Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 8 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 8 points, 2nd place votes worth 7 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 5 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday, December 21. You may PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe starting on Sunday, December 20.

Vote 5 will be for places 17 through 20 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Helmuts Balderis
Vsevolod Bobrov
Jiří Holík
Sven Johansson (Tumba)
Igor Larionov
Milan Nový
Aleksandr Ragulin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Lennart Svedberg
Aleksandr Yakushev

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships 1954-1991

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

Defensemen

Alexander Ragulin (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Nikolai Sologubov (USSR) - included for comparison sake

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Lennart Svedberg (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Frantisek Tikal (CSSR) - included for comparison sake

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1964, 1965)
• All Star Defenseman (1965)

Forwards

Sven "Tumba" Johansson (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Forward (1957, 1962)

Alexander Yakushev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1975)
• All Star Forward (1974, 1975)

Igor Larionov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1983, 1986)

Helmut Balderis

• Directorate Best Forward (1977)
• All Star Forward (1977)

Vsevolod Bobrov

• Directorate Best Forward (1954)
  His career predates the official All-Star Teams, but he seems to have been voted an All-Star by coaches in 1955

Vyacheslav Starshinov

• Directorate Best Forward (1965)

Milan Novy (CSSR)

• All Star Forward (1976)

Jiri Holik was not named Best forward or an All Star at any WHC
____________

Accolades at other major international tournaments. Please let me know if I'm missing something, I checked the Canada Cup All-Stars and the top 10 in scoring at the 1972-present Olympic Games (prior to 1972, the OGs served as the WHCs for that season).

Alexander Yakushev

• Highest scoring Soviet; widely considered the best Soviet forward at the 1972 Summit Series against NHL All-Stars
• Highest scoring Soviet; perhaps the best Soviet forward at the 1974 Summit Series against WHA All-Stars

Milan Novy

• All-Star and Team MVP at the 1976 Canada Cup
• Led 1980 Oympics in scoring

 

[Batis]

Vsevolod Bobrov was never named Best Forward. His career predates the All-Star teams.

Bobrov was named the Best Forward at the 1954 WHC. http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeyarchives/mondial1954.htm

 

[Theokritos]

Bobrov was named the Best Forward at the 1954 WHC. http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeyarchives/mondial1954.htm

Yep. And at the 1955 WHC they already conducted an All-star poll among the coaches of the participating countries. A one-off it seems. The result:

Only a small addition. While ago I founded coaches All-Star selection from 1955 WHC. Seven coaches voted. Poland and Soviets declined to vote. Don´t know how the "alternate" players were selected

Results were
G Don Rigazzio (7)
D Kevin Conway (4)
D Nikolai Sologubov (3)
F Vladimir Zabrodsky (7)
F Bill Warwick (5)
F Vsevolod Bobrov (5)
Alternates
G Ivan McLelland, D George McAvoy, D Alfred Kuchevsky, F Viktor Shuvalov, F Grant Warwick, F Bronislav Danda, F Jack McIntyre, F Sven Tumba, F Vlastimil Bubnik

Ottawa Citizen - Mar 7, 1955
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aYcwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4dwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3903%2C1288449

Directorates choices were G Rigazzio, D Karel Gut, F Bill Warwick. So unanimous in goaltending. Possible underdog bonus for Rigazzio. I would say very common in those choices. Zabrodsky seemed to beat Warwick, but still no huge disagreement there. Biggest difference was that coaches didn´t give love to Karel Gut.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I fixed/updated the Bobrov part

 

[VMBM]

I shall not whine about the non-available players anymore. But Bobrov and Tumba (he was/is known as Tumba rather than as Johansson so he is Tumba for me) finally eligible, yippee!

Lennart Svedberg is the clear 'no-vote' for me in this vote; I don't like Jiri Holik that much either; he has a 'good name' and has one of the longest careers of any player, but it is too early IMO. Well, at least Novy won't be the last this time!

 

[Theokritos]

Initial thoughts:

-I realize it's difficult to give Balderis a fair shake considering his issues with Tikhonov, but when we look at his actual accomplishments then I think he has to rank a tier below Larionov and Yakushev.

-Svedberg vs Ragulin seems like a classic case of peak vs longevity.

-Starshinov is very interesting. Not that much international recognition (I will post something about the 1965 WHC when he won his only award), but he looks good in Soviet Player of the Year voting (2nd, 3rd, 3rd) even though it only covers 3 of his 8 best seasons.

 

[Batis]

At the moment Bobrov is the player that I most likely will rank first in this group. I wish that a certain Czechoslovakian forward of the same era would be available for voting though as I feel that the two should not be separated by much on this list. Here is a post about Bobrovs scoring from the preliminary thread.

One thing that I feel sometimes gets forgotten when speaking about Bobrov is that he played his first full season at age 25 in 47/48 (Bobrov also played 1 game and scored 3 goals in 46/47 at age 24) and that he played in his first international tournament at age 31. The, along with Bobrov, most dominant Soviet scorer domestically Alexei Guryshev was for example two and a half years younger than Bobrov. Which may not sound like much but I personally think that Guryshev being able to play hockey during more years of his prime age is a part of the explanation why Guryshevs domestic scoring record is comparable to Bobrovs or even better than Bobrovs. Another reason is of course that Guryshev was a great scorer but I personally think that if hockey would have been taken up in the Soviet Union 5 years earlier Bobrovs domestic scoring record would have been ahead of Guryshevs.
During the time period when both players were in their 20´s at the same time (47/48-51/52) Bobrov completely dominated the scoring race. Guryshev should get credit for being a better scorer domestically in his 30´s (2 scoring titles) than Bobrov was though.

Soviet scoring from 47/48 to 51/52. Taken from Hockeyarchives.

47/48
1 Vsevolod Bobrov CDKA 52
2 Ivan Novikov Spartak 32
3 Vassili Trofimov Dynamo M 31
4 Zdenek Zigmund Spartak 28
5 Robert Shulmanis Riga 24
6 Anatoli Tarasov CDKA 23
7 Evgeni Babich CDKA 22
8 Nikolaï Postavnin Dynamo M 21
Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 21
10 Vsevolod Blinkov Dynamo M 20

48/49
1 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 29
2 Vsevolod Bobrov CDKA 27
3 Ivan Novikov VVS 23
4 Anatoli Viktorov Dynamo L 22
5 Valentin Zakharov Spartak 20
6 Vassili Trofimov Dynamo M 19
Zdenek Zikmund VVS 19
8 Viktor Shuvalov Chelyab. 18
9 Anatoli Tarasov CDKA 16
Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo M 16

49/50
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS Moscou 36
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS Moscou 27
Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 27
Anatoli Tarasov CDKA 27
5 Zenonas Ganusauskas Spartak 25
6 Vladimir Menshikov CDKA 24
7 Alfons Jegers Riga 23
8 Vladimir Elizarov CDKA 22
9 Franz Lapin Bolchevik 21
Georgi Zhenishek Chelyabinsk 21
Vladimir Novozhikov Spartak 21

50/51
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS 42
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS 28
3 Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo M 21
4 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 20
5 Leonid Stepanov Krylia 13
Viktor Klimovich Dynamo M 13
Evgeni Babich VVS 13
8 Aleksandr Komarov CSKA 12
Valentin Kuzin Dynamo M 12

51/52
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS 37
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS 31
3 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 21
4 Aleksandr Komarov CDSA 21
5 Edgar Bauris Daugava 17

Bobrovs 5-season Vs2 average during this time frame is 133 and he was obviously by far the most dominant scorer in the league during his 20´s. Based on this I think that it is very likely that Bobrov would have had many more dominant seasons if he would have been able to play in his early 20´s too. As further "evidence" to support that theory Bobrov was the scoring champion in the Soviet Top League in Football/Soccer in his first season (and the first season played after the war) in 1945. Which in my opinion suggests that Bobrov already was starting to reach his physical peak at age 22. Perhaps even earlier as we have no way of knowing how good Bobrov would have been during the war years.

If we get back to hockey Bobrov started his 30´s with two partial seasons where he did not finish among the top scorers before he in 54/55 at age 32 finished 3rd in the scoring race only two goals from second place but far behind the runaway leader Guryshev who at that time was 29 years old. Even if Bobrovs domestic results started to tail off when he reached 30 he was still the Soviet Unions most reliable scorer and best forward internationally between 1954 and 1957. With that said I can´t help but wonder how well Bobrov could have done internationally at his peak (47/48-51/52) if the Soviets would have started competing internationally at that time.

I personally think that when it comes to pure talent Bobrov was on the same level as players like Firsov and Kharlamov. But because of the circumstances (playing his first full hockey season at age 25, playing his first international tournament at age 31 and playing in an era when Soviet hockey had not started to catch up with Canadian hockey) he obviously never reached the same high level as those players. What I mean is that if Bobrov would have been born 20 years later and been raised with the game of hockey I personally believe that he could have reached the level of Firsov and Kharlamov. I am aware that Bobrov had been raised with the game of bandy and that alot of the skills are transferable between the two sports like skating and stickhandling but I still find it quite obvious that Bobrov and the rest of his generation of Soviet hockey players would have been far better hockey players if they had they been raised with the game. On my list I had Bobrov in the 15-20 range but I honestly believe that he was talented enough to be a Top 5 player if the circumstances had been more favourable to him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Preliminary thoughts before discussion:

• I was hoping for Tumba, Svedberg, Balderis, Zabrodsky, and Jiri Holik to be added. 4 of 5 ain't bad.
• Disappointed but not surprised to see Bobrov available before Zabrosksy. The pre-Golden age Soviets really get the benefit of the doubt in a way they shouldn't IMO. I don't think Bobrov was any more dominant than Zabrodsky, and Zabrodsky just did it for so much longer.
• I currently have Svedberg quite a bit ahead of Ragulin - I think he's more proven against better competition. For example, his prime directly overlapped with the prime of Jan Suchy and the early prime of Pospisil. Not to mention, he played AGAINST quite a few forwards already on our list. Ragulin apparently received very few votes for awards in international tournaments after 1967 - is he any better than Sologubov?
• I currently have Tumba ahead of Bobrov - again, more tested against better competition. Also reads like more of a team player than Bobrov.
• I also have Tumba over Starshinov - I think his record in international competition is better.
• I think Novy and Jiri Holik are the next two "Golden era" Czechs to go; glad we can compare them. Which one is better? Holik was the top left wing of a left wing lock team, and sources praise his two-way game in a manner that you really don't find about any other 1970s European forward. So Holik is definitely going to be underrated by just his stats.
• I currently rank the three Golden era Soviet fowards 1) Yakushev 2) Balderis 3) Larionov, but I'm definitely open to change that.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Initial thoughts:

-I realize it's difficult to give Balderis a fair shake considering his issues with Tikhonov, but when we look at his actual accomplishments then I think he has to rank a tier below Larionov and Yakushev.

Domestically, not much separates Balderis from Maltsev, though, right?

-Svedberg vs Ragulin seems like a classic case of peak vs longevity.

Does Ragulin really have longevity in a meaningful sense? You're the one who pointed out that not only did he not receive any WHC awards after 1967, he barely received any votes at all after 1967. Are we already at the point where simply being good enough to play for the National Team counts as meaningful longevity for us? To be fair, I might be biased against Ragulin because of how bad he was in the 1972 Summit Series when he was older.

 

[VMBM]

Preliminary thoughts before discussion:

• I was hoping for Tumba, Svedberg, Balderis, Zabrodsky, and Jiri Holik to be added. 4 of 5 ain't bad.
• Disappointed but not surprised to see Bobrov available before Zabrosksy. The pre-Golden age Soviets really get the benefit of the doubt in a way they shouldn't IMO. I don't think Bobrov was any more dominant than Zabrodsky, and Zabrodsky just did it for so much longer.

• 
  
  I don't think Jiri Holik should be ahead of Hlinka. I agree with Zabrodsky though; I ranked him #12 on my initial list. And IMO Svedberg is grossly overrated, but hey, I'm open-minded! Let's see if I will be convinced of his supposed greatness
  
  

  [*]I currently have Tumba ahead of Bobrov - again, more tested against better competition. Also reads like more of a team player than Bobrov.

  
  Really? I've understood that Tumba was a fairly selfish goal-scorer?

 

[Theokritos]

Domestically, not much separates Balderis from Maltsev, though, right?

You mean in terms of scoring? In Player of the Year voting (which of course factors in both domestic and international play) Maltsev obviously blows Balderis out of the water.

I currently have Tumba ahead of Bobrov - again, more tested against better competition. Also reads like more of a team player than Bobrov.

From what I've read neither was considered much of a team player.

Joe Pelletier:
"A big fellow at a solid 6'3" and 210lbs. He had a little Gordie Howe in him. He was very hard to stop and impossible to separate from the puck. Tumba's strength was his heavy and quick shot that always seemed to be on target. With his combination of physical strength and good hands he was a scoring threat whenever he had the puck. His weakness was that he didn't pass the puck as much as he should have."

No kidding....have heard about teammates not too fond of playing with Tumba since he never passed the puck.

Lasse Björn used to say that the only time Tumba passed the puck was when he lost it. But I never got the impression that it bothered anyone. Tumba's job was to score goals, and he did it better than anyone on his team. Why would he pass it?

Tumba liked to joke about it aswell: "I seldom passed the puck. If they wanted it they could empty it out of the net instead."

All quotes from this thread.

 

[Theokritos]

Some posts about Bobrov from the preliminary thread:

When watching the old clips (usually highlights), I definitely see some Firsov in Bobrov; skating, puckhandling... and he seemed to have good strength and was certainly not soft, even though the Penticton Vees did manage to contain him in the 1955 USSR-CAN game. For example, here Lasse Björn checks him after a breakaway (where Bobrov misses the net) and it's Björn that ends up on his butt and not Bobrov (1954 WHC).

The Soviet oldtimers (if generalized a bit) seem to consider Bobrov and Kharlamov as equals or near-equals and all of the rest (including Firsov and Makarov) well below them, which is not fully acceptable to me, of course.
You can see some of that in Leonid Trakhtenberg and Anatoly Bochinin's "Golden Lines of Soviet Hockey" list on a Chidlovski site:
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1974/liners/segold.htm

Maybe this is old news, but there is an one hour long Swedish documentary on the 1954 World Championships on YouTube -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkigcZ0Fu9o. I haven't had the time to watch it fully yet, but seems pretty ok. And you just gotta love the music and the 'light' narrating style in these old documentaries!
Of course, you can find highlight clips of some of the games played in the tournament elsewhere too.

Based on this I think that it is very likely that Bobrov would have had many more dominant seasons if he would have been able to play in his early 20´s too. As further "evidence" to support that theory Bobrov was the scoring champion in the Soviet Top League in Football/Soccer in his first season (and the first season played after the war) in 1945. Which in my opinion suggests that Bobrov already was starting to reach his physical peak at age 22. Perhaps even earlier as we have no way of knowing how good Bobrov would have been during the war years.

There was at least some football and bandy played in the Soviet Union during the war. After the German invasion in June 1941 the factory Bobrov (then 18 years of age) worked at was moved from Leningrad to Siberia (near Omsk, to be specific) with all its staff. According to the biography by Anatoly Salutsky it was in Omsk where Bobrov really started to shine (in both bandy and soccer). His bandy routine of picking up the ball from his own goalie, going end-to-end through the opposing team and finish the play with a goal was the "talk of the town" in 1941-42 according to Salutsky. But of course it's problematic to draw conclusions from that since the level of competition at Omsk is a complete question mark to us.
However, Salutsky also says that Bobrov was a standout when he joined the Red Army bandy team in Moscow in 1944. He quotes Boris Arkadyev (who was in charge of the Red Army soccer team at that time):

"I came to the first training session of the hockey team to look at the newcomer, and what I saw amazed me. First of all, I saw that the newcomer, joining the champions club of the country, did not feel he was put to test but kept calm and confident, both in the locker room and on the ice. I immediately understood: this was a true, god-given talent and master of the individual game. Bobrov's ability to go through the opposing defence with his fast stickhandling was just amazing... And once the hockey season had begun, everybody was talking about the emergence of a new hockey 'star' of unprecedented greatness."

Also anecdotal, but interesting:

Boris Mikhailov:
"At CSKA it had been the practice to stage periodical matches between the junior team and veterans. And for one time in my life I got to play against Vsevolod Bobrov. It was a great experience. Apart from him, there were many famous masters playing for the veterans – Aleksandr Vinogradov, Viktor Shuvalov and many other World Champions. Of course the juniors lost, 6-14. It was understandable, but I was struck by the skill of Vsevolod Mikhailovich [Bobrov] who scored six or seven goals. It was then that I grasped why he had no equal – brilliant skating, despite the injuries and age; great technique and unsurpassed handling of the stick which he alone on the planet was able to move from hand to hand."

Two remarks:
-Mikhailov's claim that no-one else was ever ambidextrous and could use both of his hands is wrong (Gordie Howe is an obvious counter-example), but it's certainly a rare capacity.
-Mikhailov did not play junior hockey for CSKA as he only joined the Army team when he was 22. Therefore we have to assume that he played for the junior team as a reinforcement player from the senior ranks. The earliest possible date for the game would have been the 1967 off-season when Mikhailov came to CSKA. At that time Bobrov was 44 years old & 10 years retired from playing hockey.

 

[Sturminator]

I sincerely hope that Starshinov doesn't make it this round. I have nothing against him, but he really needs to be compared to Veniamin Alexandrov, and hopefully also Boris Mayorov.

Svedberg vs. Ragulin is a very interesting comparison. Svedberg did, indeed, face stiffer competition, and it's not like his peak is terribly short. He was a Swedish league all-star six times, going all the way back to his age 19 season, I believe. But Ragulin was also the rock of the great 60's Soviet teams, and I gather that when he was younger, he was an outstanding physical two-way defenseman who could control the play as a stay-at-home guy, sort of like a less violent version of later-years Scott Stevens. I think they are ultimately pretty close.

I've got Balderis a bit behind Yakushev, but not far. It's a shame that he got limited opportunities with the Soviet national team, as he was really good (Best Forward good) when he got to be a first liner, but it is what it is. I don't believe that Yakushev was actually a better talent than Balderis, but he had the somewhat better career for various reasons, and we have to honor that. Both men belong ahead of Igor Larionov, imo.

 

[Theokritos]

Does Ragulin really have longevity in a meaningful sense? You're the one who pointed out that not only did he not receive any WHC awards after 1967, he barely received any votes at all after 1967. Are we already at the point where simply being good enough to play for the National Team counts as meaningful longevity for us?

It's not so much Ragulin having strong longevity than Svedberg lacking any – very obviously, due to his premature death. Svedberg's international career is basically restricted to four WHCs: one in 1965, then three from 1969-1971.

Does anybody know why Svedberg missed the 1966-1967 WHCs and the 1968 Olympics? After all he did make the Swedish All-star team in 1966 and 1968.

 

[Theokritos]

I've got Balderis a bit behind Yakushev, but not far. It's a shame that he got limited opportunities with the Soviet national team, as he was really good (Best Forward good) when he got to be a first liner, but it is what it is.

I don't have ice time records, but at the 1978 and 1979 WHCs Balderis played on the same line as in 1977 (with Zhluktov and Kapustin) and he was good, but not Best Forward good. I'm in favour of giving him some benefit of the doubt for his lack of opportunity to play for the national team after 1980 (sole exception being the 1983 WHC), but Larionov himself has a 1st place in Soviet Player of the Year voting in 1988 and two 4th places prior to that, so you have to give Balderis quite a lot benefit to put him ahead of Igor Larionov.

 

[DN28]

I´m not sure why Bobrov (and Tumba) is here and not Zabrodsky. Also, is Bobrov really better than Sologubov?

Jiri Holik is a dark horse here. Every time I found more about him, I´m more impressed. Hopefully I´ll post some info about him soon. I have it a lot on him...

Larionov, Novy, Yakushev and perhaps Balderis shouldn´t be hard to compare.
I still want to post something more about Novy..

I like Starshinov but he needs to be compared to other Soviet forwards from his time. Still, I´ll probably have him above Ragulin.

I currently have Svedberg quite a bit ahead of Ragulin - I think he's more proven against better competition. For example, his prime directly overlapped with the prime of Jan Suchy and the early prime of Pospisil. Not to mention, he played AGAINST quite a few forwards already on our list. Ragulin apparently received very few votes for awards in international tournaments after 1967 - is he any better than Sologubov?

I have the same problem.

Everything I´ve ever read about Ragulin was his big body, strength and physical play (and his constant fights with Jaroslav Holik). Wasn´t much of an offensive threat, only defense. Therefore, I used to think that he gathered all of his all-star nods in era where he simply stood out among European d-men because of his qualities predetermining him to scare away softer European skaters. Once his competition started to get better and d-men were asked to play a whole lot more than Ragulin could have provided, he stopped being relevant internationally.

That VBVM´post about Ragulin in last voting was finally some proof for me that Ragulin actually had some decent technical skills.

Either way, it´s questionable whether Ragulin should be ahead of Svedberg, though I originally had Ragulin above. Same way it´s questionable whether Ragulin should be ahead of Sologubov, at least Sologubov was much better offensively, while being similar in terms of physical or even dirty play in deffensive zone. Also he seems to me like more talented in terms of skills or IQ.

Ragulin definitely belongs in this territory and shouldn´t be anywhere close to Vasiliev, Suchy, Pospisil, Kasatonov territory.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Milan Novy, Jiri Holik, and the 1970s CSSR All Star Teams

Here are the results of the CSSR All-Star Teams for forwards. I believe they are listed as RW-C-LW


1968-1969:
Václav Nedomanský (Bratislava), Jaroslav Holík (Jihlava), Jiří Holík (Jihlava)

1969-1970:
Jan Hrbatý (Jihlava), Václav Nedomanský (Bratislava), Josef Černý (Brno)

1970-1971:
Jiří Kochta (Sparta), Václav Nedomanský (Bratislava), Josef Černý (Brno)

1971-1972:
Jiří Kochta (Sparta), Jaroslav Holík (Jihlava), Jiří Holík (Jihlava)

1972-1973:
Vladimír Martinec (Pardubice), Václav Nedomanský (Bratislava), Jiří Holík (Jihlava)

1973-1974:
Vladimír Martinec (Pardubice), Václav Nedomansky (Bratislava), Jiří Holík (Jihlava)

1974-1975:
Vladimír Martinec (Pardubice), Milan Nový (Kladno), Jiří Holík (Jihlava)

1975-1976:
Vladimír Martinec (Pardubice), Milan Nový (Kladno), Jiří Holík (Jihlava)

1976-1977:
Vladimír Martinec (Pardubice), Milan Nový (Kladno), Bohuslav Ebermann (Plzeň)

1978-1987: Discontinued.

_______________________

All-Star Teams seem to have been replaced by a "Best Players" Poll by Tip Weekly Magazine in 1977 (with one season overlap). Tip selected 1 goalie, 1 defenseman, and 1 forward of the year. Here are the results for best forward through the end of Novy's prime:

1976-1977:
Milan Nový (F, Kladno)

1977-1978:
Milan Nový (F, Kladno)

1978-1979:
Marián Šťastný (F, Bratislava)

1979-1980:
Peter Šťastný (F, Bratislava)

1980-1981:
Milan Nový (F, Kladno)

1981-1982:
Milan Nový (F, Kladno)

Note that the Stastny brothers defected before Novy won his last awards as best forward.

Source: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59792539&postcount=33

 

[Sturminator]

I don't have ice time records, but at the 1978 and 1979 WHCs Balderis played on the same line as in 1977 (with Zhluktov and Kapustin) and he was good, but not Best Forward good.

That's right. Balderis got basically three years of regular scoringline icetime on the national team. He wasn't a nominal 1st liner even then, but there's no reason to quibble. He won Best Forward in 1977, and tied for the goalscoring lead at the 1978 tournament. I'd say that's pretty good for three years.

I'm in favour of giving him some benefit of the doubt for his lack of opportunity to play for the national team after 1980 (sole exception being the 1983 WHC), but Larionov himself has a 1st place in Soviet Player of the Year voting in 1988 and two 4th places prior to that, so you have to give Balderis quite a lot benefit to put him ahead of Igor Larionov.

Balderis has a Soviet player of the year award, as well, against tougher competition (1977). He was a much more dangerous offensive player than Larionov, and his peak was not short, at all, bookended by 3rd place Soviet league scoring finishes eleven seasons apart (1975-85). The extended twilight of Larionov's career is impressive, but nothing he did in that period compares to Balderis during his long peak.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I´m not sure why Bobrov (and Tumba) is here and not Zabrodsky. Also, is Bobrov really better than Sologubov?

Good question. I had all over Tumba, Zabrodsky, and Sologubov over Bobrov. Bobrov's period of relevance as a hockey player (rather than all-round athlete) was just so short, and didn't overlap with the careers of players who actually grew up playing hockey like the careers of Sologubov and Tumba did.

Edit: Of course the absence of comparables doesn't necessarily mean we should leave Bobrov off, of course. That said, I would be hard pressed to rank him over Yakushev or Balderis, who excelled in a much stronger era (and for longer).

Jiri Holik is dark horse here. Every time I found more about him I´m more impressed. Hopefully I´ll post some info about him soon. I have it a lot on him...

Looking forward to it. Really interesting player as the top LW in a LW-lock system.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Novy should be ranked decisively over Starshinov

I originally posted this during the final round of the HOH Top Centers project (where both Novy and Starshinov were eligible and failed to make the cut). At the time, we had no assist data from the 1960s Soviet domestic league. Now we have limited assist data in certain years, and it appears to confirm that Starshinov, for all his (domestic) goal scoring, was a weak playmaker.

Why Starshinov should miss the cut

The case for Starshinov relies on two things - his domestic goal scoring stats (best of his era) and his All-Star nods (1st Team Soviet AS Center consistently in the 60s). However, read this post comparing him to Firsov.

What sticks out are their respective records in international tournaments:

Firsov - 67GP-66G-51A-117PTS (1.75PPG)
Starshinov - 86GP-70G-31A-101PTS (1.17PPG)

Now remember that the difference in assists would probably actually be greater than shown above, because the WCs only recorded primary assists at the time. (While the Soviet league didn't record assists at all until the 1970s)

What can we gather from this?

1) While Starshinov was a strong goal scorer, he was an extremely weak playmaker, and his domestic record is almost certainly inflated by the fact that the Soviet league did not record assists at all for most of his career, just goals.

2) In the higher level of competition of the international game, Starshinov fell way behind his peer Firsov (who was a superstar), but also didn't distinguish himself from lesser players.

Why could this be? Starshinov's profile reads like a slow skating, Phil Esposito type, who scored a lot of goals in front of the net, yet he was only 5'9 183 pounds (average size for back then). My theory is that in the faster skating international game against larger defensemen, his style wasn't as effective as it was against weaker domestic competition. It was common in the "primitive" era of European hockey (late 40s through early 60s) for lines to be constructive around "feeding" a superstar, who was generally much better than his linemates, rather than playing a more team game - see Vladimir Zabrodsky, Vselolvod Bobrov, Sven Tumba, and perhaps Starshinov's line was a relic of this style of play.

Anyway, Starshinov's international awards recognition is quite poor. He was considered the best forward in the World Championships in 1965, and never again. Other forwards selected once in the 1960s - Nisse Nilsson, Vlastimil Bubnik, Miroslav Vlach, Eduard Ivanov, Konstantin Loktev, Ulf Sterner. (Tumba was named best forward twice overall and Firsov was 3 times).

Starshinov was more consistent than most of those names, and his domestic goal scoring record really is good, so I think that if we were doing a top 80, he'd deserve strong consideration. But I can't see him being given a serious look for top 60, and there's no way he should go over Milan Novy (who I will post a bit more about later). For now, suffice to say that Novy stood out more in international competition in the 1970s (when it was a lot stronger) than Starshinov stood out in the 60s international competition.

 

[DN28]

Novy´s relatively weak NHL career has been discussed but his four games against NHL teams during 77-78 should be pointed out also.

26.12.1977 New York Rangers - Poldi Kladno 4 : 4 (1:3, 0:1, 3:0)
Goals: Pouzar 2, Ebermann, Milan Nový.

31.12.1977 Chicago Black Hawks - Poldi Kladno 4 : 6 (2:5, 1:1, 1:0)
Goals: Ebermann 3, E. Novák 2, P. Šťastný.

2.1.1978 Toronto Maple Leafs - Poldi Kladno 5 : 8 (2:4, 2:2, 1:2)
Goals: Pouzar 2, Křiváček 2, P. Šťastný 2, Neliba, Milan Nový.

4.1.1978 Cleveland Barons - Poldi Kladno 4 : 3 (1:1, 2:0, 1:2)
Goals: Pouzar, V. Sýkora, Z. Müller.

Kladno´ stats

Novy played 3 games (have no idea why not all 4... injury? or fear of injury to their key player?) and had 4 points (2+2), sixth in his team.
Nothing extremely impressive but still over ppg, and Kladno´s results are IMO amazing, 1 tie, 2 wins and one loss against weak Clevelend when guys probably lacked motivation already.

I just thought it´s something FOR Novy rather than AGAINST him, unlike his 1982-83 season.

By the way, I found that full game in Toronto. Theokritos can added to his list of his historic videos.
(you might wanna see dirty hit by Toronto player at 59:20. )

I also found this nice documentary about Kladno´s hockey history. It´s only in Czech without subtitles, there are still some nice footage though - just in case anyone is interested...

 

[Theokritos]

By the way, I found that full game in Toronto. Theokritos can added to his list of his historic videos.

Great find! Added.

 

[Thegreatwar]

Great find! Added.

Yeah, I remember being told by someone on these boards that Ballard ordered his team to not try in this game because he wanted nothing to do with the Euro teams or something. Presumably the players felt a bit differently, given that they made some dirty hits.