Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans)

[Theokritos]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 8 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 8 points, 2nd place votes worth 7 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

Vote 3 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday, December 7. You may PM votes to Theokritos starting on Sunday, December 6.

Vote 3 will be for places 9 through 12 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Jiří Holeček
Aleksey Kasatonov
Vladimir Krutov
Igor Larionov
Václav Nedomanský
Vladimir Petrov
František Pospíšil
Jan Suchý
Valeri Vasiliev

 

[Sentinel]

I think both Petrov and Larionov should be above Krutov. Consistency and longevity matter. Still no Yakushev? Damn!

 

[Theokritos]

Finally we get to talk some defencemen: Vasiliev vs Pospíšil vs Suchý should be an interesting debate. And maybe someone wants to make a case for Kasatonov?

Also, Petrov vs Larionov for the best Soviet center after Maltsev. And of course, Krutov vs the other forwards should generate some controversy.

Not to forget: who is going to be the highest ranking Czech after Martinec? Holeček or Nedomanský or one of the defencemen?

 

[Batis]

It seems like I am higher on Holecek than most. I had him second only to Tretiak last round and he enters this round as the runaway leader for me. Winning 5 best goaltender awards at the WHC while competing with Tretiak for most of your prime is in my opinion simply outstanding and a more impressive performance than any other available player in this round.

Petrov versus Nedomansky is a interesting debate. Two players with very impressive scoring achievements while having somewhat lacking voting records in their respective player of the year voting.

 

[Sanf]

I seriously wish that I would have more time for this. I try to participate bit better in this round.

I think I may had Pospisil as the highest Czech on my original list (that may have been bit too high but still he may be the highest on my list). I have always felt that Pospisil and Vasiliev were more complete defenseman than Suchy.

 

[seventieslord]

I am definitely high on Holecek and Vasiliev here.

I'm not sure why there's such a difference in opinion on Vasilev's value here as opposed to the ATD and the HOH top defensemen project. I feel like he should have already been voted in. The 33rd best center according to HOH and the 32nd best winger were both voted in over the 25th best defensemen, by a convincing margin, no less.

I'm interested to see if we're all on the same page about Krutov, or if he's going to be polarizing.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm not sure why there's such a difference in opinion on Vasilev's value here as opposed to the ATD and the HOH top defensemen project. I feel like he should have already been voted in.

Some interesting points from the preliminary thread:

Is Valeri Vasiliev a clear choice over Frantisek Pospisil for everyone?

Namely, Vasiliev's stock has dropped somewhat in my book, and Pospisil's has risen, and I really can't see much difference between them. Would even placing Pospisil higher be a crime?

Now, Vasiliev was a notorious hitter (best 'European' ever?) and was a fast & strong skater. Vellu Ketola, a bigger man than Vasiliev, always shooks his head in amazement (at least figuratively) when reminiscing Vasiliev and his strength.
However, I've recently re-watched some games from the mid-1970s, and I have to say that I'm not overly impressed by him with the puck; especially his poor/erratic shooting (on PPs etc) has caught my attention in a negative sense. He sometimes did not seem to have any sense when to shoot. Just look at the following sequences:

1975-76 Super Series, CSKA vs. the Habs
- After struggling mightily, CSKA finally gets the puck into the Habs' defensive zone, and what does Vasiliev do? He takes a shot at the nearest Montreal player, and the puck is lost once again. What other good defenceman would not have passed the puck (or faked) in that situation, so that CSKA would have finally gotten something going??? Simply poor decision-making.

Here are some more of the same, from game 1 of the 1974 Summit Series:

2nd period, Petrov wins a faceoff, and Vasiliev once more decides to take a shot, even though a Canadian player is in the way.
-Again, not a snowball's chance in hell that the shot could have ever reached the net.

Later in the period, another desperate shot by Vasiliev on the Soviet PP

I'd have to re-watch some more games to see, whether this 'habit' was really continous or not, though.

Pospisil then... Pospisil was no slouch himself, when it comes to hitting, and might have been better/more reliable with the puck.
Pospisil's (Czechoslovak) Golden Stick voting record is much better than Vasiliev's Soviet MVP one. To be fair, the Soviets had many more superstar forwards to choose from than the Czechs, and it is not the most fair comparison in the world. Vasiliev was also clearly considered the best Soviet defenceman of the 1970s - the only other dman who got some regular love from the voters was Lutchenko. However, even when taking these things into consideration, I think it's fair to say that Pospisil's MVP voting record is more impressive.

Internationally, Vasiliev has 3 IIHF directorate best defenseman awards, Pospisil 2, but one of them (1979) Vasiliev got when "Pospec" wasn't playing anymore for Team CSSR. Vasiliev has 5 all-star nods over Pospisil's 3, but on the other hand, they were 3-3 'head-to-head'*. Another thing; normally I wouldn't bring Izvestia tournament ('mini-WHC') into the discussion, but Pospisil was named the tournament's best defenceman four times (1969-71, 1975), which was exceptional in the 1960s/1970s, and all the best Soviets and Czechoslovaks played there, just like in the World Championships.
As for their international statistics, their WHC stats look almost identical, but Vasiliev played many years behind Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov, so maybe I'd give a very very slight advantage to Pospisil there. In any case, I don't think either was what I would call a great offensive defenceman, just rather a decent/good one.

At the moment, I still have Vasiliev above Pospisil - as narrowly as possible - but it wouldn't be very difficult for me to swap them.

* if head to head matters in this case; probably not, heh

 

[Theokritos]

As for Jan Suchý, the question for me is: Bobby Orr of Europe or Paul Coffey of Europe? Which label fits better in terms of balance between offensive play and defensive play?

 

[Batis]

As for Jan Suchý, the question for me is: Bobby Orr of Europe or Paul Coffey of Europe? Which label fits better in terms of balance between offensive play and defensive play?

At his best the label the Bobby Orr of Europe definitely fits better in my opinion. I really encourage all voters to watch the available games of peak Suchy on YouTube. In the 1969 game against the Soviets Suchy is absolutely amazing on both sides of the rink for example. Probably the best single game performance from any European defenceman in my opinion.

 

[Theokritos]

Pospisil's (Czechoslovak) Golden Stick voting record is much better than Vasiliev's Soviet MVP one. To be fair, the Soviets had many more superstar forwards to choose from than the Czechs, and it is not the most fair comparison in the world. Vasiliev was also clearly considered the best Soviet defenceman of the 1970s - the only other dman who got some regular love from the voters was Lutchenko. However, even when taking these things into consideration, I think it's fair to say that Pospisil's MVP voting record is more impressive.

One thing that hurts Vasiliev in this comparison is that the Soviet voters only ranked three players while the Czechoslovak voters ranked ten. If no-one thought you were one of top 3 players in the Soviet Union you got no votes, which partially explains why Soviet defencemen rarely got votes compared to their peers in Czechoslovakia. However, this does not relativizes Pospíšil's #1 finishes in 1971 and 1972 and his #3 finish in 1977, just some of the other (merely) good finishes he had in other years. So the question is: Is it more impressive that Pospíšil was twice ranked #1 among Czechoslovak players than that Vasiliev was (at best) ranked #3 and #5 among Soviet players? Or is it a wash due to the different talent pools?

 

[Batis]

One thing that hurts Vasiliev in this comparison is that the Soviet voters only ranked three players while the Czechoslovak voters ranked ten. If no-one thought you were one of top 3 players in the Soviet Union you got no votes, which partially explains why Soviet defencemen rarely got votes compared to their peers in Czechoslovakia. However, this does not relativizes Pospíšil's #1 finishes in 1971 and 1972 and his #3 finish in 1977, just some of the other (merely) good finishes he had in other years. So the question is: Is it more impressive that Pospíšil was twice ranked #1 among Czechoslovak players than that Vasiliev was (at best) ranked #3 and #5 among Soviet players? Or is it a wash due to the different talent pools?

Good points. I think that it is fair to say that Pospisil probably never would have won the Soviet player of the year award had he been a Soviet player instead. I have a hard time seeing him beating the runaway winner Firsov in 1971 or Maltsev and Kharlamov in 1972. Would his voting record have been stronger than Vasilievs? Hard to say. I am willing to say that Pospisils Czechoslovakian golden stick voting record is more impressive than Vasilievs Soviet player of the year record. But not with much. And I personally believe that Vasiliev more than makes up for that by having a stronger WHC-record. I mean 3 best defenceman awards and 5 all-star selections is clearly stronger than 2 best defenceman awards and 3 all-star selections no matter how we cut it. I think that these two defencemen are close in quality but I would give Vasiliev a small but clear edge at the moment.

 

[DN28]

Debate who´s the best defensmen of this group should be interesting. I had Suchy low (even outside of top 20) because I thought there´s nothing except of his outstanding 4 seasons. After reading his biography I changed my opinion. It seems that his peak was REALLY high and his decline after his car accident wasn´t as fast as I (we?) thought. After he came back from prison there were talks that he was even better and jokes were told that he should spent time in jail more often. When he was allowed to come back to NT in WC 1974 he did well - became the most productive d-men of his team and 2nd most productive d-men of the tournament. So why did he stop to play international games? It wasn´t necesarilly because he was not good enough. After the end of 73-74 season there was annual celebration among members of NT, Suchy got drunk as usual and told Karel Gut that he should go **** *******.

That being said, I´m still having Pospisil above him. I think his peak wasn´t that far below Suchy and his prime lasted much longer as he managed to adjust his game very well when he was aging.

I´ve read Pospisil´s bio also and I´m willing to translate the most important parts but it is kind of time-demanding. I would like to know some more about Vasiliev and Kasatonov. I had both of them higher than the Czechs but I don´t know nearly as much about them unlike Pospisil and Suchy, whose biography is especially very informative (and terribly funny )

 

[VMBM]

Good to see Krutov eligible; originally I had him at #11 and he will be in the top 3 for me in this round/vote, along with Nedo and Holecek.
Hopefully we'll concentrate on his international record (which is terrific), Soviet league record (very good) and his formidable skills rather than speculate whether he used something or not; that was already covered exclusively here, and as far as I'm concerned, absolutely nothing substantial came out of that, i.e. at best, there seems to be more hints that the Soviets cheated collectively rather than (just) Krutov.

Hopefully Batis doesn't mind, when I bring up this brilliant post about Krutov's international career as a junior. Not that we should put much (or any) weight to junior careers per se, but it clearly shows that Krutov was one of the most talented Soviet players ever and far more highly touted than Larionov was at a similar age:

Krutov/Larionov/Kurri as junior players:

77/78 Age 17
U18 European Championship
Vladimir Krutov 5 gp, 6 g, 7 a, 13 pts
Jari Kurri 4 gp, 6 g, 2 a, 8 pts (Best Forward award)
Igor Larionov 5 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts

78/79 Age 18
U20 World Championships
Vladimir Krutov 6 gp, 8 g, 6 a, 14 pts (Leading Scorer, Best Forward award)
Igor Larionov 5 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
Jari Kurri 6 gp, 2 g, 3 a, 5 pts

79/80 Age 19
U20 World Championships
Vladimir Krutov 5 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts (Leading Scorer, Best Forward award)
Jari Kurri 5 gp, 4 g, 7 a, 11 pts (2nd in scoring)
Igor Larionov 5 gp, 3 g, 3 a, 6 pts

Olympics
Vladimir Krutov 7 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts (7th in scoring)
Jari Kurri 7 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts

As a junior player Krutov was far ahead of both Kurri and Larionov on the international stage. Based on my eye test of the available footage from the 1980 Olympics he also relied far more on his speed than his strenght in his junior days. Unless someone believes that Krutov already had been singled out and was on steroids at the age of 17 or 18 I see no reason to doubt that he was one of the most naturally talented players in Soviet hockey history as opposed to only a product of steroids. And I have never seen any indication of Krutov being on steroids already as a junior player especially considering that Larionov states that all members of the Green Unit refused to accept mysterious injections prior to the 1982 World Championships.

Also that two unknown members of the Vancouver Canucks organisation said that Larionov had hinted to them that Krutov was on steroids is not exactly what I would call strong evidence. And even if it would be true it certainly does not prove that Krutov was juicing already as a junior player when he dominated the World Juniors two years in a row. No matter if the allegations against Krutov is accurate or not I strongly believe that Krutov would have been/was one of the best Soviet players of his generation with or without steroids. His junior career certainly suggest that. And personally I think that Krutovs failure to adjust to life outside of the soviet/red army system was more a case of not being able to handle freedom and the responsabilities that comes with it. But I agree that his sudden fall is mysterious and while I am far from convinced that Krutov was on steroids in his prime it is certainly possible. I highly doubt that he was as a junior player though and I strongly disagree with the notion of Krutov only being a product of steroids.

I don't think many other Soviet forwards had a better peak than Krutov (1986-88); maybe Firsov in 1967-71, Kharlamov 1972-76 and Makarov (1982-85?) are in the same ballpark. And Krutov became a star earlier than any of them; he was one of the best Soviets already at 19 in the 1979-80 season; that compensates his abrupt decline at 28-29 somewhat. It should be mentioned, though, that after the terrific start, Krutov's 1980-81 and 1981-82 seasons weren't anything amazing, and e.g. Finnish hockey writers (well, at least a writer) were criticizing him during the 1982 WHC and said that it was Krutov who might be keeping KLM from becoming a true superstar line à la MPK (played "too selfishly" and "behaved badly"). That kind of talk died out very quickly, though.

Interesting that Kasatonov is already eligible; heck, I almost thought that I was overrating him by ranking him at #25! It's just that I seemed to have rated pre-1970s players higher than most posters...
But no problem; it is easy to think Kasatonov as "Fetisov's partner", but when you watch old games, he looks really good and very reliable: a brilliant defensive defenseman, and a very good passer, who could also support attack and make an occasional rush himself. However, he will be at the bottom of my ranking in this round along with Larionov, no question about that.

Petrov will be somewhere in the middle; I think his international/domestic records are too good to be ignored, and in 1977-79, IMO he was the 2nd most important skater on Team USSR (after Mikhailov) and clearly the most defensively responsible player of his line (I will try to demonstrate that later on). There's of course that lack of big individual accolade (both domestic and international), as well as his underwhelming Soviet MVP voting, but he was a top player for about 10-11 years, which is actually quite impressive, and 'outlived' both Mikhailov and Kharlamov on the national team.

I will probably have Vasiliev higher than Pospisil. Both will be ahead of Suchy, but Suchy's very high peak is definitely something to be taken into consideration. I have to admit that I don't have a totally clear picture of him strictly as a defenceman; he was a notorious shot-blocker, we all know that, but was he a great defensive defenceman too? E.g. Kharlamov in his book says something that suggests that due to his eagerness to attack, Suchy sometimes got burned and thus cost CSSR some important goals. But IIRC, it was Kharlamov basically defending the Soviet dmen who were considered (quite rightly IMO) pretty unspectacular in the early 1970s, so he was probably nitpicking there a bit. However, the Finnish writer Jyrki Laelma also calls him "a forward" and "a goalie" rather than a defenceman:

Jyrki Laelma
(...) yet a defenceman Jan Suchy never really was: he was a forward whose other role was <to be> a goalie!

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=102684891&postcount=128

I agree with Sentinel about that big Soviet left winger; he should've been eligible already.

 

[VMBM]

Debate who´s the best defensmen of this group should be interesting. I had Suchy low (even outside of top 20) because I thought there´s nothing except of his outstanding 4 seasons. After reading his biography I changed my opinion. It seems that his peak was REALLY high and his decline after his car accident wasn´t as fast as I (we?) thought. After he came back from prison there were talks that he was even better and jokes were told that he should spent time in jail more often. When he was allowed to come back to NT in WC 1974 he did well - became the most productive d-men of his team and 2nd most productive d-men of the tournament. So why did he stop to play international games? It wasn´t necesarilly because he was not good enough. After the end of 73-74 season there was annual celebration among members of NT, Suchy got drunk as usual and told Karel Gut that he should go **** *******.

Did not get a single all-star vote, though, while three of Team CSSR's dmen (Machac, Bubla and Kuzela) did.

How well did he do in the Czechoslovak league post-1971 in your opinion?

 

[DN28]

Suchy definitely needed reliable defensive partner but I didn´t found anything suggesting that he was bad defensively during his prime. I´m sure it would be pointed out as it always was with Nedomansky. Due to his risky style of play he indeed got sometimes burned but coaches never tried to change his way. The benefits of his offensive rushes were much bigger than his occasional mistakes + playing with Jiri Holik during basically his entire career certainly helped.

Did not get a single all-star vote, though, while three of Team CSSR's dmen (Machac, Bubla and Kuzela) did.

How well did he do in the Czechoslovak league post-1971 in your opinion?

Yes that´s why it should be taken carefully. However people might have been surprised by his comeback (I think he scored hattrick or something like that in his first game after he returned) he didn´t win any league all-stars after 1971, GS voting wasn´t great and his scoring dropped too. Of course, there´s a question if politics didn´t play a role in that. But overall his decline during 72-75 definitely wasn´t as fast. I definitely think he still belonged among the best Czech d-men, perhaps among top 10 d-men in Europe. He still maintained to be the number one d-men of one of the best team in Europe - Dukla Jihlava - during this period (72-75).

Here are 3 quotes from the cover his book:

Börje Salming:
"The most, I admired the number 17 who played for you during 70´s. Yes, Suchý! He blocked a lot of shots, could attack, I wanted to play like him."

Jarri Kurri:
"From Czech players I remember Nedomanský, Pospíšil, Holeček. And Jan Suchý. Mainly his way of blocking shots. He kneeled and caught the pucks with his own body."

Scotty Bowman:
"I also took a notice of one defenseman. Smaller figure... Jan Suchý. He beautifully thought the game."

 

[Theokritos]

From the last thread:

IIRC, a Finnish sports book (Huippu-urheilun maailma 2) describes Petrov as "open and genial". I knew that Petrov could be nasty on the ice, but off the ice, I had considered/pictured him quite friendly, although stubborn and hot-tempered.

Stubborn is an adjective several sources use to describe Petrov, but Kharlamov goes a bit further in his autobiography and says that it also did affect Petrov's performance on the ice at times.

On Petrov and Mikhailov:

Kharlamov:

"They were the greatest quarellers. Anatoly Firsov called Mikhailov world champion in arguing, and he certainly was right. Boris is willing to argue the whole way through, but his strength is that he is self-critical, able to admit a mistake, to recognize when his adversary is right. (...) But Vladimir Petrov never recognizes his lapses. He can not give in to anyone or anything. I was once asked if the story is true that Vladimir played chess against Anatoly Karpov during one of our training camps. (...) Eyewitnesses claim that Vladimir lost over and over again. But he was not able to accept defeat. Knowing our centre forward, I guess his train of thought was: 'Of course Karpov is the world champion, of course he is great, but not to the degree that I can't win a single game against him!' I'd like to verify this story, but I'm afraid to ask Petrov. But if it happens to be fiction, it is very similar to the truth, for that's exactly how my linemate would have behaved in such a situation: he would not have given in.

Persistence and stubbornness – qualities close to each other. Persistence helped Petrov become a first-class hockey player. Stubbornness prevents him from achieving more. Here's a very memorable illustration: In a game against Dinamo Moscow, Petrov scored a goal on [Dinamo goaltender] Vladimir Polupanov* with a strong shot from the blue line while being close to the board and shooting from an angle. In the next game Vladimir shot the puck from the same point several times. Our efforts to convince him that it was useless were in vain. Petrov continued his attempts at the target from the distance. And even when the opponent was two men short due to penalties and played with 3 against our 5 so that he had an excellent opportunity to move the puck into a good scoring position, Petrov, getting the puck, shot from a distance. Our opponents easily mastered the puck and got it out of their zone."

Original:
Это величайшие спорщики. Анатолий Фирсов назвал Михайлова чемпионом мира по спорам, и он, конечно же, прав. Борис готов спорить до конца, но сильная его сторона заключается в том, что он самокритичен, умеет признавать свою ошибку, признавать правоту оппонента. (...) А вот Володя Петров своих промахов не признает ни за что. Он уступить не может никому и ни в чем. Как-то у меня спросили, верена ли рассказ, какая Володя играл во время одного из тренировочных сборов в шахматы с Анатолием Карповым. (...) Очевидцы утверждают, что Володя проигрывал раз за разом. Но смириться с неудачами он не мог. Догадываюсь, отлично зная нашего центрфорварда, о ходе его размышлений: конечном, Карпов – чемпион мира, конечно, он силен, но не настолько же, чтобы я не выиграл у него ни одной партии. Хочу проверить эту историю, да боюсь спрашивать у Петрова. Но если это и выдумка, то очень похожая на правду – именно так в такой ситуации и вел бы себя мой партнер: уступать он не будет.
Настойчивость и упрямство – граничащие друг с другом качества. Настойчивость помогла Володе стать первоклассным хоккеистом. Упрямство мешает ему добиваться еще большего. Вот первая вспомнившаяся иллюстрация. В игре с московским «Динамо» Петров сильнейшим броском от синей линии (причем находился он у борта, то есть бросал шайбу в ворота под углом) забил гол в ворота Владимира Полупанова. В следующем матче Володя бросал шайбу из той же точки еще несколько раз. Тщетными были наши попытки убедить его, что это неразумно. Петров продолжал попытки поразить цель издалека. И даже когда соперник остался на площадке без двух оштрафованных игроков, когда втроем защищался против нашей пятерки и у нас была, стало быть, превосходная возможность разыграть шайбу и выйти на стопроцентную для взятия ворот позицию, Петров, получив шайбу, швырнул ее издалека в ворота. Соперник, легко овладев шайбой, выбросил ее из своей зоны.

*Funny side note: Guess whom the Petrov bio from the Championat site quotes as saying Petrov's shot was "a stroke of lightning": no other than Vladimir Polupanov!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 3 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday, December 7. You may PM votes to Theokritos starting on Sunday, December 6.

Vote 3 will be for places 9 through 12 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Jiří Holeček
Aleksey Kasatonov
Vladimir Krutov
Igor Larionov
Václav Nedomanský
Vladimir Petrov
František Pospíšil
Jan Suchý
Valeri Vasiliev

Preliminary thoughts (before reading the arguments which often affect my opinion, especially in this project, where I don't pretend to be the expert):

• I see a top tier of 4 players here. In alphabetical order: Jiri Holecek, Vaclav Nedomansky, Jan Suchy, and Valeri Vasiliev
  • I don't really have much more to say about Holecek other than what was posted last round. In the end, I did end up ranking Tretiak over him last round, but think they are very close, and Holecek has a great shot at my #1 this round
  • I had Suchy and Vasiliev back to back on my original list(honestly don't remember the order) as my #2/3 defenseman of all-time. Suchy with the peak, Vasiliev with the career. Some of the more career-oriented voters might not like Suchy as much, but the man was a legend. It says something that his prime directly overlapped Nedomansky's and possibly Pospisil's, and Suchy was widely regarded as the best player on the team. Also noteworthy perhaps that Suchy has just one fewer WHC All-STar nod (edit: and one fewer directorate award) than Vasiliev, despite being retired from the National Team after his car crash.
  • Still not entirely sure what to do with Nedomansky, but he enters the round in my top 4. I actually had him 1 spot over Vasiliev last round, but maybe that will change. Domestically, he has the same issue as Petrov (great stats, not as great awards recognition), but unlike Petrov, he did get some good international recognition.
• I think we should maybe take a short break from adding more Soviet forwards. I have no problems with 5 of our top 8 being Soviet forwards, but I feel there is a significant gap in awards recognition (particularly Soviet Player of the year voting) between Makarov/Kharlamov/Firsov/Mikhailov/Maltsev and everyone left. Well, Krutov at least got a decent amount of recognition, but I feel his other issues bump him down a tier. Among Petrov/Krutov/Larionov, I definitely have Larionov last (and behind at least one unavailable Soviet forward).
• I feel Pospisil should go just a little bit behind Suchy (overlapping primes on the same team, seems like Suchy is widely remembered as better) and Vasiliev (primes at more or less the same time, Vasiliev got slightly more recognition internationally).
• Kasatonov? While I think it might be worth it to challenge the conventional wisdom that Vasiliev is ahead, I think he probably ends up that way. On the other hand, I think Kasatonov was probably close to Larionov in importance to the Green Unit, which would place near at the bottom of my list, definitely behind Krutov.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships (1954-1991)

Since we are still near the top of the list, I am only including players named in at least 3 different seasons. I'm also including Igor Larionov, who doesn't meet the standard, but is eligible this round.

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

Goaltenders

Jiri Holecek (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
• All Star Goaltender (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Vladimir Tretiak (USSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1974, 1979, 1983)
• All Star Goaltender (1975, 1979, 1983)

3 different goalies (Lindmark, Kralik, Dzurilla) received nods in 2 separate years.

Defensemen

Slava Fetisov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)
• All Star Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
• Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every WC held between 1982 and 1991 (plus 1978)

Valeri Vasiliev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1973, 1977, 1979)
• All Star Defenseman (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)

Jan Suchy (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1969, 1971)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Ragulin (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Alexei Kasatonov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1983)
• All Star Defenseman (1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1991)
• Note there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988

Frantisek Pospisil (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1972, 1976)
• All Star Defenseman (1972, 1976, 1977)

Nikolai Sologubov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Lennart Svedberg (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Forwards

Sergei Makarov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1979(3-way tie), 1985)
• All Star Forward (1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic years 1980, 1984, and 1988. Makarov was an All Star in every WC held between 1979 and 1989

Anatoli Firsov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1967, 1968, 1971)
• All Star Forward (1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Maltsev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
• All Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Vladimir Krutov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1986, 1987)
• All Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986, 1987)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic year 1984

Vladimir Martinec (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1976)
• All Star Forward (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1974)
• All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

Vladimir Petrov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Valeri Kharlamov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1972, 1973, 1976)

____
Igor Larionov

• All Star Forward (1983, 1986)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am definitely high on Holecek and Vasiliev here.

I'm not sure why there's such a difference in opinion on Vasilev's value here as opposed to the ATD and the HOH top defensemen project. I feel like he should have already been voted in. The 33rd best center according to HOH and the 32nd best winger were both voted in over the 25th best defensemen, by a convincing margin, no less.

I'm interested to see if we're all on the same page about Krutov, or if he's going to be polarizing.

Everyone who participates in the All-Time (fantasy) Draft recognizes that it's biased towards defensemen, due to supply and demand (especially demand - defensemen have always gone early before, so GMs assume they will go early again and take them to not be left out). So I don't find the ATD to be very relevant here

As for the HOH project, remember, there were a few voters who (IMO wrongly) openly judged Nedomansky based on the skills he showed in the NHL (in his 30s). And well, the less said about the Firsov discussion in the wingers project, the better.... Point being, I think its' more a case of voters in this project being higher on Nedomansky and especially Firsov than anything else.

As for Jan Suchý, the question for me is: Bobby Orr of Europe or Paul Coffey of Europe? Which label fits better in terms of balance between offensive play and defensive play?

At his best the label the Bobby Orr of Europe definitely fits better in my opinion. I really encourage all voters to watch the available games of peak Suchy on YouTube. In the 1969 game against the Soviets Suchy is absolutely amazing on both sides of the rink for example. Probably the best single game performance from any European defenceman in my opinion.

In addition to being the only defenseman I know of other than Orr to ever lead his nation's top domestic league in scoring (I'm not 100% sure it has never happened in lesser hockey nations, but I don't think it has), profiles of Suchy mention that he is the first European defenseman to make shot blocking a big part of his game.

Here are some old posts by hfboards user Der Kaiser on Jan Suchy. Der Kaiser is (was?) a Swedish poster, who talked to quite a few Swedes who had watched Suchy play extensively in his prime, including one member of the Swedish National Team who played against him.

Gifted offensive player while also an apt defender. Leads all defensemen in scoring in the Czech top division and was top scoring defensemen every year from 1967-1972, leading his team to six consecutive league titles, and then a seventh one in 1974.

Won the golden stick award given to the best player in Czechoslovakia for it's two first years and was a WHC all-star for 4 straight years, winning the defenseman directorate award two of those years. It's widely considered that he should have three of those as Lennart Svedberg beat him out in 1970. Svedberg himself said that he was the best defenseman he had ever seen.

The title European Bobby Orr stems alot from his offensive ability to join the attack as a 4th forward, but also from the time of his dominance. Jan Suchy was undoubtedly the best defender in Europe for the late 1960s and early 1970s.

I probably listed Jan Suchy higher than anyone else (TDMM - on the HOH defensemen project). Thing is there isn't really much to say in terms of statistics and awards that hasn't been said numerous times. He dominated the European amateur scene during the late 60s and early 70s. The reason I hold him very highly is from what I hear from people who were around back then. Jan Suchy seems to have been idolized nearly as much in Sweden as in Czechoslovakia. Ask people from back then and they'll say Jan Suchy was something else. Never before seen (at least on this side of the pond.) offensive output and skating ability. Tenacious defense and the sacrifice of his body to cover and block shots. I can't recall having seen any list of Czech hockey players that doesn't list Suchy as their top defenseman.

A couple of years ago I spoke to a personal acquaintance of mine who played on the 1968 Swedish Olympic team. He was convinced that he was playing against one of the best players of all time. He claims that he has still not seen a European hockey player who had such poise, elegance and vision on the ice.

Call it a hunch, or gut feeling. But I think that Jan Suchy's game would translate to virtually any era of hockey, anywhere. His career never got back on the same illustrious track after the car crash that he caused. Who knows what might have transcribed had his car, and consequently his career, taken a different path in 1971. I reckon we'd be talking of him in the same sense as we do Fetisov or Lidström. His career may not live up to the title of 'Europe's Bobby Orr'. But the reason for the title is not his career, but his game. I don't often reside to hunches, but in this case, I am going to list Jan Suchy highly. A truly unique player. Now he doesn't deserve a high rank for what he could have been, he deserves to be considered because of what he was. Czechoslovakias greatest defenseman of all time.

It's too bad that I have had two rough weeks which made me completely miss last week's poll and has made miss much of this discussion about Jan Suchy.

I've stated it earlier but I cannot make a coherent case for Jan Suchy that involves any kind of awards or statistics. It's something that centers around an opinion given by plusandminus: "The main reason Suchy is highly regarded is because he was considered a great player, who stood out compared to the other players he played among. He was the "Bobby Orr of Europe". He is highly regarded because people experienced that when watching him play."

Speaking to several older people who watched international hockey extensively in the 60s and 70s this is what they all say. Sure there was Mikhailov, Kharlamov, Ragulin, Vasiliev, Popisil, Martinec, Svedberg. But Suchy was something else. I've spoken to several really credible hockey enthusiasts who honestly believe that Jan Suchy was the best hockey player they have ever seen play. I know that it's just anecdotal and doesn't really mean much to you, but it does to me. My feeling is that if Jan Suchy had performed at the WCs the way he did for, let's say 10 years instead of 4, then he'd be discussed as the best player to play on the international scene, bar none. As it stands, he is routinely considered Czechoslovakia's best defenseman of all time, I think this list should warrant a place for such a player.

Suchy's game during those years was like Fetisov's, absolutely dominant. In terms of sheer ability I rank Suchy higher than both Kasatonov and Vasiliev, I understand that his career is underwhelming compared to theirs though.

It is a list that wants to include the top defensemen to exist throughtout the history of ice hockey. I'd be very sceptic to such a list that doesn't include Jan Suchy.

I want to make extra clear that this, for me, is not a what-if scenario. If it would have been a what-if scenario, based on his performance from 1968 to 1971, he would have ended up in my top 10 (TDMM - among all defensemen) in contest with Slava Fetisov.

 

[Batis]

One interesting thing with Suchy is that it seems like the international media liked him more than the directorate did. Suchy led all defencemen in the all-star voting four tournaments in a row between 1968 and 1971 while he only won the directorate award in two of those tournaments. So if the media would have decided the best defenceman instead Suchy would have won the award four times.

 

[Theokritos]

BTW, did the 1974 Golden Stick voting happen before or after Nedomansky defected? One would easily think that it might have had an effect on the voting, if it indeed was conducted after his defection

I can't tell for sure, but we know the Soviet voting results were always published in late May/early June during that time. To remain in the year 1974, "Football-Hockey" published them on June 9th, one month after the season had officially ended (with the USSR Cup Final on May 8th). The 1973-1974 season in Czechoslovakia ended with the last round of domestic championship games on May 14th. The most reasonable assumption would be that the (last round of) Golden Stick voting was conducted in the second half of May/early June 1974.

Nedomanský defected while on vacation in Switzerland in mid-July 1974. (He signed his WHA contract in Berne on July 14th.) So we can't tell with last certainty, but I think it's very likely the voting had been finished and published by the time of defection.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I can't tell for sure, but we know the Soviet voting results were always published in late May/early June during that time. To remain in the year 1974, "Football-Hockey" published them on June 9th, one month after the season had officially ended (with the USSR Cup Final on May 8th). The 1973-1974 season in Czechoslovakia ended with the last round of domestic championship games on May 14th. The most reasonable assumption would be that the (last round of) Golden Stick voting was conducted in the second half of May/early June 1974.

Nedomanský defected while on vacation in Switzerland in mid-July 1974. (He signed his WHA contract in Berne on July 14th.) So we can't tell with last certainty, but I think it's very likely the voting had been finished and published by the time of defection.

If it is true that all records of Nedomansky (statistical and otherwise) were wiped from the record books after he defected, then I would imagine his Golden Stick voting would have been wiped before it was released. It must have been published before he defected.

 

[Theokritos]

One interesting thing with Suchy is that it seems like the international media liked him more than the directorate did. Suchy led all defencemen in the all-star voting four tournaments in a row between 1968 and 1971 while he only won the directorate award in two of those tournaments. So if the media would have decided the best defenceman instead Suchy would have won the award four times.

Without restoring to a potential conspiracy, it's noticeable the directorate award has never gone to the same player (neither defenceman nor goaltender or forward) more than two times in a row since it was first awared 60 years ago. It seems they like to spread it around a bit.

 

[VMBM]

I can't tell for sure, but we know the Soviet voting results were always published in late May/early June during that time. To remain in the year 1974, "Football-Hockey" published them on June 9th, one month after the season had officially ended (with the USSR Cup Final on May 8th). The 1973-1974 season in Czechoslovakia ended with the last round of domestic championship games on May 14th. The most reasonable assumption would be that the (last round of) Golden Stick voting was conducted in the second half of May/early June 1974.

Nedomanský defected while on vacation in Switzerland in mid-July 1974. (He signed his WHA contract in Berne on July 14th.) So we can't tell with last certainty, but I think it's very likely the voting had been finished and published by the time of defection.

It would not be a surprise, of course, when looking at his voting results in the previous years.

However, the 1973-74 season looks easily Nedomansky's best, domestic and international combined: winning the domestic scoring title by twenty points and being named the best forward at the WHC (although Martinec got more all-star votes), and yet there were three forwards ahead of him in the GS voting; his 'lack of team play' or whatever it was must have been really bad that season, huh? Just doesn't make sense to me.