Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[seventieslord]

IMPORTANT NOTE: I will NOT be collecting votes for every vote this time. The second post of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to (it will be either seventieslord or TheDevilMadeMe). If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 7-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
• Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone else who wishes to participate will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2) to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Sunday, November 4th. You may PM votes to me (seventieslord) starting on November 2nd.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 9 candidates this time.

Vote 1 will be for places 5 through 8 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Clint Benedict
Frank Brimsek
Turk Broda
Martin Brodeur
Ken Dryden
Bill Durnan
Bernie Parent
Terry Sawchuk
Vladislav Tretiak

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nice to see Hall go in ahead of Sawchuk - I think that's the right choice.

Brodeur, Sachuk, and Dryden should all be pretty automatic in this vote, and that's the order I put them in.

We've got the WW2 group of Brimsek, Broda, and Durnan all together. Should be an intersting discussion, especially between Brimsek and Durnan. I've got Broda way behind Brimsek and Durnan, who are close.

Benedict gets really over-rated because of his GAA. It's becoming pretty clear that he was not actually the best goalie of his era.

I don't think Tretiak or Parent are even worth discussing at this point. Neither is Broda, but he's in with two contemporaires, so he'll get talked about.

In my opinion, Brimsek and Durnan should easily take the 4th and 5th spots, but who takes which one should be intersting!

 

[tarheelhockey]

My reflex reaction is that Benedict, Broda and Parent are the weakest candidates here.

Agreed that Brodeur, Sawchuk, Dryden are a notch above the pack.


In my mind that leaves Brimsek, Durnan and Tretiak to fight over the 4th spot.

 

[Dreakmur]

My reflex reaction is that Benedict, Broda and Parent are the weakest candidates here.

I'm expecting a lot of support for Benedict, since he's always been a top-10 guy. The argument for him that high, and I've agreed with it, has always been that he was the clear best pre-WW2 goalie, and you can't have him outside the top-10.

Recent research has shown that he was not actually viewed as the clear-cut best goalie during his career. I think he probably was the best, but not by nearly as much as perviously thought.

 

[MXD]

Thoughts to start

Tretiak and Parent will certainly end up last for me. I don't think Turk Broda can get in Top-4 position either.

 

[vecens24]

My reflex reaction is that Benedict, Broda and Parent are the weakest candidates here.

Agreed that Brodeur, Sawchuk, Dryden are a notch above the pack.


In my mind that leaves Brimsek, Durnan and Tretiak to fight over the 4th spot.

This.

I think there might be an argument for Brimsek making that a top 4 instead of a top 3 though. I know Sturminator particularly posted some stuff in the Dishing the Dirt thread on the ATD board that really pointed to Brimsek standing out.

And yeah....Dreakmur is right about Benedict the more I read. I still think he was better than Vezina by a small amount and the best goalie of his generation, but they should be very close to each other in the rankings. I do think he's stronger than Broda though, whose appearance I am surprised by.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Preliminary thoughts on the new candidates:

Should be a great battle between the 1940s guys - Brimsek, Broda, and Durnan. If any of them distinguishes himself, I think he has a great case for the top 8. I used to favor Durnan because of all stars. Then I favored Broda because he usually beat Durnan head to head in the playoffs and backstopped a dynasty without a single HHOF defenseman. Also, keep in mind that 2 of Durnan's 6 First Teams were during World War 2, when literally every other NHL goalie (including Broda and Brimsek) were in the military.

Currently favoring Brimsek - consistency, longevity, and there is a very legitimate case that World War 2 robbed him of backstopping his own dynasty. Keep in mind that when these three played, 1st Team All Star = lowest GAA every single year. I know Sturminator is a big advocate for Brimsek - hope he can post more in this thread.

I need to be convinced that Tretiak was clearly better than Holecek to rate him towards the top of my list. I'm not currently convinced.

Now that google archives makes it easier to read contemporary newspaper articles, it's quite clear that people who saw Clint Benedict play thought his contemporary Georges Vezina was the best goaltender of the era. Is ranking Benedict above Vezina based off of wins, GAA, and shutouts like someone 100 years from now ranking Brodeur over Hasek because of those stats? Or were the contemporaries biased because Vezina played an elegant standup style, while Benedict was ahead of his time with his flopping to the ice (which was basically considered cheating back then)?

I'm pretty comfortable ranking the North American 1970s goalies as Dryden first, then Parent, then Esposito. But how far behind Dryden does Parent go?

 

[kmad]

I'm estimating that I'll be ranking Parent a fair bit higher than everyone else. His peak was unreal.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Here's what I'm starting with - will be interesting to see what happens from here (my first-vote rankings changed quite a bit):

Martin Brodeur
Terry Sawchuk
Ken Dryden
Turk Broda
Frank Brimsek
Clint Benedict
Bernie Parent
Bill Durnan
Vladislav Tretiak

 

[MXD]

Here's what I'm starting with - will be interesting to see what happens from here (my first-vote rankings changed quite a bit):

Martin Brodeur
Terry Sawchuk
Ken Dryden
Turk Broda
Frank Brimsek
Clint Benedict
Bernie Parent
Bill Durnan
Vladislav Tretiak

I'm 100% convinced that you have the first and the last right.

And probably the fifth as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Adaptability

Preliminary thoughts on the new candidates:

Should be a great battle between the 1940s guys - Brimsek, Broda, and Durnan. If any of them distinguishes himself, I think he has a great case for the top 8. I used to favor Durnan because of all stars. Then I favored Broda because he usually beat Durnan head to head in the playoffs and backstopped a dynasty without a single HHOF defenseman. Also, keep in mind that 2 of Durnan's 6 First Teams were during World War 2, when literally every other NHL goalie (including Broda and Brimsek) were in the military.

Currently favoring Brimsek - consistency, longevity, and there is a very legitimate case that World War 2 robbed him of backstopping his own dynasty. Keep in mind that when these three played, 1st Team All Star = lowest GAA every single year. I know Sturminator is a bad advocate for Brimsek - hope he can post more in this thread.

I need to be convinced that Tretiak was clearly better than Holecek to rate him towards the top of my list. I'm not currently convinced.

Now that google archives makes it easier to read contemporary newspaper articles, it's quite clear that people who saw Clint Benedict play thought his contemporary Georges Vezina was the best goaltender of the era. Is ranking Benedict above Vezina based off of wins, GAA, and shutouts like someone 100 years from now ranking Brodeur over Hasek because of those stats? Or were the contemporaries biased because Vezina played an elegant standup style, while Benedict was ahead of his time with his flopping to the ice (which was basically considered cheating back then)?

I'm pretty comfortable ranking the North American 1970s goalies as Dryden first, then Parent, then Esposito. But how far behind Dryden does Parent go?

If you limit the Tretiak / Holecek discussion to Europe then you have a close race. But they also played against NA players and in NA.

Tretiak made the necessary adjustments within 10 minutes of the first game of the 1972 Summit Series and continued making the necessary adjustments thru 1979 when the offenses were quite different than 1972 and 1981 when the Gretzky influence had taken hold.

Holecek never adjusted in 1976 during the Canada Cup and their is no evidence that he would have throughout his career.

Brimsek, Broda and Durnan. One post Red Line goalie - Durnan. Two that stradled the two eras. Broda was pretty well a flatline performer across the two eras. Brimsek was stronger pre Red Line era goalie.

Durnan lacks the longevity but brought an ambidextrous novelty. On basically a top heavy 6-8 player team he accomplished as much or more than Glenn Hall with the 1959-1967 Hawks.

Brimsek is closer to Gardiner and Thompson than Durnan and Broda.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 in Hart voting

name|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|total
Martin Brodeur|0|0|3|2|2|7
Terry Sawchuk|0|0|1|3|0|4
Frank Brimsek|0|1|1|0|1|3
Bill Durnan|0|1|1|0|1|3
Ken Dryden|0|1|0|2|0|3
Bernie Parent|0|1|0|1|0|2
Clint Benedict|0|0|1|0|0|1
Turk Broda|0|0|0|1|0|1

Note that the Hart Trophy only existed for the last 6 years of Benedict's 17 year professional career.

Junk Stat for Team Success*

name|cups|finals|smythes|total
Turk Broda|5|7|1|13
Terry Sawchuk|4|7|2|13
Ken Dryden|6|6|1|13
Clint Benedict|4|5|0|9
Martin Brodeur|3|5|0|8
Bernie Parent|2|2|2|6
Frank Brimsek|2|4|0|6
Bill Durnan|2|3|0|5

*I'm only counting Cups for which a goalie played the majority of his team's games. Conn Smythes include Retro Conn Smythes, as determined by SIHR and the HHOF committee. Obviously, counting Cups and finals will be biased towards goalies who played in a smaller league

I'll look at All Star Teams in a separate post, as it is one of the most important sources of information for the 1940s guys.

 

[MXD]

Brimsek is closer to Gardiner and Thompson than Durnan and Broda.

Bolded should have been up for voting, so having Brimsek here makes sense.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

If you limit the Tretiak / Holecek discussion to Europe then you have a close race. But they also played against NA players and in NA.

Tretiak made the necessary adjustments within 10 minutes of the first game of the 1972 Summit Series and continued making the necessary adjustments thru 1979 when the offenses were quite different than 1972 and 1981 when the Gretzky influence had taken hold.

Holecek never adjusted in 1976 during the Canada Cup and their is no evidence that he would have throughout his career.

Brimsek, Broda and Durnan. One post Red Line goalie - Durnan. Two that stradled the two eras. Broda was pretty well a flatline performer across the two eras. Brimsek was stronger pre Red Line era goalie.

Durnan lacks the longevity but brought an ambidextrous novelty. On basically a top heavy 6-8 player team he accomplished as much or more than Glenn Hall with the 1959-1967 Hawks.

Brimsek is closer to Gardiner and Thompson than Durnan and Broda.

Only seven seasons for Durnan.

Yet led the league in Goals Against 6 times. Pretty good percentage, no matter who he played for or when.

Also led in GA in the playoffs 3 of the 6 years he played in them.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Two Factors

Bolded should have been up for voting, so having Brimsek here makes sense.

Two factors. Longevity and Regular Season vs Playoffs. Gardiner has a playoff edge and that is it. Weak regular season results and 200+ fewer games overall.

Brimsek is about 4-7 spots too high.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Postseason All Star Teams - Brimsek, Broda, and Durnan

IMPORTANT NOTE - From 1935-1956, the 1st Team All Star was the goalie who led the league in GAA 100% of the time. The 2nd Team All Star was NOT always the goalie who was 2nd. Does this mean we should take 2nd Teams as seriously as 1st Teams for this era?

"3rd Team All Stars" are unofficial, but are based off the same pool of votes that determine 1st and 2nd Team. We have them for every season of the careers of these goalies.

Frank Brimsek
1st Team All Star (1939, 1942)
2nd Team All Star (1940, 1941, 1943, 1946, 1947, 1948)

Brimsek was top 2 in All Star voting every year for a decade starting in his rookie year (1939), except the 2 season he missed World War 2. He never finished 3rd in voting.

Turk Broda
1st Team All Star (1941, 1948)
2nd Team All Star (1942)
3rd Team All Star (1943, 1947, 1949, 1950)

Broda was a rookie in 1937, but not an All Star until 1941. He was top 3 in All Star voting every year for a decade except the 3 seasons he missed due to World War 2. (He only played 16 games in 1945-46, as a late return from the war).

Bill Durnan
1st Team All Star (1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1950)
3rd Team All Star (1948)

Durnan's career lasted only 7 seasons, but he was a 1st Team All Star all 6 times his team made the playoffs, and 3rd in voting the 1 season his team didn't. Two important caveats:

1) See above - the 1st Team AS seemed to automatically go to the leader in GAA.

2) His 1944 and 1945 All Star Teams were literally against AHL competition, and his 1946 All Star Team wasn't much better. Every other NHL starter from 1943 went off to war for 1944 and 1945 (including the only 3 to get All Star votes in 1943 - Johnny Mowers, Frank Brimsek, and Turk Broda), and Durnan was left to beat up on what was left. Durnan's 1946 All Star Team wasn't much better, as Brimsek (34 of 50 games) and Broda (16 of 50 games) arrived late from the war. Brimsek was a 2nd Teamer, despite only playing 68% of the games in an era where starters usually played 100%

Here's an article from the beginning of the 1946-47 season:

With the return of Johnny Mowers, completing the old "Big Three" of National Hockey League netminding, Goalie Bill Durnan of the Stanley Cup Montreal Canadiens may as well prepare now for a first-class struggle to defend his stranglehold on the Vezina trophy for these last three years

Durnan, like the Canadiens themselves, has drawn accusations of "ersatz king" of the netminders from some observers, who contended through the latter war years that the test of greatness for both the team and its individuals will come in this season when the roster of returning stars from the service is completed.
...
The other two of goaltending's big three, Frankie Brimsek of Boston and Walter (Turk) Broda of Toronto Maple Leafs rejoined their clubs late last season and this will be their first full test. Now Manager Jack Adams of Detroit Red Wings has decided that the 31 year old Mowers is "ready to go".

That means the old big 3 and Johnny-come-lately Durnan will all be showing their wares tonight when the NHL stages its first all-out hockey night of the season that started last Wednesday.

Associated Press via the Calgary Herald, Oct 26, 1946

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Two factors. Longevity and Regular Season vs Playoffs. Gardiner has a playoff edge and that is it. Weak regular season results and 200+ fewer games overall.

Brimsek is about 4-7 spots too high.

But Brimsek had great longevity as an elite player (top 2 in All Star voting every season he played for a decade in an era where the 1st Team always went to the GAA leader), and he was very good in the playoff for a Bruins team that was destroyed by World War 2.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All Star Teams for Sawchuk, Dryden, Parent, and Brodeur

We have 3rd Teams for every season, but 1952, 1953, 1958, and 1959. Sawchuk was a 1st or 2nd Teamer in 1952, 1953, and 1959, so he's only missing one possible 3rd Team All Star here. We have the complete records for everyone else.

Terry Sawchuk
1st Team All Star (1951, 1952, 1953)
2nd Team All Star (1954, 1955, 1959, 1963)
"3rd Team" All Star (1957, 1960)

Ken Dryden
1st Team All Star (1973, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979)
2nd Team All Star (1972)

Dryden finished 4th in All Star voting in 1975, the only full season of his career when he was not a 1st or 2nd Teamer. He sat out 1974 over a contract dispute.

Bernie Parent
1st Team All Star (1974, 1975)

Parent received a handful of All Star votes on a few other occasions, but the only other season he received more than a handful was 1978, when he finished 5th in voting.

Martin Brodeur
1st Team All Star (2003, 2004, 2007)
2nd Team All Star (1997, 1998, 2006, 2008)
"3rd Team" All Star (1996, 2000, 2001, 2010)

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm expecting a lot of support for Benedict, since he's always been a top-10 guy. The argument for him that high, and I've agreed with it, has always been that he was the clear best pre-WW2 goalie, and you can't have him outside the top-10.

Recent research has shown that he was not actually viewed as the clear-cut best goalie during his career. I think he probably was the best, but not by nearly as much as perviously thought.

From what I can gather, the truth is, Benedict, and Vezina should be ranked this high, and Lehman should be up for voting very soon. The realization that Benedict isn't the best of his era should in no way lower, but it should instead raise the entire generation.

Consider this, both Benedict and Vezina had at least 15 pro seasons, most of which at an elite level. This is fantastic longevity by any era. Longevity occurs because either a) More jobs are available. b) The next generation is weaker. c) Medicine and training enable a longer peak. And d) They are great players.

a) While pro jobs were in a constant state of flux, there were usually around 8 major pro teams at any given time. Sometimes 6 or 7, sometimes 10-11. But no one ever challenged Benedict off a top team.

b) While the next generation was weaker, players like Hainsworth and Connell played until a ripe old age in a league with less and less jobs. Granted, the depression era is one of the weakest. I feel this demonstrates that the generation nipping at their heels was in no way notable weak. No weaker than the Luongo/Kipper generation or the Crozier/Giacommin generation and no one punishes Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Plante, Sawchuk and Hall for that.

c) I think it's laughable to think Benedict had any sort of edge in extending his career over latter goalies.

d) The biggest factor.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Longevity

But Brimsek had great longevity as an elite player (top 2 in All Star voting every season he played for a decade in an era where the 1st Team always went to the GAA leader), and he was very good in the playoff for a Bruins team that was destroyed by World War 2.

Drifting into Glenn Hall territory, yet fewer 1st ASTs, more SCs, and like Hall a losing playoff record 32W-36L:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/brimsfr01.html

Durnan has a more impressive 1st AST record, same # of SCs

Question is whether we are at the very good level already or are we still at the excellent plus level.

 

[MXD]

Drifting into Glenn Hall territory, yet fewer 1st ASTs, more SCs, and like Hall a losing playoff record 32W-36L:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/brimsfr01.html

Durnan has a more impressive 1st AST record, same # of SCs

Question is whether we are at the very good level already or are we still at the excellent plus level.

...I think "very good" should start to apply when guys like Miikaa Kiprusoff or Dave Kerr or would be available for voting. Not Brimsek!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Drifting into Glenn Hall territory, yet fewer 1st ASTs, more SCs, and like Hall a losing playoff record 32W-36L:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/brimsfr01.html

Durnan has a more impressive 1st AST record, same # of SCs

Question is whether we are at the very good level already or are we still at the excellent plus level.

Keep in mind that the Montreal Canadiens were much less affected by World War 2 than any other team. So the fact that they (and Durnan) lost the 1945 Cup stands out to me as much as the fact that they won the 1944 and 1946 Cups. The rest of the league was starting to recover from World War 2 in 1946, but wasn't there yet.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nice to see Hall go in ahead of Sawchuk - I think that's the right choice.

Brodeur, Sachuk, and Dryden should all be pretty automatic in this vote, and that's the order I put them in.

We've got the WW2 group of Brimsek, Broda, and Durnan all together. Should be an intersting discussion, especially between Brimsek and Durnan. I've got Broda way behind Brimsek and Durnan, who are close.

Benedict gets really over-rated because of his GAA. It's becoming pretty clear that he was not actually the best goalie of his era.

I don't think Tretiak or Parent are even worth discussing at this point. Neither is Broda, but he's in with two contemporaires, so he'll get talked about.

In my opinion, Brimsek and Durnan should easily take the 4th and 5th spots, but who takes which one should be intersting!

I'm expecting a lot of support for Benedict, since he's always been a top-10 guy. The argument for him that high, and I've agreed with it, has always been that he was the clear best pre-WW2 goalie, and you can't have him outside the top-10.

Recent research has shown that he was not actually viewed as the clear-cut best goalie during his career. I think he probably was the best, but not by nearly as much as perviously thought.

Which one is it?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Different NHL

Keep in mind that the Montreal Canadiens were much less affected by World War 2 than any other team. So the fact that they (and Durnan) lost the 1945 Cup stands out to me as much as the fact that they won the 1944 and 1946 Cups. The rest of the league was starting to recover from World War 2 in 1946, but wasn't there yet.

Yet we are talking about a radically different NHL - check the Blackhawks 1945-46 thru 1949-50 offensive power from basically a non-playoff team. Goalies had to perform.

How did - Durnan, Broda and Brimsek perform?

Durnan with a weak bottom third of the team led the league in GAA, winning six Vezinas and two SCs, Broda on a team with zero HHOF defensemen won 4 SCs thru 1951 with one Vezina. Brimsek has the ASTs - 2nd and one SC Final.

Pre Red Line, no Durnan. Brimsek has the edge on Broda, 2-1 SCs and Vezinas plus a Calder in fewer seasons. Yet an argument could be made that the Bruins and the Leafs from the era underachieved.

Comes down to how much weight is given to each quality.