initiative sapped, their skills seconded. It is no petulant power play of a selfish superstar, it is the force and magnetism of his skills that have this effect. It is why great players rarely work well together (there can only be one ball or one puck at a time), and are more effective with players of complementary and subservient skills—and so Cashman becomes Esposito’s cornerman, Jim Braxton O. J. Simpson’s blocker. Orr was the profound exception.

Perhaps it was because he lined up as a defenseman. Set back a few feet from the game with the time and perspective that offered, he
could watch it, “taking pictures” as Bowman would say of him, finding its pattern, its rhythm, then at a moment he could choose, accelerate
into its midst to turn two-man attacks into three, three into four. Orr was a brilliant skater, fast, quick, wonderfully maneuverable. While
the speed of Hull, Mahovlich, and Lafleur, as forwards, often isolates them from teammates who cannot keep up, and robs them of the time necessary for effective combination play, as a defenseman, Orr gave his teammates a head start. With more ice in front of him, Orr could play
full out, using all his special skills, and never lose contact. From behind, he could shape the game. He could see where it might go,
then with no forward’s lanes to hold him back, he could take it there: pushing teammates, chasing them, forcing a pace higher than many
thought they could play, supporting them with passes, bursting ahead, leading them, forcing them to rise to his game, always working with
them. From behind, with several defenders in front of him, he needed his teammates, who in turn needed his extraordinary passing and intuitive skills to bring out their skills to make him better, in turn to make them better. It was what made him unique. By making everyone a contributor, he made everyone feel part of his own success, of their success. From last place to a Stanley Cup in four years, it could only happen because, as catalyst and driving force, Orr brought the Bruins along with him.

He was the rare player who changed the perceptions of his sport. Until Orr, defensemen had been defenders, usually stocky and slow-footed, their offensive game complete when the puck had cleared the defensive zone. Even so-called “rushing defensemen” in pre-Orr times, Red Kelly, Tim Horton, and others, rarely went much beyond the center line, moving up only as a forward moved back, dropping out of the play as soon as they made their first pass. It was Orr who broke down the barriers separating offense and defense. Lining up as a defenseman, when the puck dropped, he became a “player,” his game in instant and constant transition, until with no real transition at all, neither defenseman nor forward, both defender and attacker, he attacked to score and keep from being scored against; he defended to prevent goals and create chances to score. It was what soccer commentators would call a “total” game, what we knew as hockey of the future, and it became the model for all defensemen to follow.

Earlier this season, after six operations on his left knee, after nine seasons spanning thirteen years, Orr retired. He has left defence a much-changed position. He has given it new perceptions, a new attitude that makes further change easier; but he left no heirs. The best of his contemporaries—Robinson, Potvin, Lapointe, Park, Salming—have tried at times to emulate him, but without the prodigious skating and puck-handling skills necessary for his all-ice, all-out, all-the-time game, they have settled back, never completely, not quite comfortably, into something more measured, more restrained. It is what works best for them. The style that was the style of the future remains very much that.

Dryden wrote this before Wayne Gretzky reached the NHL; otherwise he would certainly have mentioned Gretzky in the section about how superstars affect their teammates.
 
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overpass

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I actually wonder one thing about Rod Langway : Does he significantly change the Habs fortunes in the '80ies, if he remains with the Habs and actually take the roster spot of Rick Green?

My thesis : Absolutely not.

I don't think so either. Without taking anything away from what Langway did in Washington, I'd say that the trade was a very good opportunity for him.

I expect there was a bit of a difference in how Langway was viewed by American and Canadian hockey fans and writers. It would be interested to see the difference in voting by nationality from the writers on the awards. I haven't done a lot of reading on this, but it struck me that the glowing tributes to Rod Langway in Washington I had seen were from American sources. And I know the way we Canadians think about star players demanding trades out of Canada...let alone star American players.

American viewpoint: Langway was a homegrown American star player who came to the nation's capital and completely turned their hockey team around as the ultimate leader, defender, and team player.

Canadian viewpoint: Langway was a selfish American star player who demanded a trade out of Canada because he was greedy.

Actually, was Langway the first American star player in the post-expansion era? Mark Howe was right there with him, but Howe was in a bit of a different situation as the son of a Canadian NHL star.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Here are some quotes from Ken Dryden's hockey classic The Game on his teammates Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe.



Dryden wrote in more detail about Lapointe than Savard. Lapointe was a personality, and Dryden seemed to be fascinated by him. In addition to chronicling Lapointe's practical jokes and off-ice personality, he wrote the following:



Lapointe might be a player for whom the regular season statistics are somewhat deceiving, because he saved his best for the playoffs. At the very least, we know he saved his shot-blocking for the playoffs.

Dryden also had a bit on Bobby Orr and his influence on the position of defence that is definitely worth reading. See the last two paragraphs on how he changed the way the position was played.



Dryden wrote this before Wayne Gretzky reached the NHL; otherwise he would certainly have mentioned Gretzky in the section about how superstars affect their teammates.

The Game. The very best hockey book I have read.
 

MXD

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And I know the way we Canadians think about star players demanding trades out of Canada...let alone star American players.

American viewpoint: Langway was a homegrown American star player who came to the nation's capital and completely turned their hockey team around as the ultimate leader, defender, and team player.

Canadian viewpoint: Langway was a selfish American star player who demanded a trade out of Canada because he was greedy.

Ehhh... I wouldn't qualify Langway a star before he left Montreal. C1958 might have better infos than I do on this (I was quite young when Langway left).

Otherwise... yeah, pretty much the same insight than me in regards to this situation. The Langway trade greatly helped the Caps, Langway, while it didn't affect the Habs much in the big picture, as they replaced their all-star checking center with a secondary scoring 2-way center (when they had an even better checking center at this point), sent something of a very good journeyman defensive D (who was nonetheless a +142 in his last two seasons as a Hab) in order to get a very good (but oft-injured) journeyman defensive D, and sent packing an American poised-to-become-a-star D when they had a clearly superior American-poised-to-become-a-star in the waiting.

And there was no way the Habs were a better team than the dynastic Isles or Oilers anyways.

But in the good ole' days, they would have got a 1st rounder for Craig Laughlin.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I don't think so either. Without taking anything away from what Langway did in Washington, I'd say that the trade was a very good opportunity for him.

I expect there was a bit of a difference in how Langway was viewed by American and Canadian hockey fans and writers. It would be interested to see the difference in voting by nationality from the writers on the awards. I haven't done a lot of reading on this, but it struck me that the glowing tributes to Rod Langway in Washington I had seen were from American sources. And I know the way we Canadians think about star players demanding trades out of Canada...let alone star American players.

American viewpoint: Langway was a homegrown American star player who came to the nation's capital and completely turned their hockey team around as the ultimate leader, defender, and team player.

Canadian viewpoint: Langway was a selfish American star player who demanded a trade out of Canada because he was greedy.

Actually, was Langway the first American star player in the post-expansion era? Mark Howe was right there with him, but Howe was in a bit of a different situation as the son of a Canadian NHL star.

Langway is the only player I've seen dominate a game strictly from the defensive end. Many here are looking at the numbers and trying to say in a nice way (or not so nice) that he really didn't deesrve the honors he got. I wish you all could have seen him play.
 

MXD

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Thoughts before voting!

The final order is not yet established, but I still have some thoughts...

- Mark Howe was the highest newcomer in my list and, with the exception of a mistake, the highest available player in my original list. Questions were indeed raised. He's looking for a Top-5 spot in my list, though he might not be the 1st.

- Is this the first round where we see more than one european player getting in, as well as the first round where the first non-nhl gets in? Maybe. Salming and Vasiliev are IMO extremely close one to another and a looking for a spot between 2nd and 5th.

- Another plausible candidate for no.1 is Bill Gadsby. While he was completely relevant for "the other round", I think his resume as a whole makes him a prime candidate for a Top-3 spot.

- Serge Savard will be ahead of Guy Lapointe in my list. Nevermind what they said : the mark of the Habs dynasty -- as well as most of the dynasties anyways -- is that each of its elements recognize -- or even, priorize (prioritize...?!) -- what other elements brings. Besides, nobody even thought that Lapointe was more used on the Special Teams because Robinson and Savard were better 5 on 5 players? I mean, you can't have Savard play 45 minutes a night on a seasonal-basis, right?

- Some things just... elude my mind. Having the Detroit Top-2 available for voting at least a whole round before the Montreal Top-2 is one of them. I can understand this has been made possible by having Quackenbush and Stewart, like, 31st and 32nd, with Bouchard and Reardon ending up in the 33th and 34th spot. (or something to that effect, but you see the point). The worst is -- while Quackenbush doesn't make my Top-5 at this point, I think he belongs in a tier just below, as opposed to Stewart. Even worst is, according to my list, Bouchard wouldn't even be available next round. Stewart is a name I see which basically tells me : " something went wrong". Basically like Brian Leetch three rounds ago, but a bit less worse. I think they (Quackenbush and Stewart) weren't even the best former Wings who aren't ranked yet.

- Speaking of Quackenbush, we shouldn't look badly at his Boston stint : Boston got worse after he came in, but the whole team -- especially goaltending -- got worse as well. That's an argument that might be useful for Frank Brimsek's case, though. Was there an argument about Quack's play in the playoffs? On face value, it seems downright unimpressive...

- Speaking of Leetch -- longevity (... or at least, quality of longevity), he just doesn't look that great when compared to Niedermayer. In all honesty, Leetch trumps Nieds as far as peak is concerned, but again, there's something to be said about a guy who has really a distinct peak, then a post-prime period. In some cases (... Bobby Orr), it doesn't matter, but Leetch's no Orr. In all cases, Leetch deserves to be ahead of Nieds.

- I said all I had to say about Clapper previously.

- Langway?... Bleh. Looking a bit too much at his Norris resume seems a bit revisionnist, but considering he has the worst offensive input in this round (... I mean, it's either him or Stewart), while not being necessarily the best defensive player, isn't.

- From my original list...

+ Highest unavailable player is 22nd. Chances are, that guy goes staight 1st next round, or whenever he becomes available for voting, pretty much no matter what happens. (Sorry if that might look like a lack of consideration for what you're all writing...) (No, it's not Ken Reardon)
+ The guy I ranked 25th was a mistake --- would probably have been something between 35th and 40th.
+ Then it goes : 28th, 29th, 31st, 32nd, 33th.
+ Lowest player available for voting : 46th.
+ Highest player available for voting : 20th. In retrospective, that player should've been a few spots below.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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- Speaking of Quackenbush, we shouldn't look badly at his Boston stint : Boston got worse after he came in, but the whole team -- especially goaltending -- got worse as well. That's an argument that might be useful for Frank Brimsek's case, though. Was there an argument about Quack's play in the playoffs? On face value, it seems downright unimpressive...

Quack never won the Cup, but he lost in the finals 4 times - 1945, 1948, and 1949 with Detroit, and 1953 with Boston. Kind of the Dick Irvin of defensemen? He led the playoffs in scoring by defensemen once and finished 3rd in playoff scoring by a defenseman 3 times, which seems neither good or bad to me, relative to his regular season stats. I haven't read any anecdotes about how he played in the playoffs, good or bad.

- Speaking of Leetch -- longevity (... or at least, quality of longevity), he just doesn't look that great when compared to Niedermayer. In all honesty, Leetch trumps Nieds as far as peak is concerned, but again, there's something to be said about a guy who has really a distinct peak, then a post-prime period. In some cases (... Bobby Orr), it doesn't matter, but Leetch's no Orr. In all cases, Leetch deserves to be ahead of Nieds.

Leetch kills Niedermayer in longevity as an elite player. His prime was longer - 8 or 10 years for Leetch (depending on if you want to start when he was a 1st Team Rookie or a postseason All-Star for the first time) vs. 3 or 4 years for Niedermayer (depending on whether you want to give Nieds credit for the lockout).

And Leetch's overall career was slightly longer - he retired at 37 years old after having played 1263 games. Niedermayer retired at 36 after having played 1205 games.

I'm a little concerned with Mark Howe's lack of durability, to be honest.
 

overpass

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I'm a little concerned with Mark Howe's lack of durability, to be honest.

I'll make the same argument I made for Chris Pronger. Mark Howe played every one of his team's 92 playoff games from 1980 through 1993. He missed a game in 1994 and only played 3 games in 1995, but at his age I'm not sure if he was injured or a healthy scratch.

On the other hand, unlike Pronger, his regular season durability may have hurt his team.

Years in which Howe's team missed the playoffs, and his games played in those regular seasons:

1980-81: 63 GP. Howe was having an excellent season, was badly injured, came back but he had lost a lot of weight and wasn't the same. Hartford missed the playoffs by 11 points, they were pretty bad anyway. The Whalers were 13-15-7 up to and including the game in which he was injured, and 8-26-11 after that.

1981-82: 76 GP: Howe had a bit of an off-year, possibly still not recovered from his injury. Hartford missed the playoffs by 22 points.

1989-90: 40 GP. Philadelphia missed the playoffs by 2 points. Ouch.

1990-91: 19 GP. Philadelphia missed the playoffs by 3 points. Ouch again.

1991-92: 42 GP. Philadelphia missed the playoffs by 12 points (The Patrick Division was tough that year.)

Especially since we're looking at Howe as a defenceman, those three seasons from 90-92 where Howe only played 101 of 240 games are an issue.

Edit: Since hockey-reference has game logs starting in 1987-88, it's fairly easy to do a with/without analysis on Howe in his injury-plagued seasons.

Mark Howe - With or Without You, 1987-88 to 1991-92

Season | With/Without | GP | W | L | T | W% | GF | GA | GF/G | GA/G
1987-88 | With MH | 75 | 37 | 29 | 9 | 0.553 | 272 | 266 | 3.63 | 3.55
1987-88 | Without MH | 5 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 0.200 | 20 | 26 | 4.00 | 5.20
1988-89 | With MH | 52 | 24 | 24 | 4 | 0.500 | 196 | 182 | 3.77 | 3.50
1988-89 | Without MH | 28 | 12 | 12 | 4 | 0.500 | 111 | 103 | 3.96 | 3.68
1989-90 | With MH | 40 | 17 | 18 | 5 | 0.488 | 142 | 128 | 3.55 | 3.20
1989-90 | Without MH | 40 | 13 | 21 | 6 | 0.400 | 148 | 169 | 3.70 | 4.23
1990-91 | With MH | 19 | 11 | 7 | 1 | 0.605 | 72 | 57 | 3.79 | 3.00
1990-91 | Without MH | 61 | 22 | 30 | 9 | 0.434 | 180 | 210 | 2.95 | 3.44
1991-92 | With MH | 42 | 21 | 18 | 3 | 0.536 | 143 | 134 | 3.40 | 3.19
1991-92 | Without MH | 38 | 11 | 19 | 8 | 0.395 | 109 | 139 | 2.87 | 3.66
Total | With MH | 186 | 89 | 78 | 19 | 0.530 | 682 | 633 | 3.67 | 3.40
Total | Without MH | 134 | 48 | 67 | 19 | 0.429 | 459 | 508 | 3.43 | 3.79

No surprise that the Flyers were much better with their #1 defenceman in the lineup. They were better both offensively and defensively, with a slightly larger impact on the defensive side.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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When comparing Howe to Quackenbush (who I think was a similar player in a lot of ways), I just find Howe's injury history an issue.

Of course, Howe's injuries are already counted in his All-Star record (3 1st Teams, 0 2nd Teams, 2 "3rd Teams"). 8 All Star Games for Quack, 4 for Howe (I'm sure HOwe would have gone to more if he were healthier more often, and I realize that Howe played in a much more competitive era, but..
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Leetch kills Niedermayer in longevity as an elite player. His prime was longer - 8 or 10 years for Leetch (depending on if you want to start when he was a 1st Team Rookie or a postseason All-Star for the first time) vs. 3 or 4 years for Niedermayer (depending on whether you want to give Nieds credit for the lockout).

And Leetch's overall career was slightly longer - he retired at 37 years old after having played 1263 games. Niedermayer retired at 36 after having played 1205 games.

I'm a little concerned with Mark Howe's lack of durability, to be honest.

First... It depends on your perception of Leetch's post-prime. Nieds was still a 1st D-Men in the NHL, and would have been 1st pairing material on pretty much every during his post-prime.

Leetch? Well, at times, you wonder he if should have been anything more than a PP specialist at the end.

As far as injuries go... Well, again, it depends. If the guy still gets AST berths and Norris votes, inspite of his injuries, then don't bother : he was what he was with his injuries, imagine if he wasn't injured.

Mark Howe might not be the best "case" of "what if" caused by injuries, because it actually hampered him and that he was probably never the best D in the league anyways (...that was Bourque).
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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First... It depends on your perception of Leetch's post-prime. Nieds was still a 1st D-Men in the NHL, and would have been 1st pairing material on pretty much every during his post-prime.

Leetch? Well, at times, you wonder he if should have been anything more than a PP specialist at the end.

I agree that Niedermayer was better "post-prime" - for that two and a half seasons. But what about the fact that Leetch scored 71 points in his rookie season, and was an All-Star by his 3rd season?

Niedermayer got an (IMO) underserved 2nd Team at the age of 24 during what was by far the best offensive season of his 20s. Then he wasn't an All-Star again until he won the Norris at 30 years old.

Leetch was an early bloomer then flamed out, Niedermayer a late bloomer. But Leetch bloomed brightly for much longer.

As far as injuries go... Well, again, it depends. If the guy still gets AST berths and Norris votes, inspite of his injuries, then don't bother : he was what he was with his injuries, imagine if he wasn't injured.

I totally agree with you here. Injuries are the only reason Mark Howe had an All-Star record comparable to Scott Niedermayer. But he still had those injuries.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,842
16,586
Quack never won the Cup, but he lost in the finals 4 times - 1945, 1948, and 1949 with Detroit, and 1953 with Boston. Kind of the Dick Irvin of defensemen? He led the playoffs in scoring by defensemen once and finished 3rd in playoff scoring by a defenseman 3 times, which seems neither good or bad to me, relative to his regular season stats. I haven't read any anecdotes about how he played in the playoffs, good or bad.
.

His production is somewhat worrying.

I know that offensive production of a 40ies D-Men can be somewhat tricky, as D-Men were notoriously low-scoring at that time.

His scoring would rank pretty much on par with Jack Stewart and Emile Bouchard, while being below guys like Jimmy Thomson (who isn't exactly Top-60, but pretty close IMO) and Glen Harmon (whom I'd be extremely surprised if he received a single vote for Top-80).

Again, those numbers are somewhat hard to analyse, due to the nature of D's and to somewhat small sample size.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,842
16,586
So it only mattered what they did post-prime? What about the fact that Leetch came into the NHL a borderline star and was an All-Star by his 3rd season?

Niedermayer got an (IMO) underserved 2nd Team at the age of 24 during what was by far the best offensive season of his 20s. Then he wasn't an All-Star again until he won the Norris at 30 years old.
.

Obviously, a peak Leetch was better than a peak Nieds...
And I wouldn't call Nieds 2nd AST completely undeserved... I mean, we didn't had the benefit to witness Tommy Anderson's Hart or Harry Howell's Norris, but must still considered both won those awards.

I mean, damn, I would have taken Nieds at 24 as the Habs 1st D anytime at that point. But... yeah, he wasn't exactly what he would be and not really the best D on his team, but it's not like we don't know that Stevens was a rock at this point.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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Obviously, a peak Leetch was better than a peak Nieds...
And I wouldn't call Nieds 2nd AST completely undeserved... I mean, we didn't had the benefit to witness Tommy Anderson's Hart or Harry Howell's Norris, but must still considered both won those awards.

I mean, damn, I would have taken Nieds at 24 as the Habs 1st D anytime at that point. But... yeah, he wasn't exactly what he would be and not really the best D on his team, but it's not like we don't know that Stevens was a rock at this point.

Well no, Nied's 2nd Team all star in 1998 was no worse than a lot of the other 2nd Team All Stars of the era that were based off stats (it was a lot better than Gonchar's 2nd Team for being a PP specialist). But there is absolutely no way that Niedermayer was even the best defenseman on his own team by that point - but he put up lots of points playing against second rate competition while Stevens took the tough competition, and he was very visible in the 1998 Olympics, so he gets it.

And it's not just that peak Leetch was better, it's that his peak lasted 2-3 times as long.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
His production is somewhat worrying.

I know that offensive production of a 40ies D-Men can be somewhat tricky, as D-Men were notoriously low-scoring at that time.

His scoring would rank pretty much on par with Jack Stewart and Emile Bouchard, while being below guys like Jimmy Thomson (who isn't exactly Top-60, but pretty close IMO) and Glen Harmon (whom I'd be extremely surprised if he received a single vote for Top-80).

Again, those numbers are somewhat hard to analyse, due to the nature of D's and to somewhat small sample size.

Yeah, it's hard to know what to make of Quackenbush's playoff numbers. At first glance, they don't look very impressive, but no defenseman of the era was scoring a lot in the playoffs as you said. And apparently Quack did lead the playoffs in scoring by defensemen once (I'm too lazy to find out when and it was probably a tie for 1st anyway). Defensemen definitely weren't all that involved in the offense then though.
 
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