Round 2, Vote 5 (2009 update)

[Howe Elbows 9]

To what extent did Dionne carry his teams? Statistically, how much did Coffey contribute to his teams?

Scoring for the Red Wings, 1971-72 to 1974-75:

Player |Pos. |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Marcel Dionne |C |309 |139 |227 |366 |1.18
Mickey Redmond |RW |259 |160 |108 |268 |1.03
Nick Libett |LW |302 |97 |108 |205 |0.68
Red Berenson |C |259 |68 |116 |184 |0.71
Alex Delvecchio |C |163 |39 |102 |141 |0.87

Scoring for the Kings, 1975-76 to 1986-87:

Player |Pos. |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Marcel Dionne |C |921 |550 |757 |1307 |1.42
Dave Taylor |RW |684 |321 |473 |794 |1.16
Charlie Simmer |LW |384 |222 |244 |466 |1.21
Bernie Nicholls |C |411 |198 |257 |455 |1.11
Jim Fox |RW |499 |169 |257 |426 |0.85

During his time with the Rangers, Marcel was seventh in points and sixth in PPG (at least 50 GP).

Playoff scoring for the Kings, 1976 to 1985:

Player |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Marcel Dionne |43 |20 |23 |43 |1.00
Mike Murphy |37 |8 |16 |24 |0.65
Dave Taylor |25 |10 |11 |21 |0.84
Butch Goring |22 |9 |8 |17 |0.77
Charlie Simmer |15 |7 |7 |14 |0.93

Scoring for the Oilers, 1980-81 to 1986-87:

Player |Pos. |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Wayne Gretzky |C |553 |492 |891 |1383 |2.50
Jari Kurri |RW |520 |354 |398 |752 |1.45
Paul Coffey |D |532 |209 |460 |669 |1.26
Glenn Anderson |RW |522 |301 |316 |617 |1.18
Mark Messier |C |495 |253 |350 |603 |1.22

Scoring for the Penguins, 1987-88 to 1991-92:

Player |Pos. |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Mario Lemieux |C |302 |263 |403 |666 |2.21
Paul Coffey |D |331 |108 |332 |440 |1.33
Kevin Stevens |LW |276 |140 |161 |301 |1.09
Rob Brown |RW |224 |112 |143 |255 |1.14
Mark Recchi |RW |225 |104 |148 |252 |1.12

During his time with the Kings, Paul was tenth in points and third in PPG.

Scoring for the Red Wings, 1992-93 to 1995-96:

Player |Pos. |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Sergei Fedorov |C |275 |149 |215 |364 |1.32
Steve Yzerman |C |269 |130 |222 |352 |1.31
Dino Ciccarelli |RW |254 |107 |133 |240 |0.94
Paul Coffey |D |231 |46 |193 |239 |1.03
Ray Sheppard |RW |200 |116 |87 |203 |1.02

Playoff scoring for the Oilers, 1981 to 1987:

Player |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Wayne Gretzky |98 |67 |139 |206 |2.10
Jari Kurri |98 |65 |73 |138 |1.41
Glenn Anderson |98 |55 |65 |120 |1.22
Mark Messier |97 |54 |66 |120 |1.24
Paul Coffey |94 |36 |67 |103 |1.10

Playoff scoring for the Penguins, 1989 to 1991:

Player |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Mario Lemieux |34 |28 |35 |63 |1.85
Kevin Stevens |35 |20 |23 |43 |1.23
Mark Recchi |24 |10 |24 |34 |1.42
Paul Coffey |23 |4 |22 |26 |1.13
Larry Murphy |23 |5 |18 |23 |1.00

During his playoff year with the Kings (which lasted six games), Paul was tied for the scoring lead with Robitaille and Gretzky at 7 points.

Playoff scoring for the Red Wings, 1993 to 1996:

Player |GP |G |A |TP |PPG
Sergei Fedorov |50 |13 |48 |61 |1.22
Paul Coffey |49 |14 |36 |50 |1.02
Steve Yzerman |43 |17 |26 |43 |1.00
Vyacheslav Kozlov |48 |16 |21 |37 |0.77
Nicklas Lidström |51 |13 |23 |36 |0.71

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm back from vacation in Russia now, so I should be more active this round.

Makarov really should be an option now. Surprised Henri Richard is not.

1. Vladislav Tretiak - It makes zero sense to have him siginificantly behind Fetisov and Kharalmov - most lists of Soviet players have the three of them in the top three spots in some order. Leading Soviet league MVP by a wide margin.

2. Joe Malone - The Mike Bossy of the NHL's first 50 years? Unmatched goal scorer until Maurice Richard came around. Good playoff performer too.

The Next 3 are very close and I might switch them around:

3. Chris Chelios - best dman left by a small but clear margin (see posts in earlier thread)

4. Frank Mahovlich - high maintanence perhaps, but he got the results. Fantastic player in both the regular season and playoffs. He won 6 Stanley Cups, four as a key member of the 60s Leafs dynasty, and he routinely led the Leafs in goals. Then towards the end of his career, he had 58 points in 49 playoff games for Montreal, capturing 2 more Stanley Cups.

The Hockey News' flawed rankings ranked him 26. We already dropped him due to his high maintanence nature, but he shouldn't drop much farther. He fought with coaches, but in the end, he came through.

5. Bernard Geoffrion - Stand out performer (especially in the playoffs) on the best team of all time

6. Brad Park - a different skillset, but basically has the peak of Chris Chelios without the insane longevity

7. Paul Coffey - completely one-dimensional, but what a dimension. Both Gretzky and Lemieux had their best numbers with Coffey on the team - not a coincidence.

8. Max Bentley - 2 Art Rosses, 1 Hart. Took over right where Syl Apps left off, helping to lead the late 40s/early 50s Leafs to 3 Stanley Cups.

9. Charlie Conacher - Led the league in goals 5 times. Another one-dimensional guy, but a very good dimension to have.

10. Pierre Pilote - Probably a round too early. But I might end up putting him above Bathgate and Boucher anyway.

11. Andy Bathgate - put up the stats, but how much did he contribute to team success? I'm having trouble figuring out where to rank him. Anyone want to take up his case in more detail?

12. Frank Boucher - great playmaker, but how many of his assists were to Bill Cook? I'm having trouble deciding between him and Bathgate.

13. Tim Horton - A round to early, but closer to Pilote than others seem to think. Big time playoff performer to Pilote's big time regular season performances.

14. Bill Durnan - Dryden without the playoff success. And that distinction is very important. Routinely outplayed his contemporary Broda in the regular season, but routinely outplayed by Broda in the postseason. Durnan and Broda should be ranked right next to each other, perhaps next round, but not this round.

15. Marcel Dionne - Fantastic at accumulating points in the regular season. Terrible (for a supposed Top 50 all time player) in the playoffs. Compare him to Sergei Fedorov, a guy correctly not up for voting yet. One guy played at an elite level in the playoffs and sometimes coasted through the regular season. One guy always put up points in the regular season and never maintained an elite level in the playoffs. I know who I'd rather have on my team.

Edit: My top 9 and bottom 3 are pretty close to set unless I see anything completely new. Mostly interested in hearing arguments for/against Pilote, Bathgate, and Boucher. None were in my Top 50 in the first round, but obviously one has to be now.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In either case, I consider them very very close in ranking. But Coffey gets the slight nod. If you think it is a blowout in either direction, then I question why. Defensively, Coffey is questionable when comparing him to other two way defensemen such as Bourque and Chelios in his time, but comparing him to a forward who was never anything special defensively or in the playoffs either is another story.

I'll tell you why it's a blowout for me: playoffs. Their contributions in the regular season are very close, but Coffey maintained his level of play in the playoffs. Dionne did not.

Dionne will make the list, but he should be many spots behind Coffey.

Yeah but what about Makarov's success in the canada cups, he was always among the top scorers in those tournaments. I think a 40 spot gap between them is just wrong.

Agreed, and hopefully Makarov comes up for voting soon. He'll be my top pick as soon as he's added.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ted Kennedy

8. Max Bentley - 2 Art Rosses, 1 Hart. Took over right where Syl Apps left off, helping to lead the late 40s/early 50s Leafs to 3 Stanley Cups.

Noticed the helping but still a much smaller contribution then Ted Kennedy who played a much greater role especially defensively, playing and against and reducing the effectiveness of the opponents top offensive threats, and brought a level of toughness that Max Bentley did not have.

The Kennedy hit on Gordie Howe in the 1950 playoffs may be viewed by some as the equivalent of Clarke / Kharlamov minus the television exposure.

The Leaf centers from the era tend to a Apps/Kennedy/Bentley ranking. Readers should remember that in 1945 Kennedy led the Leafs to an unexpected Stanley Cup upsetting a powerhouse Canadiens team in the process.without Apps and Bentley. Apps in 1942 was a key element in the 0-3 comeback Maple Leaf team that won the Stanley Cup.

 

[pnep]

pnep, could you post the ES-stats of the other players available for this vote?


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=476980

http://rapidshare.de/files/48221646/TOI.xls.html

 

[seventieslord]

pappy has me convinced that Durnan is overrated. I wasn't planning on voting for him ahead of other goalies such as Benedict, Bower, and Brimsek, and possibly not Parent either.

Someone sell me on Durnan - why should he 9th after the "big 8"? And how on earth is he up for voting before Bower and Benedict?

 

[Dark Shadows]

I'll tell you why it's a blowout for me: playoffs. Their contributions in the regular season are very close, but Coffey maintained his level of play in the playoffs. Dionne did not.

Dionne will make the list, but he should be many spots behind Coffey.



Agreed, and hopefully Makarov comes up for voting soon. He'll be my top pick as soon as he's added.

I never thought of Coffey as a particularly dangerous playoff performer to tell you the truth. He has that one big year, and a couple of good ones, but nothing that says "He was a fantastic playoff performer" over the long haul. Obviously, his playoffs are better than Dionne's, while Dionne's regular seasons are slightly better. In the end, I have them 1 spot away from each other.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Having not watched Marcel Dionne much, I would love to understand why he is hurt so badly by the playoffs. Was the guy ever on a team expected to make a good run? Outside of '81 I have trouble seeing it.

As noted above, he was often surrounded by little talent, ensuring he would be swarmed come playoff time. Despite being on teams that never once made it past the 2nd round in the playoffs, I have a tough time understanding how someone with 6 120+ point seasons falls so much.

Not saying his drop is not justified, but it does seem extreme.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Having not watched Marcel Dionne much, I would love to understand why he is hurt so badly by the playoffs. Was the guy ever on a team expected to make a good run? Outside of '81 I have trouble seeing it.

As noted above, he was often surrounded by little talent, ensuring he would be swarmed come playoff time. Despite being on teams that never once made it past the 2nd round in the playoffs, I have a tough time understanding how someone with 6 120+ point seasons falls so much.

Not saying his drop is not justified, but it does seem extreme.

See post 93 of this thread and the pdf file Hockey Outsider links to. Also note that quite a few posters here who saw Dionne play say that his play dropped noticably in the playoffs.

 

[MXD]

pappy has me convinced that Durnan is overrated. I wasn't planning on voting for him ahead of other goalies such as Benedict, Bower, and Brimsek, and possibly not Parent either.

Someone sell me on Durnan - why should he 9th after the "big 8"? And how on earth is he up for voting before Bower and Benedict?

Because he's basically Dryden without playoffs all the while having Broda and Brimsek, obvious Top-100 guys, to compete against?

... And he was not only better than Broda and Brimsek... He was also significantly better. Not that bad in playoffs (at least, he shouldn't be the only one to wear the goat horns) but they certainly not help his case. What makes him so important (not that it should be relevant anyways) is that he was the first decent netminder the Habs had for a while.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

Personally, Durnan is close to Broda on my list.

Top 3 in shutouts

Season |First |Second |Third
1937-38 |Kerr |Thompson |Broda, Robertson
1938-39 |Brimsek |Broda |Kerr
1939-40 |Kerr |Brimsek, Robertson
1940-41 |Brimsek |Broda |Mowers
1941-42 |Broda |Mowers |Brimsek, LoPresti
1942-43 |Mowers |Beveridge, Bibeault, Brimsek, Broda, B. Gardiner
1943-44 |Bibeault |Karakas |Durnan
1944-45 |Karakas, McCool |Durnan, Lumley, McAuley
1945-46 |Durnan |Bibeault, Brimsek, Lumley
1946-47 |Rayner |Broda, Durnan
1947-48 |Lumley |Broda, Durnan
1948-49 |Durnan |Rayner |Lumley
1949-50 |Broda |Durnan |Lumley
1950-51 |Sawchuk |Broda, McNeil

Summary

Player |First |Second |Third | Total
Brimsek |1 |3 |1 |5
Broda |2 |6 |1 |9
Durnan |2 |3 |2 |7

Top 3 in GAA

Season |First |Second |Third
1938-39 |Brimsek |Kerr |Broda
1939-40 |Kerr |Goodman |Brimsek
1940-41 |Broda |Brimsek, Mowers
1941-42 |Brimsek |Broda |Henry
1942-43 |Mowers |Broda |Brimsek
1943-44 |Durnan |Bibeault |Karakas
1944-45 |Durnan |Lumley |McCool
1945-46 |Durnan |Bibeault |Lumley
1946-47 |Durnan |Broda |Brimsek
1947-48 |Broda |Lumley |Durnan
1948-49 |Durnan |Lumley |Broda
1949-50 |Durnan |Lumley |Broda
1950-51 |Rollins |Sawchuk |Broda

Summary

Player |First |Second |Third | Total
Brimsek |2 |1 |3 |6
Broda |2 |3 |4 |9
Durnan |6 |0 |1 |7

Also, here are the names that will probably be in my top ten this week:
Bathgate
Bentley
Chelios
Coffey
Conacher
Geoffrion
Mahovlich
Malone
Park
Tretiak

 

[RabbinsDuck]

See post 93 of this thread and the pdf file Hockey Outsider links to. Also note that quite a few posters here who saw Dionne play say that his play dropped noticably in the playoffs.

Thanks... I completely passed over that discussion.
I agree Coffey should be ahead of Dionne... but I have a tough time seeing him at the bottom of this round.

For multiple ten year periods, and longer, he was the number one scorer in the entire NHL, decently ahead of LaFleur, Esposito, Clarke and Trottier whom are all well ahead of him already.

 

[seventieslord]

Because he's basically Dryden without playoffs all the while having Broda and Brimsek, obvious Top-100 guys, to compete against?

He didn't always have two top-100 guys to compete against. Two of his first all-star team berths were freebies. A couple others were obtained at a time when competition across the board wasn't particularly strong. This should be accounted for.

... And he was not only better than Broda and Brimsek... He was also significantly better. Not that bad in playoffs (at least, he shouldn't be the only one to wear the goat horns) but they certainly not help his case. What makes him so important (not that it should be relevant anyways) is that he was the first decent netminder the Habs had for a while.

Why was he "significantly" better than Broda and Brimsek?

He was not bad in the playoffs. Some people are too hard on him for that. But he did keep losing to Broda.

"Dryden without the playoffs" is a good place to start, but I'd also add that he was less dominant than Dryden despite the identical all-star teams, and that he did what he did in a less-competitive era.

I would say that Benedict is "Durnan plus playoffs plus longevity minus flakiness". Look at how many times he led his league in GAA... in shutouts... in wins... it was more times than seasons Durnan played. He won four cups; Durnan won five playoff series.

Plus, Benedict is just far more historically significant.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Last year, there was disagreement on whether Bathgate was bad playoff performer of the Dionne variety, or if he was a decent performer who was unlucky to play on awful teams until he was past his prime.

Anyone have anything new to add this time?

 

[seventieslord]

I'll let the others speak on that, but I can tell you that for some reason he had an offensively BRUTAL playoff with the Leafs, though they still won the cup.

 

[Stonefly]

See post 93 of this thread and the pdf file Hockey Outsider links to. Also note that quite a few posters here who saw Dionne play say that his play dropped noticably in the playoffs.

I don't ever remember thinking that Dionne wasn't giving a full effort. So there are other opinions of people who watched him too. And it just doesn't make sense anyway. Do you honestly think a guy who can do what he did in the regular season, has that kind of drive, is going to play half heartedly in the playoffs? His lack of results is a matter of not having a team with more depth. A one line team can be easily neutralized in a series with decent coaching. See Detroit against Crosby these last playoffs for an example of how a great player can be neutralized if a team comes up with a plan to do so. Crosby wasn't slacking but his numbers would lead some to believe he was.
Did Dionne adapt and overcome the increased attention on him? No. But that is exactly what separates him from say Lafleur. Lafleur was better at improvisation. That should be the difference between those two, not lack of effort in the playoffs.
If you can watch the 76 Canada Cup and tell me there was a lack of effort there I'd be surprised. I thought he played poorly but it wasn't because of a lack of effort. Yet his point totals may lead you to think that.

Dionne lacking effort in playoffs is a myth that is perpetuated in this section.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't ever remember thinking that Dionne wasn't giving a full effort. So there are other opinions of people who watched him too. And it just doesn't make sense anyway. Do you honestly think a guy who can do what he did in the regular season, has that kind of drive, is going to play half heartedly in the playoffs? His lack of results is a matter of not having a team with more depth. A one line team can be easily neutralized in a series with decent coaching. See Detroit against Crosby these last playoffs for an example of how a great player can be neutralized if a team comes up with a plan to do so. Crosby wasn't slacking but his numbers would lead some to believe he was.
Did Dionne adapt and overcome the increased attention on him? No. But that is exactly what separates him from say Lafleur. Lafleur was better at improvisation. That should be the difference between those two, not lack of effort in the playoffs.
If you can watch the 76 Canada Cup and tell me there was a lack of effort there I'd be surprised. I thought he played poorly but it wasn't because of a lack of effort. Yet his point totals may lead you to think that.

Dionne lacking effort in playoffs is a myth that is perpetuated in this section.

I don't know if anyone is calling it a lack of effort. But something was lacking, whether it be an inability to adapt or the inability to handle pressure, etc.

 

[Stonefly]

I don't know if anyone is calling it a lack of effort. But something was lacking, whether it be an inability to adapt or the inability to handle pressure, etc.

It is exactly what is said.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Last year, there was disagreement on whether Bathgate was bad playoff performer of the Dionne variety, or if he was a decent performer who was unlucky to play on awful teams until he was past his prime.

Anyone have anything new to add this time?

I'll let the others speak on that, but I can tell you that for some reason he had an offensively BRUTAL playoff with the Leafs, though they still won the cup.

He was moved to that team last minute and had to learn an entirely new system with new linemates, primarily defensive, instead of being the "Go to guy" like he was on the rangers, and he was at the end of his offensive prime(Age 31 was fairly old for Original 6 era). He was still tied for 2nd in goals on the cup winning Leafs squad, and afterwards, Punch Imlach called the Bathgate trade a "Key reason they won the cup", after they had been struggling down the stretch.

But certainly, his playoff record is why someone with his Hart Record is not higher up the list.

In any case, here are some old quotes.

Oops, I think I accidentally deleted my old Bathgate post. Here is the rough draft I had in my recycle bin, this will have to suffice for now:

I plan on voting Boucher and Bathgate, with three spots wide open. Here's my case for the great Ranger:

Elite offensive player. Bathgate finished in the top five in scoring for nine years in a row, an accomplishment that rivals that of Mikita, Jagr and Esposito. During that span, Bathgate scored 702 points; the only player who outscored him was Gordie Howe, with 704 points. Bathgate was an excellent goal-scorer, finishing in the top ten seven times.

Bathgate's playmaking was his greatest strength. He led the league in assists twice, and had four more years in second place. Overall Bathgate had nine straight years ranked 4th or higher in assists (easily leading the league during that span). The most impressive thing is that Bathgate accomplished this playing on a terrible team with basically no support from his teammates. Five times, Bathgate cracked the top five in scoring without any other teammate making it into the top ten. Even when he had a teammate join him, they were either one-year wonders (Dave Creighton, Red Sullivan, Andy Hebenton) or defensive forward having a career year (Dean Prentice). No player during the Original Six era scored more with less help.

Awards recognition. Bathgate earned more Hart trophy nominations than any player on this list (4 seasons). Bathgate earned four all-star nomindations during the NHL's toughest era for right-wings. During his prime the all-stars were Bathgate (2/2), Howe (4/5), Richard (1/1), Geoffrion (1/1) and Wharram (1/0).

Playoffs. Bathgate's playoff resume is best described as "incomplete". He only had the chance to play in the postseason seven times due to always being stuck on poor teams. Still, he was generally good when made the playoffs. In 1958, Bathgate scored 5 goals and 8 points in a first-round loss. Only Rocket Richard scored goals at higher pace, and three players scored more points per game.

Longevity/consistency. Bathgate played every game on the NHL schedule eleven times during his career. He missed just five games over a ten year span from 1955 to 1964.

I give the edge to Boucher because he was better defensively and in the playoffs. Bathgate deserves to be listed ahead of two other RWs up for discussion (Hull and Kurri).

Another important point is that most of Bathgate's longest playoff runs occurred at the end of, or after his prime. 59% of his total playoff games (32 of 54) occurred after he was traded away from the Rangers at age 31 after his days as an elite scorer were over.

Still, during his two longest playoff runs (at ages 31 and 33, fairly old for the Original Six era) he was 4th in goals one year and 7th in points the other. (It's also worth noting that Bathgate missed the playoffs in 1959, the year he won the Hart trophy--it's a shame we'll never know how well Bathgate could have performed that year).

I think's it worth emphasing, again, that the only other top-ten scoring teammates during Bathgate's prime were Dave Creighton, Red Sullivan, Andy Hebenton and Dean Prentice. Aside from Prentice (similar to Jere Lehtinen) all of these guys were secondary talents at best. The only other superstar from the Original Six era to play with such poor teammates was Johnny Bucyk and Bathgate easily outscored him up until when Orr arrived in Boston.

 

[pappyline]

I am a fan of Bathgate but do remember reading some quotes from his Leaf team mates that Andy wasn't a team player. I think it was in carl Brewer's book.

 

[BM67]

Bathgate's and Dionne's accomplishments compare very evenly.

They are very similar in there league top-10 points finshes as well as the number of times they led their team in scoring. They also both have rather skimpy/weak playoff resumes.

I know there is more love for Bathgate around here, but they are very much alike career wise, and Dionne actually has a slightly better resume.

As for Dionne's playoff record, consider that in the 8 years LA made the playoffs, he was the regular season scoring leader by over 20% on average. In the playoffs that becomes -2% compared to the other top scorer.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/dionnma01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bathgan01.html

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Can anybody elaborate of Bill Durnan's supposed playoff shortcomings? Because I'm having a little trouble understanding how he came to have that reputation.

In his six playoff appearances, his GAA dropped considerably three times, stayed about the same twice, and rose dramatically in his final playoff season. In terms of career playoff GAA, Durnan ranks second in the 1944-1950 span (his entire career) just behind Broda, ahead of Lumley, and well ahead of Rayner, and Brimsek. If you remove his final year, he is the leader. Obviously the GAA stat has its limitations as it can be largely team influenced, but I don't believe Montreal was a great defensive team during his career, unlike Toronto.

So what am I missing here? Based on numbers alone, Durnan looks like he at least carried his weight in the playoffs, even if he wasn't spectacular. Are there stories of him letting in bad goals at bad times, etc.?

 

[lextune]

I don't ever remember thinking that Dionne wasn't giving a full effort. So there are other opinions of people who watched him too. And it just doesn't make sense anyway. Do you honestly think a guy who can do what he did in the regular season, has that kind of drive, is going to play half heartedly in the playoffs?

I saw Dionne play.
I didn't think he was playing halfheartedly in the playoffs. He seemed to play as hard as he ever did.
Which was sort of the problem.
Right or wrong, NHL fans expect players to play a notch above their "regular" effort in the playoffs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Marcel Dionne

I don't ever remember thinking that Dionne wasn't giving a full effort. So there are other opinions of people who watched him too. And it just doesn't make sense anyway. Do you honestly think a guy who can do what he did in the regular season, has that kind of drive, is going to play half heartedly in the playoffs? His lack of results is a matter of not having a team with more depth. A one line team can be easily neutralized in a series with decent coaching. See Detroit against Crosby these last playoffs for an example of how a great player can be neutralized if a team comes up with a plan to do so. Crosby wasn't slacking but his numbers would lead some to believe he was.
Did Dionne adapt and overcome the increased attention on him? No. But that is exactly what separates him from say Lafleur. Lafleur was better at improvisation. That should be the difference between those two, not lack of effort in the playoffs.
If you can watch the 76 Canada Cup and tell me there was a lack of effort there I'd be surprised. I thought he played poorly but it wasn't because of a lack of effort. Yet his point totals may lead you to think that.

Dionne lacking effort in playoffs is a myth that is perpetuated in this section.

Marcel Dionne was a very highly skilled player but he had a predictable sameness to his game which made it easier to defend against him. The issue was not a lack of effort, rather in a multiple game playoff series it was easy to defend against him especially if a team was well coached and disciplined.

First saw Marcel Dionne play at a bantam tournament and he was very impressive but as the games progressed you could anticipate the moves. Watched players like Gilbert Perreault, Guy Lafleur at the same age and in every game you would see different moves and adaptations to different situations.

This was also evident when Dionne played against Perreault in the OHA and against Lafleur in the aborted Memorial Cup.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Andy Bathgate

Last year, there was disagreement on whether Bathgate was bad playoff performer of the Dionne variety, or if he was a decent performer who was unlucky to play on awful teams until he was past his prime.

Anyone have anything new to add this time?

We are going to start by looking at Andy Bathgate profile:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep197801.htm

Kindly read about how he blames management and circumstances. Pay special attention to his comment about the Rangers having to leave Madison Square Garden at playoff time due to the circus.

The truth:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hsppogames.cgi

During the 1956-57 season the Montreal Canadiens finished second while Bathgate's Rangers finished fourth. Normally the first round of the playoffs would start with the first two games in Montreal. As evidenced by the HSP, link above the first two games started in New York, net advantage to Bathgate's Rangers but did Andy and the Rangers take advantage? Answer later.

The horrific practice conditions described by Andy Bathgate must have been the same for his teammates but if we look at the following:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675698

we notice that Gump Worsley and Marcel Paille during the 1957-58 season had excellent SV% ratings.

Andy Bathgate's playoff performance:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bathgan01.html

1955-56. 1G 2A, 3 one point games out of 5 with the only goal a meaningless last goal of the game in a 5-3 loss.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hsppogames.cgi

1956-57. 2G 0A. Play making skills vanished. Absolute zero points in the first two games in New York when the Rangers had a chance to apply pressure. Two goals in an 8-3 loss to the Canadiens.

In both series Canadiens left wingers produced offense.

1957-58 5G 3A in six games vs the Bruins. impressive, not really as the 4th place Bruins upset the 2nd place Rangers in six games. Led by Fleming Mackell with 4G 10A. Fleming Mackell was a solid NHL player. No Hart Trophies no nine consecutive finishes amongst the Top 10 scorers but Fleming Mackell came to play every game. Evidenced by his performance against the great Canadien teams. 1957 playoffs 4G 0A, scoring four of the Bruins six goals. 1958 playoffs, 1G 4A. Much Better than Bathgate.

1961-62. Andy Bathgate led the Rangers with 84 points in 70 games or 1.2PPG and the surprising Rangers with player-coach Doug Harvey and Gump Worsley made the playoffs facing the second place Toronto Maple Leafs. Well, Andy was up to his old self come playoff time 6 games 1G 2A, .5PPG but let's looks at what the other Rangers did:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/1962.html

Earl Ingarfield, Dave Balon, Johnny Wilson, Jean-Guy Gendron, journeymen at best, plus promising rookie Rod Gilbert, outscored Bathgate, while Andy Hebenton tied him.

The 1963-64 playoff with the Leafs was kinder to Bathgate giving him a chance to play on a Stanley Cup Championship. Apologists try to explain away his less than stellar contribution, trade, learning a new defensive system, etc overlooking that otehr players traded to eventual Stanley Cup winners did not have such difficulties - Butch Goring to the islanders is an example. imlach's platitude - example of old Punch manipulating the media to maximize potential trades.
Punch moved Bathgate very quickly after one full season and another less than stellar playoff in 1965 against the Canadiens, 1G 0A in six games. Guess learning the defense was very tough. They got Bathgate for offense.

1965-66. Andy Bathgate is with the Red Wings - a veteran team that make the SC finals against the Canadiens. The Red Wings surprise and win the first two games in Montreal with Andy Bathgate contributing 1G, 2A but then the Canadiens rally and win four straight, three in Detroit, Andy Bathgate contribution the last 4 games is 1A.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hsppogames.cgi

Rather obvious that Andy Bathgate was not a playoff performer, regularly outscored by journeymen types on his and other teams. The poor practice conditions and management with the Rangers were not a factor as others performed under the same conditions while Andy Bathgate did not under significantly better conditions in Toronto and Detroit.