Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Centers)

[amnesiac]

Vote 4 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Friday, December 6th at 10 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Thursday, December 5th. There is also an optional procedural vote this round - see post 6 - PM your procedural vote to TheDevilMadeMe.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 4 will be for places 17 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

There are 9 eligible candidates for Vote 4. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Max Bentley
Sidney Crosby
Marcel Dionne
Sergei Fedorov
Peter Forsberg
Ted Kennedy
Joe Malone
Henri Richard
Milt Schmidt

No Stastny?

I think Pocket, Dionne, Schmidt, Malone should go here. Id have to look at Bentley again...

 

[Rob Scuderi]

The cutoff is Wednesday night.

Isn't that sort of problematic though? I mean if this project happened during the first half of the 2011 season would people consider him differently than if they were doing it at the end of the year?

I realize it seems silly to pretend we aren't seeing what we are, but I wonder if we can fully put into context a season while it's still going on.

 

[MadArcand]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=821020

Alas, while there's the data for Forsberg, there's only one season of Crosby's in there.

 

[seventieslord]

Isn't that sort of problematic though? I mean if this project happened during the first half of the 2011 season would people consider him differently than if they were doing it at the end of the year?

I realize it seems silly to pretend we aren't seeing what we are, but I wonder if we can fully put into context a season while it's still going on.

I don't see a problem with it. We just call it what it is. 25 more games as the best player in the game.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Alas, while there's the data for Forsberg, there's only one season of Crosby's in there.

What makes you wonder about his share of secondary assists? His wingers haven't been anything special.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What makes you wonder about his share of secondary assists? His wingers haven't been anything special.

"Secondary Sid" is a myth that has been debunked many times on these boards but is still often repeated.

I don't see a problem with it. We just call it what it is. 25 more games as the best player in the game.

Eh, he certainly has a case as the best player in the league so far this year, but he really isn't standing out from several others. I guess that once you consider past performance, you could argue that it's still his crown until he loses it...

 

[seventieslord]

"Secondary Sid" is a myth that has been debunked many times on these boards but is still often repeated.



Eh, he certainly has a case as the best player in the league so far this year, but he really isn't standing out from several others. I guess that once you consider past performance, you could argue that it's still his crown until he loses it...

Those are my thoughts as well.

 

[Sturminator]

Dionne and Richard are probably the only two locks for my top-4 in this round. I'm going to have to give some careful thought as to who I like best out of Schmidt, Kennedy, Forsberg and Malone. I think this is still too early for the others.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dionne and Richard are probably the only two locks for my top-4 in this round. I'm going to have to give some careful thought as to who I like best out of Schmidt, Kennedy, Forsberg and Malone. I think this is still too early for the others.

Is there really a case for Malone over Crosby or Bentley? I mean, Malone is basically something of a Brett Hull of an earlier era, right?

(I also think Dionne is far from a lock, but that shouldn't surprise you)

 

[ted2019]

My top 4 currently.
1. Richard
2. Dionne
3. Schmidt
4. Crosby/Forsberg

I'm open to hear arguments and have changed My vote already due to Them.

 

[matnor]

Regarding primary and secondary assists, these are the numbers for Crosby and Forsberg.

Peter Forsberg

Season | Primary | Secondary | Share primary
1994/95 | 22 | 13 | 62.9%
1995/96 | 62 | 24 | 72.1%
1996/97 | 30 | 28 | 51.7%
1997/98 | 46 | 20 | 69.7%
1998/99 | 40 | 27 | 59.7%
1999/00 | 26 | 11 | 70.3%
2000/01 | 47 | 15 | 75.8%
2002/03 | 41 | 36 | 53.2%
2003/04 | 22 | 15 | 59.5%
2005/06 | 34 | 22 | 60.7%
2006/07 | 25 | 17 | 59.5%
2007/08 | 8 | 5 | 61.5%
--------| ---| ---| --------
Total | 403 | 233 | 63.4%

Sidney Crosby

Season | Primary | Secondary | Share primary
2005/06 | 44 | 19 | 69.8%
2006/07 | 49 | 35 | 58.3%
2007/08 | 33 | 15 | 68.8%
2008/09 | 51 | 19 | 72.9%
2009/10 | 36 | 22 | 62.1%
2010/11 | 20 | 14 | 58.8%
2011/12 | 16 | 13 | 55.2%
2012/13 | 28 | 13 | 68.3%
--------| ---| ---| --------
Total | 277 | 150 | 64.9%

 

[MXD]

"Secondary Sid" is a myth that has been debunked many times on these boards but is still often repeated.

Regardless of debunkage...
Is it me, or that's COMPLETELY irrelevant?

(Considering that we don't have the data for ALL players, and that we'll eventually have to assess once again players who played in leagues in which assists weren't even recorded?)

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

You said it yourself, strictly offensively. But there's much more to it than just points. I don't have the file where I compared the 90s generation in award voting here at home (obviously did that at work ), but when I counted top-5 placements in AST, Hart & Selke votings, Fedorov came just a hair ahead of Forsberg (it basically came to two Selkes vs. two 1st ASTs with not-so-stunning competition, IIRC).

Overall, I have Fedorov very slightly over Forsberg. Crosby? He should be good 10+ spots behind both.

Even being extremely charitable to Fedorov, I don't see how he's ahead of Crosby at this point. Let alone significantly ahead.

 

[seventieslord]

by the way, as far as Fedorov being the worst regular season performer so far.... let's say I'll agree, as long as we mean the worst regular season offensive performer.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The cutoff is Wednesday night.

I was under the impression that we only considering the carers of guy still playing up to and including the last season and playoffs and nothing from this season.

can anyone clarify this, or were you referring to something else?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Yeah Crosby has better PPG... should that matter at all when he hasn't played even measly 500 games?

By the time you have a Hart, a Lindsay (still can't get used to typing that), a Richard, a Cup, a post-season all-star selection, and an Olympic gold medal on your resume, you've got enough career value building up that the number of games played (and interesting PPG tidbits, for that matter) becomes a secondary concern. When you've got multiples of some of those awards, it starts mattering even less. It must be said, though, that as good as Sid's post season record is vs most of his contemporaries, guys like Forsberg and Fedorov have lots of meaningful miles on him there.

But THEN there's the prestige of essentially being regarded as no worse than the 3rd best player in the league at any time over his career so far (it takes reminding sometimes that he is in his 9th season), and consensus best for a good chunk of that... he's hard to rank right now, and I don't envy those with votes.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm surprised that there's much kvetching about primary vs. secondary assists. I'm not sure the fascination with that...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ted Kennedy and Max Bentley

Wikipedia actually has great profiles of both players and I would highly recommend skimming them for anyone unfamiliar with these two players. Following are some excerpts.

Max Bentley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Bentley

Max Bentley was known for his speed, passing and puck handling skills. He learned his trade with his brothers as they constantly played street hockey in the summers and on the ice in the winters. Bentley's father flooded a sheet of ice that was the length of a regulation NHL hockey rink but much narrower, forcing the boys to develop the ability to maintain control of the puck while making fast, hard turns to reach the net.[1] He was nicknamed the "Dipsy Doodle Dandy from Delisle" in reference to his ability to skate around opponents who often found that the only way to stop him was via rough play.[33] Bentley was able to score from nearly any angle, an ability that confounded even his brother Doug.[34] Long-time prairie hockey promoter Bill Hunter said Bentley was "a phenomenal hockey player, an absolute artist with the puck".[35] Opponents occasionally attempted to use Bentley's hypochondria against him, making remarks on how he looked ill in a bid to distract him during the game.[33]
Bentley was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1966, two years after his brother Doug.[35]

Max Bentley, like his brother Doug, often played the point on the power play.

Ted Kennedy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy_(ice_hockey)

In his first season, the 18-year-old finished second on the team in scoring and then in his sophomore year was considered the star of Toronto's upset of the record-breaking Montreal Canadiens of 1944-45. He would establish himself as the leader of the team and became captain in 1948. Although not the best skater in the league, Kennedy was a fierce fore-checker and skilled playmaker

Although Kennedy was not a gifted skater, he compensated with a fierce determination and tireless hard work.[34] Among modern era players his style of play has been compared to Bobby Clarke[35] and Jarome Iginla.[36] Line-mate Howie Meeker said that while he was a much better skater than Kennedy, "He went from A to B just as fast I could because he went through people".[1] Kennedy would prove to be a perfect fit into coach Hap Day's coaching style of emphasizing defense, positional hockey and physical play.[37] He brought to the Leafs a classy, humble leadership[38] and the knack for scoring goals when they were most needed.[39] He would fight for every inch of ice[40] and was difficult to separate from the puck.[38] He was also known for his agility,[41] stick-handling,[42] playmaking,[43] passing skills and physical toughness.[1]

Dick Irvin once compared the styles of Syl Apps, previous captain of the Leafs, to Kennedy in how the two centres used their wingers. "Apps used to hit the defense at top speed and Gordie Drillon would come along and pick up the garbage", said Irvin. Whereas Kennedy would "go into the corners and get the puck out to their wings."[44]... Kennedy was also widely believed to be the best faceoff man in hockey[39][46] and would seldom lose an important faceoff.[47][48] Along with his regular shift, he would also kill penalties.[49]

Playoff performer[edit]
Kennedy had the reputation for excelling in the playoffs.[53][74] He was the first player in NHL history to win five Stanley Cups and by just age 22 he had already won three Stanley Cups .[49] Kennedy holds the Toronto Maple Leafs' all-time record for career points in Stanley Cup finals with 23.[228][229] He is the youngest player in the history of the NHL to have scored a Stanley Cup winning goal when he scored the winning goal of game 6 in 1947 at 21.4 years of age.[230] Until the Pittsburgh Penguins won the Stanley Cup in 2009, with 22-year-old Sidney Crosby as captain, Kennedy shared the honours with Wayne Gretzky as the youngest captains to have won the Cup.[231] In 2001 The Hockey News assembled a panel of five hockey experts to choose the winners of a "would-be" Conn Smythe Trophy, for best playoff performance, had the trophy been awarded prior to the 1964–65 season. Using microfilms of newspapers of the day and studying statistics and quotes from writers and coaches they chose winners from 1917–18 to 1963–64. Of the players chosen more than once, only Kennedy was chosen as many as three times for his playoff performances in 1945, 1947 and 1948.[42] He is fourth all-time in playoff goals and sixth all-time in points for the Maple Leafs[232]

Face-off skills[edit]

His face-off skills were highly regarded and, since during Kennedy's era there were many more face offs than there are today, it was invaluable. The April 27, 1998, issue of Sport Illustrated published "The Best Ever on the Draw", a poll of NHL experts of the top ten players of all time for skills on the faceoff, and Kennedy was ranked at #1.[233] Lloyd Percival once called Kennedy the "Billy the Kid" of hockey.[234] Derek Sanderson, considered the best at faceoffs in the late 60s and 70s, related how his father had him watch Kennedy on the TV to learn the skill.[233] In a 1987 interview Kennedy told a reporter, "I went all-out at face-offs. Your centre is your quarterback and our other guys knew exactly what I was trying to do."[48] In the 1970s, GM of the Leafs, Jim Gregory asked Kennedy if he would help the team to improve their face-off performance. Kennedy agreed but with one stipulation. "This can't involve (just) the centermen. It has to involve all five guys," Kennedy told Gregory and coach Roger Neilson. "Everyone has to be in tune. Everybody has a job to do. This is a team."[235]

If you take the SIHR/HHOF panel's Retroactive Conn Smythes to be equal to actual Conn Smythes (you shouldn't IMO), Kennedy has 3 of them; equal to Patrick Roy for most Conn Smythes all-time.

Here's an excerpt from a ]Dick Carroll column referring to the 1954 playoffs on one time Kennedy did lose his cool, to all-time agitator Tony Leswick. Leswick would call Kennedy "Captain Syl," basically calling Kennedy a wannabee version of Syl Apps (Kennedy took over Apps' captaincy when Apps retired.

With 12 seconds left of the first OT of Game 5 of the 1954 Stanley Cup finals, Leswick and Kennedy were battling for the puck in a corner:

"Hey Captain Syl, Leswick snarled, "I got a present for you."

He hauled back his right fist and belted Kennedy right between the eyes. Kennedy dropped his stick and piled into Leswick. Both were put off for fighting. Detroit didn't score in the remaining 12 seconds, but after a minute and one second of the next overtime period, Ted Lindsay fired the winning goal. Ted Kennedy is the "take charge guy" on the Toronto team and it was disorganized without him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Milt Schmidt

I look forward to a comprehensive comparison of Kennedy and Schmidt. Two more similar players are rarely seen, yet, canon has Schmidt solidly ahead. Why?

I'll just repost this quote from Schmidt's former teammate, Jack Crawford:

You know who was something like the Rocket? Milt Schmidt.

Those three fellows on the Kraut Line were all different in temperament. Woody Dumart would parade up and down his wing all night. He had a placid temperament and it was hard to get him annoyed. Bobby Bauer was a very smart hockey player at right wing. He used to work out plays for the line, and he was the playmaker too. He paid strict attention to his knitting and he hardly ever got a penalty. Why he won the Lady Byng Trophy too.

Milt was the fireball of the line. He was a wonderful skater, a great bodychecker, and a fine all-round player. But he had a temper. Nobody ever gave him the works and got away with it. When a game exploded, Milt was right in the middle of it.

From a skill set perspective, I can see two major differences between Kennedy and Schmidt. Schmidt seems to have been a good skater, while Kennedy was not.

Also, Kennedy was more of a tough but clean player, getting a handful of Lady Byng votes on several occasions, while Schmidt seems more likely to take penalties.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Schmidt, Bentley, and Kennedy Year by Year

Milt Schmidt played from 1936-37 to 1954-55. He missed half of 1941-42 and all of 1942-43, 1943-44, and 1944-45 due to World War 2.

Max Bentley played from 1940-41 to 1953-54. He missed all of 1943-44 and 1944-45 due to World War 2.

Ted Kennedy got in a couple games as a 17 year old in 1943-44 and was a full time player from 1944-45 until 1954-55. He had a brief comeback in 1956-57, where he didn't receive any accolades.

To reduce chart clutter, I am cutting off the years 1937 and 1938: Schmidt was the only one of the three players playing and he doesn't have any accolades until 1939.

Note that we only have the top 2 in All Star voting in 1952 and 1953. There's a VERY good chance that Kennedy would have been in the running for "3rd Team All Stars" those years if we had full data. Theses seasons are indicated with "*?*" We also only have top 3 All Star voting in 1949, but there are only a few missing points; nonetheless I've also indicated Bentley and Kennedy with "?" for that season, as they both had solid seasons.

Year | Schmidt Points | Schmidt PPG | Schmidt Hart | Schmidt AS | Bentley Points | Bentley PPG | Bentley Hart | Bentley AS |Kennedy Points |Kennedy PPG| Kennedy Hart |Kennedy AS
1939 |-|-|-|3| NA | NA | NA | NA |NA|NA|NA|NA
1940 |1|2|4|1| NA | NA | NA | NA |NA|NA|NA|NA
1941 |10|10|-|-| - | - | - | - |NA|NA|NA|NA
1942 |18(WAR)|8|(WAR)|(WAR)| - | 20 | - | - |NA|NA|NA|NA
1943 |WAR|WAR|WAR|WAR| 3 | 2 | - | 3 |NA|NA|NA|NA
1944 |WAR|WAR|WAR|WAR| WAR | WAR | WAR | WAR |20|-|-|-
1945 | WAR|WAR|WAR|WAR| WAR | WAR | WAR | WAR |5|7|7|3
1946 |-|-|-|3| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |-|-|-|-|
1947 |4|4|2|1| 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 |5|6|-|3
1948 |-|-|8|6| 5 | 9 | 4 | 3 |13|13|5|4
1949 |-|-|-|-| 13 | 14 | - | ? |15|16|-|?|
1950 |-|-|5|5| - | - | - | - |17|7|2|2
1951 |4|3|1|1| 3 | 5 | - | 4 |4|4|5|2
1952 |10|12|4|2| 20 | - | - | - |9|10|-|*?*
1953 |-|-|-|-| - | - | - | - |18|-|5|*?*
1954 |-|-|6|-| - | - | - | - |20|-|5|2
1955 |-|-|-|-| RET | RET | RET | RET |11|11|1|3

Observations

• Given Schmidt's reputation as a two-way force, I was very surprised that his only top 20 points finish beyond the top 10s that are easily spotted on hockey-reference was his war-shortened 1941-42.
• Schmidt was the top defensive center on the Bruins prior to WW2, while Cowley probably got the best offensive opportunities. However, Cowley was not a factor after the War.
• I could forgive Schmidt for having a weak 1945-46 after being away from the game of hockey for 3.5 years, and indeed he comes back strong in 1946-47. But after 1947, his career gets really up and down.
• Injuries might be the main reason Schmidt looks up and down after WW2, but isn't it true that Schmidt's take-no-prisoners style of play probably led to his injuries? We'd make the same argument about Forsberg.
• Bentley is a player who didn't provide much another than offense, but what an offensive peak it was. 3rd in scoring in 1943, missed two years due to the war, consecutive Art Ross Trophies in the two years after the War (note that some players still missed parts of 1946, however).
• Bentley got traded in the middle of 1948 to Toronto, where he became their third line center for the rest of the season, then he was their second liner (to Kennedy) after Apps retired following the season. The effects of this trade might be worth exploring further.
• Bentley's regular season offensive stats took a nose dive when he was traded from Chicago to a much stronger Toronto team, but he made up for it by scoring 37 points in 36 playoff games from 1948-1951, outstanding for the time period.
• Kennedy's 1944, 1945, and 1946 regular seasons are basically write-offs as far as I am concerned. Sure, he looked good as a 19 year old in 1945 when most of the best players were off fighting, but he fell back to Earth as a 20 year old when most of them returned the following year.
• On the other hand, 19 year old Kennedy lead the Leafs in an upset victory over the Canadiens in the 1945 playoffs IS noteworthy, as the Canadiens were the one team that was mostly unaffected by the War (Ken Reardon was their only notable absence I think).
• Kennedy does have a nice string of top 20 finishes and All-Star recogntion from 1947-1955, playing for a fairly defensive-minded team.
• Kennedy's Hart Trophy in 1955 was clearly a "career achievement award" given to a guy who had not won an individual award before then and had been a 2nd Team AS three times, but never 1st.

HELP ON INTERPRETING THE ABOVE DATA IS APPRECIATED.

 

[Hardyvan123]

by the way, as far as Fedorov being the worst regular season performer so far.... let's say I'll agree, as long as we mean the worst regular season offensive performer.

Is he really that much worse than Schmidt? I will have to look at it again.

 

[Hardyvan123]

By the time you have a Hart, a Lindsay (still can't get used to typing that), a Richard, a Cup, a post-season all-star selection, and an Olympic gold medal on your resume, you've got enough career value building up that the number of games played (and interesting PPG tidbits, for that matter) becomes a secondary concern. When you've got multiples of some of those awards, it starts mattering even less. It must be said, though, that as good as Sid's post season record is vs most of his contemporaries, guys like Forsberg and Fedorov have lots of meaningful miles on him there.

But THEN there's the prestige of essentially being regarded as no worse than the 3rd best player in the league at any time over his career so far (it takes reminding sometimes that he is in his 9th season), and consensus best for a good chunk of that... he's hard to rank right now, and I don't envy those with votes.

fully agree with this post and trying to wrap my head around his star status and Richard's as a secondary or supporting player on those habs dynasties, albeit a very high one, not in a Glenn Anderson way.

I will probably cop out and put Henri ahead, for no other reason than Sid is still adding to his resume but if for some reason he was done he might actually be high in this round for me, hard to gauge.

How many players have a very legitimate argument for being in the top 3 in the NHL for any length of time over a year or 2 (say 5 years)? Less than a handful I would think.

 

[Killion]

... Also, Kennedy was more of a tough but clean player, getting a handful of Lady Byng votes on several occasions, while Schmidt seems more likely to take penalties.

Well, in 2000, The Hockey News compiled a list of the Top 50 All Time & Schmidt was ranked 27th, Ted Kennedy & others of his era didnt even make the list at all. Ive read variously that Kennedys' skating was in fact "horrendous, horrific, horrible" & so on but that he was indeed a terrific stickhandler, excellent face-off man, prided himself on 2 way play & through sheer determination & force of will clearly got the job done, and not always if ever very pretty whereas Schmidt was a terrific skater, two way as well, but more naturally talented & gifted.

There was a bizarre incident in the 1950 SC Finals between Toronto & Detroit, Game 1, Gordie Howe trying to check Kennedy but because of Teeders wonky ways on his blades Howe somehow missed him, flying headfirst into the boards & being carted off the ice, his career very nearly ending right then & there. I think that was the "thing" in part with Kennedy. Out of step with everyone else and as a result extremely deceptive. A lot stronger on his skates than one wouldve thought. Rather like Dave Tiger Williams perhaps. Just plain Fugly to watch skating but good luck getting him off his feet. So yes, if I had to choose between the two I'd go with Schmidt for just pure skill, but if it was based on tenacity, grit, Id lean more towards Kennedy.... guess that doesnt help you much but there ya go.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

fully agree with this post and trying to wrap my head around his star status and Richard's as a secondary or supporting player on those habs dynasties, albeit a very high one, not in a Glenn Anderson way.

I will probably cop out and put Henri ahead, for no other reason than Sid is still adding to his resume but if for some reason he was done he might actually be high in this round for me, hard to gauge.

How many players have a very legitimate argument for being in the top 3 in the NHL for any length of time over a year or 2 (say 5 years)? Less than a handful I would think.

If Henri Richard was a secondary player on the 60s Canadiens dynasty, then Larry Robinson was a secondary player on the 70s Canadiens dynasty, and Mark Messier and Paul Coffey were secondary players on the Edmonton Oilers dynasty.

Here is a list of every HHOFer on the official 60s dynasty, which won Cups in 1965, 1966, 1968, and 1969:

Jean Beliveau (65, 66, 68, 69)
Henri Richard (65, 66, 68, 69)
Yvan Cournoyer (65, 66, 68, 69)
Dick Duff (65, 66, 68, 69)
Jacques Laperriere (65, 66, 68, 69)
Gump Worsley (65, 66, 68, 69)

Serge Savard (68, 69)
Jacques Lemaire (68, 69)

That's significantly less talent than on any of the NHL's other official dynasties. See This Post for a comparison I made of every official NHL dynasty and the rankings of their players on the 2008 Top 100 list on this board.

Sometimes it seems like this forum punishes Henri Richard for winning too often. I didn't see anyone calling Trottier a "secondary" player on the Islanders dynasty because of Potvin.

 

[SidGenoMario]

I'll just say that if it wasn't for Ray Shero's ineptitude in terms of finding competent wingers, Crosby would have at least 2 more scoring titles. I've never seen an athlete more handcuffed by his teammates in any sport. It's disgusting. {Mod}