Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 8 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 8 points, 2nd place votes worth 7 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday, November 30. You may PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe starting on Sunday, November 29.

Vote 2 will be for places 5 through 8 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Jiří Holeček
Aleksandr Maltsev
Vladimír Martinec
Boris Mikhailov
Vladimir Petrov
Václav Nedomanský
Vladislav Tretiak
Valeri Vasiliev

 

[Theokritos]

Some interesting comparisons to be expected here:

Tretiak vs Holeček: who is best non-NHL goaltender?
Martinec vs Nedomanský: who is the best Czech forward?
Maltsev vs Nedomanský: both played center for their club teams, both split time between C and RW with their national teams. Both highly regarded internationally.

 

[canucks4ever]

Nedomansky and Mikhailov are the same age. Nedomansky was clearly better from 1964-1969, Mikhailov's career took off when he started playing with Petrov and Kharlamov. Then Nedomansky was a point per game player at age 34-36 on the deadwings. He's better than Mikhailov

 

[tarheelhockey]

Whichever of Tretiak and Holocek wins the goalie battle has to be a contender for #1 here, right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Some interesting comparisons to be expected here:

Tretiak vs Holeček: who is best non-NHL goaltender?
Martinec vs Nedomanský: who is the best Czech forward?
Maltsev vs Nedomanský: both played center for their club teams, both split time between C and RW with their national teams. Both highly regarded internationally.

Yes. And you could expand that to who is the best Czechoslovak player, between those two and Holecek (I'm assuming Suchy's short prime is why he isn't in the conversation now).

Among the 3 new candidates, I find Petrov to be the least inspiring. Fantastic domestic stats, but his Soviet Player of the Year record is dwarfed by his contemporaries Maltsev and Mikhailov, and he seems to have less star power than them in general. At the moment, I have Maltsev/Mikhailov a tier over Vasiliev/Petrov, which means the last 2 are the least likely guys this round to make my top 8.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships (1954-1991)

Since we are still near the top of the list, I am only including players named in at least 3 different seasons. I'm also including Boris Mikhailov, who doesn't meet the standard, but is eligible this round.

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

Goaltenders

Jiri Holecek (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
• All Star Goaltender (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Vladimir Tretiak (USSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1974, 1979, 1983)
• All Star Goaltender (1975, 1979, 1983)

3 different goalies (Lindmark, Kralik, Dzurilla) received nods in 2 separate years.

Defensemen

Slava Fetisov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)
• All Star Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
• Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every WC held between 1982 and 1991 (plus 1978)

Valeri Vasiliev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1973, 1977, 1979)
• All Star Defenseman (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)

Jan Suchy (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1969, 1971)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Ragulin (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Alexei Kasatonov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1983)
• All Star Defenseman (1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1991)
• Note there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988

Frantisek Pospisil (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1972, 1976)
• All Star Defenseman (1972, 1976, 1977)

Nikolai Sologubov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Lennart Svedberg (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Forwards

Sergei Makarov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1979(3-way tie), 1985)
• All Star Forward (1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic years 1980, 1984, and 1988. Makarov was an All Star in every WC held between 1979 and 1989

Anatoli Firsov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1967, 1968, 1971)
• All Star Forward (1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Maltsev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
• All Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Vladimir Krutov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1986, 1987)
• All Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986, 1987)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic year 1984

Vladimir Martinec (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1976)
• All Star Forward (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1974)
• All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

Vladimir Petrov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Valeri Kharlamov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1972, 1973, 1976)

Boris Mikhailov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1973, 1979(3-way tie))*
• All Star Forward (1973, 1979)

*Tumba is the only other one to be named Directorate Best Forward twice. 10 other forwards were named All-Star forward twice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My posts on Jiri Holecek from the HOH Top Goaltenders project. Note that Tretiak had already been added to the list before Holecek had become available to discuss.

Jiri Holecek

All of this has been posted elsewhere during the goalie project, but now that Holecek is up for voting, it's time to collect it all in one post. Holecek didn't do much outside the eight season stretch from 1971 to 1978, but what an eight years it was!

When Holecek was the primary starter for Czechoslovakia (1971-1978), they performed almost as well as the (on paper) superior USSR team in the World Championships

USSR: 5 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze
CSSR: 3 golds, 4 silvers, 1 bronze
Sweden: 0 golds, 2 silvers, 5 bronze
Canada: 0 goals, 0 silvers, 1 bronze

Canada didn't compete in the WCs for the majority of this time frame, in protest over the then-prohibition on professional players.

Holecek was the dominant Czechoslovakian goalie during this high point of Czechoslovak hockey, based on awards voting

Via Sanf, TIP magazine considered Holecek the best goalie in the domestic league for 7 of 8 years. Holecek was selected the All-Star goalie in the Extraliga in 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, and 1976. Dzurilla was selected the All-Star goalie in the Extraliga in 1969, 1970, and 1977: http://statshockey.webnode.cz/all-stars/extraliga/. All Star Teams were replaced by a "best goalie" awarded by TIP magainze after 1977. Holecek was selected best goalie in 1978, his final year on the national team. http://statshockey.webnode.cz/all-stars/top/.

Holecek led all goalies in Golden Stick voting for the best player in Czechoslovakia 6 of 8 seasons, including 1 win and 2 2nd place finishes to Vladimir Martinec, often considered the 2nd best Czech forward after Jagr. Via TheoKritos, Here are all the goalies who placed in Golden Stick voting during this time frame:
1969: 5 Dzurilla, 14 Miroslav Lacký, 15 Miroslav Termer.
1970: 4 Dzurilla, 12 Holeček, 13 Lacký, 16 Pavel Wohl.
1971: 5 Holeček, 12 Dzurilla, 15 Jiří Crha, 17 Vladimír Nadrchal, 21 Marcel Sakač.
1972: 3 Dzurilla, 5 Holeček, 25 Nadrchal, 26 Crha, 28 Jiří Kralík and Miroslav Krása, 34 Sakač, 36 Termer.
1973: 5 Holeček, 11 Crha, 22 Sakač, 29 Krása, 39 Wohl.
1974: 1 Holeček, 15 Crha, 22 Pavol Svitana, 31 Dzurilla, 33 Termer, 39 Krása, 41 Miroslav Kapoun.
1975: 2 Holeček, 14 Crha.
1976: 2 Holeček, 9 Dzurilla, 20 Svitana, 23 Crha, 30 Sakač.
1977: 6 Dzurilla, 8 Holeček, 17 Kralík, 23 Crha, 29 Sakač, 32 Svitana.
1978: 2 Holeček, 15 Dzurilla, 17 Kralík, 19 Crha, 37 Ivan Podešva, 42 Petr Ševela, 46 Milan Kolísek.

Holecek, not Tretiak, was considered the best goalie in Europe in the mid 1970s

World Championship All Star Teams

The World Championships of Ice Hockey at the time featured all the best players in Europe and were held every year. Therefore, they are the largest sample size of competition against Europe as a whole. In the 1970s, when they were both at their peak's, Jiri Holecek generally outperformed Tretiak at the World Championships

Tretiak (USSR)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1974, 1979, 1983)
•World Championships All Star (1975, 1979, 1983)

Jiri Holecek (Czech)
World Championships Best Goalie (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
•World Championships All Star (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Tretiak and Holecek overlapped as starters for their national teams from 1972-1978. In that 7 years, Holecek was named best goalie 4 times, and Tretiak just once.

Anecdotes

Anecdotally, Holecek (not Tretiak) was considered the best goalie in Europe, heading into the 1976 Canada Cup. From wikipedia's entry on the 1976 Canada Cup (citing Joe Pelletier's book):

The Czechoslovakian team was predicted to face Canada in the final by most experts as they brought the same team that won the 1976 World Championship a few months prior. Their goaltender, Jiří Holeček, was considered the best in the world outside the NHL

We all know Holecek didn't play well against Canada in the Canada Cup, but the point is that as Tretiak was in the midst of winning his third consecutive "Soviet Player of the Year" award (which he won in 1974, 1975, 1976, 1982, and 1983), the general feeling was that he was not the best goalie in Europe.

An IIHF biography of Tretiak celebrating his 60th birthday indicates that there was a widely held view that Holecek and even Vladimir Dzurilla were better goalies, and that Tretiak wasn't universally considered the best goalie in Europe until his dominant performance in the 1981 Canada Cup:

The somewhat strange thing is that Tretiak was judged differently in Europe and in North America for many years of his career.

Due to his sensational performance in the 1972 Summit Series, Tretiak immediately became a super-hero in Canada and the perception of him as the superior goaltender from Europe – and thus by far the best European at that position – just grew with the 1975 New Year’s Eve game and the 1981 Canada Cup rout.

But back in Europe, during the ‘70s, the European hockey community generally considered the Czechoslovaks Vladimir Dzurilla and Jiri Holecek as stronger goaltenders than Tretiak. And quite often whenever Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union met in many of their epic World Championship games in the 1970s, the Czechoslovaks came up on top in their head-to-head games, although the Soviet team won the gold nine times out of ten.

But it was the 1981 Canada Cup final – and the sensational 8-1 score which would have been something totally different had the CCCP team had a human in net – that cemented Tretiak’s position as not only the best in Europe, but the best in the world.

Sadly, and due to the totalitarian regime of that era, Tretiak played for only three more years before he decided to quit.

http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hock...pics/news-singleview-olympics/recap/6711.html

Ranking Holecek

I had Holecek 10th (edit: among goalies) on my submitted list, one spot over Tretiak. Since then, I've re-examined that line of thinking. As dominant as Holecek was during his 8 year stretch (from the ages of 27-35), he did take quite some time to hit his stride and didn't do all that much of note outside those 8 years. I also (possibly unfairly) dinged Tretiak on my original list for blowing a couple of high profile tournaments, but looking at the record closely, nobody could really point to a tournament that he blew other than the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympics, and that was just one tournament. Holecek appears to have blown the 1972 Olympics and the 1976 Canada Cup in between his World Championship brilliance.

That said, I think there is very good reason to suspect that from 1971-1978, Holecek was better on average than Tretiak - that certainly seems to be the opinion of people who watched both of them extensively. I'm fine with ranking Tretiak over Holecek after adding in what Tretiak did from 1979-1983, but I really don't feel comfortable ranking Holecek that far behind Tretiak.

I think that wherever we rank these goalies, they should probably be fairly close to one another.

 

[VMBM]

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Jiří Holeček
Aleksandr Maltsev
Vladimír Martinec
Boris Mikhailov
Vladimir Petrov
Václav Nedomanský
Vladislav Tretiak
Valeri Vasiliev

Nice. [MOD]

Let's see if we get some discussion going about Petrov; I'd guess that he is not the choice of many people for the top placements in this round (not for me either), but I'm definitely considering him over Vasiliev at this point.

Some interesting comparisons to be expected here:

Tretiak vs Holeček: who is best non-NHL goaltender?
Martinec vs Nedomanský: who is the best Czech forward?
Maltsev vs Nedomanský: both played center for their club teams, both split time between C and RW with their national teams. Both highly regarded internationally.

Indeed. To me it's not at all certain that Martinec was the better player, even though it seems that in later years his stock has risen and Nedomansky's has fallen.

 

[VMBM]

Nedomansky and Mikhailov are the same age. Nedomansky was clearly better from 1964-1969, Mikhailov's career took off when he started playing with Petrov and Kharlamov. Then Nedomansky was a point per game player at age 34-36 on the deadwings. He's better than Mikhailov

Well, in 1977-1980 he was the best player of the three, though I wouldn't talk about 1980 too much (they all were past their prime by then). So one can't claim that it was Kharlamov and/or Petrov who made him, especially since Petrov was almost always considered the lesser player; of them, only Kharlamov had such a skill that he couldn't have been denied, no matter what.

I think it has already been established that Mikhailov was a late bloomer. Even Vladimir Vikulov (born 1946) got more award recognition in the the late 1960s and early 1970s... but no way was Vikulov a better player in the end.

Maybe if Mikhailov had suffered the same fate as Alexander Maltsev (playing on the third line on Team USSR for most of his career), we wouldn't be talking about him yet at this stage of the project. But who knows? And heck, so what?

 

[Theokritos]

Mod Reminder: Please focus on players that are eligible in vote 2. Comparisons with players that are not eligible are par of the course, but posts solely bringing up ineligible players will be deleted.

 

[Theokritos]

Indeed. To me it's not at all certain that Martinec was the better player, even though it seems that in later years his stock has risen and Nedomansky's has fallen.

I'm looking forward to the arguments. You're right about the later years, there are two polls from the Czech Republic that rank Martinec higher than Nedomanský:

In 2008, the Czech newspaper Sport published a Czech Team of the Century poll. This poll seems to have been associated with an exhibit at the Prague National Museum on the history of Czech hockey, so I think we can take it as seriously as anyone can take a single poll. The top 4? 1. Jaromir Jagr 2. Dominik Hasek 3. Vladimir Martinec 4. Jan Suchy: Hundred-year history of Czech ice hockey focus of new National Museum exhibition | Radio Prague

I don't know where Nedomanský exactly ranked in that poll since we only got the top 4.

Another poll conducted among 50 Czech hockey experts back in 1998 came up with the following top 10 Czech players of all time:

1. Dominik Hašek
2. Jaromír Jágr
3. Vladimir Zábrodský
4. Vladimír Martinec
5. Ivan Hlinka
6. Vlastimil Bubník
7. Jan Suchý
8. Jiří Holík
9. Josef Maleček
10. Václav Nedomanský

Without earlier & later players: 1. Martinec, 2. Hlinka, 3. Suchý, 4. Holík, 5. Nedomanský

 

[Batis]

At the moment I view Tretiak and Holeček as the frontrunners in this group of players. Even if a case can be made for that goaltenders were somewhat favoured in the Soviet player of the year voting Tretiaks voting record is still so outstanding that he in my opinion should rank ahead of this group of skaters. The only player in this group that I (at the moment) can see myself ranking ahead of Tretiak is Holeček. Holečeks award recognition internationally is probably as outstanding as Tretiaks domestic award recognition. Only Fetisov have won as many Directorate best player by position awards as Holeček for example.

Tretiak also has a brilliant Izvestia golden stick voting record as evident in this post.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=106254031&postcount=77
Its a shame that the award did not exist during the overlapping part of Tretiaks and Holečeks primes though. It would have been interesting to see if the Izvestia golden stick voting would have demonstrated what seems to have been the general perception in Europe at the time (that Holeček was the superior goalie) or not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vaclav Nedomansky posts from HOH Centers project

Tied for 2nd in scoring in the 1972 Olympics (behind Valeri Kharlamov of the stacked USSR)
World Championship Directorate Best Forward (1974)
World Championship All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

Nedomansky: CSSR league All Star RW (1969). CSSR All Star C (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974).
1969 was the first year the CSSR had All-Star teams, and Nedomansky was already 25 by then. He defected to North America after the 1974 season. So that's 5/6 years an All-Star with only Jaroslav Holik beating him for the center spot once. Clearly Nedomansky was the best center in Czechoslovakia before he defected.

Unfortunately, the link to the book I quoted in the following has been taken down

Vaclav Nedomansky

This is what I found during the preliminary stages of the project. There is a fascinating book called Breakaway: From Behind the Iron Curtain to the NHL--The Untold Story of Hockey's Great Escapes. The first chapter of the book is online and can be found HERE. Conveniently for us, the first chapter is about Nedomansky, since he was the first star player to defect from behind the Iron Curtain during the Golden Age of European hockey. It's very quick reading and well worth reading in full yourself, but I'll summarize the key points here and quote passages that focus specifically on Nedomansky's skills as a hockey player.

The book first gives a brief summary of the events that led to the Soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1968 and how the Czechoslovaks viewed the 1969 World Championships, moved from Prague to Stockholm as Soviet tanks were still in the streets, as "a replay of a lost war."

Playing in what was inarguably the single most important sporting event in their country’s history,the Czechoslovakian nationals came out flying. They carried an overwhelming physicality throughout the game, a style enabled by the recent rule change allowing full-contact body checking in all three sections of the ice. With ample opportunity to engage in rougher play, the ultramotivated Czechoslovakians were a difficult matchup for the fleet-footed Soviets.

Czechoslovakia beat the USSR twice, but were so spent they lost to Sweden in their final game and had to settle for bronze. The wins were so big that they sparked massive demonstrations against the Soviet occupiers that turned violent. Defenseman Jan Suchy and goaltender Vladimir Dzurilla were the heros of the tournament, but the tournament also marked the "coming out party" for Nedomansky, who was the third member of the Czechoslovakian team to be named an All-Star:

With nine goals in eight games, the six-foot two-inch,210-pound winger epitomized the spirit of the upstart Czechoslovakian team. Though not as individually skilled as any of the superstars on the Soviet team, the native of Hodonin was an immovable object in the offensive zone, imposing his will on even the most physical of defenses.

He had already established himself as a young star playing for HC Bratislava, but the 1969 World Championship had been something of a coming-out party for Nedomansky. His overall performance in the tournament established him as one of the top power forwards in the world, and the inability of other national teams to contain him quickly made “Big Ned†an idol in a country looking to rebuild its morale in the wake of the Prague Spring.

Domestically, Nedomansky was the star player on the only Slovak team in the Czech elite league. The book notes that while fans of the Czech clubs cared more about international tournaments, fans of HC Bratislava cared more about the domestic championship because they wanted to beat the Czechs, who they saw as treating them like second-class citizens.

In the next few World Championships:

Big Ned finished second in tournament scoring behind Russian Alexander Maltsev at the 1970 tournament, again being named a tournament All-Star. The 1971 tournament saw the Czechoslovakians improve on the podium, winning silver as the Soviets won their ninth consecutive World Championship gold. Nedomansky posted an impressive eight goals in a prelude to a performance at the 1972 tournament that would establish him as arguably the best hockey player not playing in North America

Czechoslovakia would then win the 1972 World Championships (held in their country for the first time since 1959), breaking the Soviet's string of 9 straight WC titles.

(Jaroslav) Holik may have been the hero in the big game, but it was Big Ned who firmly established himself as one of the world’s elite players with nine goals and six assists in 10 tournament games.He may have missed out on the 1972 tournament All-Star team, but Nedomansky was beginning to appear on several scouts’radars across the Iron Curtain.

“He was very good. He was an international star for sure,â€says Marshall Johnston, a winger for the Canadian national team who transitioned into coaching in the NHL in 1973. “A big guy,highly skilled. Didn’t have a lot of speed, but [a] very good shot,very smart.

In the early 70s, the emergence of the WHA as a rival to the NHL created a desperate need for new talent pools. The WHA, in particular the Winnipeg Jets, led the way in signing talent from Sweden and Finland. But Eastern Bloc players were off limits - used by their countries in "international propaganda tours" before having to return home to dreary conditions.

The atmosphere seemed ripe for a Czechoslovakian star to contemplate playing in the West. And by then there was no bigger star in the East than Vaclav Nedomansky. After leading Czechoslovakia to bronze at the 1973 World Championship, Nedomansky came back in 1974 with his best tournament performance yet. The Soviets had steamrolled their way to another gold medal, outscoring the competition by an astounding 64–18 margin, but Czechoslovakia made their mark with a convincing 7–2 win over their hated Soviet rival. The 7–2 win, since referred to by hockey historians as “the Perfect Game,†was the worst loss the Soviets had ever sustained in any official inter-national competition. As he did countless other times, Vaclav Nedomansky opened the scoring that day for Czechoslovakia

With a torrid scoring pace, Nedomansky led Czechoslovakiato a silver medal and was named the tournament’s top forward with a World Championship performance so dominating that WHA teams started frothing at the mouth at the thought of add-ing the skilled star to their roster.

Shortly after the 1974 World Championships, at the age of 30, Nedomansky defected to Canada to play for the Toronto Toros of the WHA. The book gives a detailed account of the defection, including the Toros competition from other WHA teams for "one of the best players in Europe."

In retaliation, the Communist authorities in Czechoslovakia branded Nedomansky a traitor and wiped all mention of Nedomansky from the history books. Another Czech player who would later defect in 1981 said, "He just disappeared. Everybody was afraid. If somebody defected, afterward you wouldn’t even mention their name. Because you were afraid that someone was listening."

Nedomansky's debut in the WHA in 1974-75 at the age of 30 was a resounding success. He scored 56 goals (good for third in the entire league) and won the WHA equivalent of the Lady Byng. But his team stunk. The Toros' owner was losing money, decided that the team could never compete with the Maple Leafs, and moved them to Birmingham, Alabama, with the intentions of creating a hockey hotbed in the South. Several Toros players refused to follow the team to Alabama, but Nedomansky reluctantly went along.

Nedomansky, who transitioned very well to the culture of Toronto, did not at all fit into the culture of the Southern US and floundered for two years before the Birmingham experiment went bust. He was then picked up by the Detroit Red Wings. Nedomansky was reluctant to play for another US-based team because he thought it would be easier to become a citizen of Canada than the US, but eventually he began commuting to Detroit from Windsor, Ontario.

Nedomansky had a resurgence in 1978-79, leading the Red Wings in both goals and points at the age of 34. He had one more good season in the NHL, finishing 2nd on the Wings in both goals and points the following season.

The Red Wings offered Nedomansky a lucrative contract, but his agent Alan Eagleson sat on it, and Detroit rescinded the offer under pressure from other owners. Nedomansky would become the first player to sue the then-untouchable Eagleson, and the lawsuits soured him on hockey in general.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm looking forward to the arguments. You're right about the later years, there are two polls from the Czech Republic that rank Martinec higher than Nedomanský:



I don't know where Nedomanský exactly ranked in that poll since we only got the top 4.

Another poll conducted among 50 Czech hockey experts back in 1998 came up with the following top 10 Czech players of all time:

1. Dominik Hašek
2. Jaromír Jágr
3. Vladimir Zábrodský
4. Vladimír Martinec
5. Ivan Hlinka
6. Vlastimil Bubník
7. Jan Suchý
8. Jiří Holík
9. Josef Maleček
10. Václav Nedomanský

Without earlier & later players: 1. Martinec, 2. Hlinka, 3. Suchý, 4. Holík, 5. Nedomanský

I find these polls pretty compelling pro-Martinec pieces. We already know he won more Golden Hockey sticks than any other player from CSSR's golden generation; now we have two independent rankings that would have him high too.

I don't really think these are very useful as anti-Nedomansky polls, however, since I know Nedomansky's association with Slovakia and his later defection to the West are both reasons why he wouldn't be remembered as well. Specifically, the communists wiped all mention of Nedomansky, including his statistics from the Czechoslovakian record books after he defected.

On the other hand, even when Nedomansky was still playing, his Golden Hockey Stick voting record was not as good as you would think, based strictly on his stats, and his lousy defensive play might have been a factor.

I have found an interview with Nedomansky, where is a quote about him playing as a center.

Trenér Bouzek kdysi v žertu vyprávěl, že kvůli vám vznikl v Československu systém s bránícím levým křídlem, protože vy jste se jako centr moc nevracel.

My rough translation: Coach Bouzek said jokingly, that you were the reason why the left wing lock was invented, because you didn't play defense much as a center.

article

Also in a book 100 best Czechs and Slovaks in the NHL he is mentioned as a strong center from Slovan Bratislava.

So I'd say that in Czechoslovakia he is considered primarily a center.

I have also read about how Nedomansky struggled at first to adjust to the defensively responsibilities of a center in the NHL, but that he did adjust and become a better two-way player in the NHL.

Also, how strange is it that Holecek (or to be fair, any other goalie) got so few votes on the longer poll theo posted?

 

[Theokritos]

Nedomanský vs Martinec

Season | Nedomanský (Mar 1944) | Martinec (Dec 1949) | WHC Honours
1962-1963|first season in senior league (18yo)
1963-1964|
1964-1965|plays in his first WHC
1965-1966|
1966-1967|
1967-1968| no ZH voting yet, no All-star team yet |first season in senior league (17-18yo)
1968-1969|ZH: 6 (3 among F), All-star|ZH: no votes|Nedomanský (AS)
1969-1970|ZH: 3 (2), All-star|plays in his first WHC; ZH: 17 (10 among F)|Nedomanský (AS)
1970-1971|ZH: 3 (1), All-star|ZH: 13 (8 among F)
1971-1972|ZH: 4 (2)|ZH: 7 (4)
1972-1973|ZH: 6 (4), All-star|ZH: 1 (1), All-star
1973-1974|ZH: 5 (4), All-star|ZH: 3 (2), All-star |Nedomanský (AS + Best F) , Martinec (AS)
1974-1975| Toronto Toros (WHA) |ZH: 1 (1), All-star|Martinec (AS)
1975-1976| Toronto Toros (WHA) |ZH: 1 (1), All-star|Martinec (AS + BF)
1976-1977| Birmingham Bulls (WHA) |ZH: 4 (3), All-star|Martinec (AS)
1977-1978| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |ZH: 7 (4), All-star team discontinued
1978-1979| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |ZH: 1 (1)
1979-1980| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |ZH: 5 (4)
1980-1981| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |ZH: 6 (5)
1981-1982| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) | ESV Kaufbeuren (West Germany)
1982-1983| New York Ranger, St. Louis Blues (NHL) | ESV Kaufbeuren (West Germany)
1983-1984|| ESV Kaufbeuren (West Germany)
1984-1985|| ESV Kaufbeuren (West Germany)

ZH = Zlatá Hokejka ("Golden Stick").

 

[Theokritos]

Nedomanský vs Maltsev

Season | Nedomanský (Mar 1944) | Maltsev (Apr 1949) | WHC Honours
1962-1963|first season in senior league (18yo)
1963-1964|
1964-1965|plays in his first WHC
1965-1966|
1966-1967|
1967-1968| no ZH voting yet, no All-star team yet |first season in senior league (18yo)
1968-1969|ZH: 6 (3 among F), All-star|plays in his first WHC; BP: 10 (8 among F)|Nedomanský (AS)
1969-1970|ZH: 3 (2), All-star|BP: 2 (1)|Nedomanský (AS) , Maltsev (AS + BF)
1970-1971|ZH: 3 (1), All-star|BP: 3 (3)|Maltsev (AS)
1971-1972|ZH: 4 (2)|BP: 1 (1)|Maltsev (AS + BF)
1972-1973|ZH: 6 (4), All-star|BP: 9 (6)
1973-1974|ZH: 5 (4), All-star|BP: 4 (2)|Nedomanský (AS + Best F)
1974-1975| Toronto Toros (WHA) |BP: 8 (5)|
1975-1976| Toronto Toros (WHA) |BP: 4 (3)|
1976-1977| Birmingham Bulls (WHA) |BP: 6 (4)
1977-1978| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |BP: 4 (2)|Maltsev (AS)
1978-1979| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) | BP: no voting
1979-1980| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |BP: 4 (4)
1980-1981| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |BP: 2 (1)|Maltsev (AS + BF)
1981-1982| Detroit Red Wings (NHL) |BP: 7 (5)
1982-1983| New York Ranger, St. Louis Blues (NHL) |BP: 7 (4)
1983-1984||BP: no votes

BP = Best Player of the Season.

 

[DN28]

Unfortunately I haven´t read Holecek´s biography but I still searched some information to help us evaluate his career properly.

We know what he did during his prime between 1971-78 but is there anything noteworthy before that or does he only have 7 outstanding seasons in his pocket?
Jiri Holecek got into training camp of Dukla Jihlava (army club) somewhere around 1963 I believe. It was annual camps for young talents (mostly) who joined the army after the school. The better ones started to play for Jihlava (as this was the case of Suchy, Holiks and many others). I´ve read that there were 5 goalies fighting for 3 spots. Coach of Jihlava and national team, Jaroslav Pitner, was a former goalie himself so he probably knew how to recognize good and bad goalie. Holecek was NOT picked, 3 goalies were thought to be better so Holecek (along with other secondary talents) was sent to Dukla Košice - the other army club which was in eastern Slovakia (Dukla was the "trademark" for all czechoslovak army sports clubs, not just in hockey).
This suggests that Holecek must have been late bloomer who developped his game later in his career. However, we know that Holecek first played on national team in WC 1966 already! He played also in WC 1967. Then he stopped to be recalled for international games until 1971.

His stats are following:

1966
Vladimír Dzurilla: 6 games / 304:02 min / 10 GA / 91 saves / 90,10 %
Jiří Holeček: 2 games / 115:58 min / 5 GA / 31 saves / 86,11 %

1967
Vladimír Nadrchal: 5 games / 213 min / 12 GA / 3,38 GAA
Jiří Holeček: 4 games / 207 min / 6 GA / 1,74 GAA

His 1st WC looks underwhelming but his 2nd looks better despite the fact that we don´t know save percentage from that tournament.
So why did it take so long for him to get another call for 4 years? I´ve read from at least two sources that he was put a lot of blame from the media for bad results of NT in WC 67 (his father allegedly got a heart attack and died because of it! I´ve read it several times) which is weird judging from his stats. It was the only WC during 60s which CSSR didn´t earn medal. Holecek did have one bad game against Swedes but that´s sure not a sufficient reason to be out from NT for so long.
(I´ve also read in Miloslav Jensik´s book about goalies that there was a rumor at the time that Dzurilla didn´t want Holecek in team as his back-up, saying that Holecek is too "ambitious". But I don´t believe this, by all acount Dzurilla was extremely popular among all of his teammates for his character, calmness, leadership and sense of humour.)

All in all Dzurilla was more than reliable goalie in late 60s and there was a very good goalie depth in CSSR in general. Holecek didn´t receive a single vote in golden stick voting in the 1st year in 1969 but he finished 12th in 1970 even though he didn´t play in WC that year. Dzurilla was also league´ all-star in both years.
I think this all suggests that Holecek was still very good, above average goalie in 60s but nothing extraordinary or helpful to his case in this round.
_____________________________

Here are the rest of his statistics during his prime (in some cases I included stats of Dzurilla for comparison):

WC 1971
Jiří Holeček: 8 games / 440:00 minutes / 12 goals allowed / 216 saves / 94,74 %
Best goalie award
All-star goalie

OG 1972
Vladimír Dzurilla: 5 games / 224 minutes / 7 goals allowed / 87 saves / 92,55 %
Jiří Holeček: 3 games / 136 minutes / 8 goals allowed / 45 saves / 84,91 %

WC 1972
Jiří Holeček: 6 games / 360:00 minutes / 10 goals allowed / 137 saves / 93,20 %
All-star goalie

WC 1973
Jiří Holeček: 8 games / 480:00 minutes / 17 goals allowed / 227 saves / 93,03 %
Best goalie award
All-star goalie

WC 1974
Jiří Holeček: 6 games / 340:00 minutes / 14 goals allowed / 138 saves / 90,79 %
Tretyak won best goalie award and Larsson was all-star goalie.
Holecek´s dip in SV resulted into zero awards from that WC.

WC 1975
Jiří Holeček: 9 games / 525:52 minutes / 14 goals allowed / 200 saves / 93,46 %
Best goalie award
Tretyak was all-star goalie

OG 1976
Jiří Holeček: 6 games / 293 minutes / 9 goals allowed / 127 saves / 93,38 %

WC 1976
Jiří Holeček: 8 games / 480:00 minutes / 13 goals allowed / 214 saves / 94,27 %
Best goalie award
All-star goalie

CC 1976
Vladimír Dzurilla: 5 games / 227:34 minutes / 9 goals allowed / 104 saves / 92,04 %
Jiří Holeček: 5 games / 203:09 minutes / 11 goals allowed / 68 saves / 86,08 %

WC 1977
Vladimír Dzurilla: 7 games / 400:00 minutes / 18 goals allowed / 153 saves / 89,47 %
Jiří Holeček: 4 games / 200:00 minutes / 14 goals allowed / 94 saves / 87,04 %
Goran Hogosta won best goalie award and was all-star goalie.
This was second Holecek´s slump in WC and again he did not receive any award.

WC 1978
Jiří Holeček: 9 games / 540:00 minutes / 19 goals allowed / 207 saves / 91,59 %
Best goalie award
All-star goalie

As amazing as his accolades AND his stats are, his meltdowns needs to be pointed too. Concretely OG 72, CC 76 and WC 77. It seems to me that Holecek was either excellent or very bad, not much of a something in between. You almost don´t see some average SV like 90.5 %. This is what separates Holecek from Tretyak (and Dzurilla). Tretyak was well known for longterm stability of his performance. I posted Tretyak SV from every tournament we have data last thread so I won´t post here (at least not in THIS post), but from that and from everything I know about him, I think for Tretyak it was unusual to hit that high SV as Holecek, but also Tretyak didn´t blow some tournaments like Holecek did (except of Miracle on ice olympics 1980).
____________________________

Holecek in league:
Again I don´t know much and of course I don´t have any interesting league stats but there are few points to be found about his domestic play.
He was league all-star in every year during his prime except for his down year - 1977. Between mid-60s to 1973 he played for Dukla Kosice - as I said earlier army club in eastern Slovakia where secondary talents were being sent.
From season 1973-74 to 1977-78 he played for Sparta Prague - very popular, 2nd oldest and historically one of the most succesful club. Sparta had some notable players in early 70s such as Josef Horesovsky, Jiri Kochta or Jan Havel but here are their placements before Holecek arrived:
1970-71 Sparta was 7th (from 10 teams); 1971-72 Sparta was again 7th (from 10 teams); 1972-73 Sparta was 8th (from 10 teams).

And then Sparta´s placements during Holecek´s tenure:
1973-74: Sparta was 2nd, only behind league´s dynasty team Dukla Jihlava. This was such a turnout that it´s hard not to explain it by Holecek´s arrival. Coincidentally this was the only year where Holecek actually won the golden stick voting. Also he had fairly mediocre WC that year, so his only MVP award must have been really influenced by his impressive domestic play - as his team placement would suggest.
1974-75: Sparta was 6th (from 12 teams)
1975-76: Sparta was 6th (from 12 teams)
1976-77: Sparta was 3rd (from 12 teams)
1977-78: Sparta was 3rd (from 12 teams). From this season I´ve read in Miloslav Jensik´ "Chronicle of Czech hockey" very high praise for Holecek. Sparta started very hot and was 1st or 2nd by half of the season. It was viewed as a huge surprise at the time because of lack of any other seriously good player (those players mentioned above either didn´t play there or were old and about to retire). According to Jensik´s citation Holecek "was the only star Sparta owned and by far their best player and reason to their success" (that´s not a precise citation though, I go by memory because I don´t have that book now).

And finally, Sparta´s placements after Holecek went to Germany:
1978-79: Sparta was 7th (from 12 teams)
1979-80: Sparta was 5th (from 12 teams)
1980-81: Sparta was 8th (from 12 teams)

Despite his relatively short tenure with Sparta, Holecek was also voted in Sparta All-star Team in 2004. It was voted by many journalists and former players and all-star player´s numbers were subsequently retired. (Those players were Holecek, Karel Gut, Frantisek Tikal, Vladimir Zabrodsky, Jan Havel and Jiri Hrdina by the way).

All this basically suggests that his domestic play during his prime was just as dominant as his play on international scene.
______________________________

As far his ranking, I definitely won´t have Holecek above Tretyak but I can understand those who would prefer him. I think Tretyak in 80s probably peaked just as high as Holecek and his prime lasted almost twice as long as Holecek, while Tretyak didn´t blow as many tournaments like Holecek (probably). Also Holecek seems to never properly adjust to North American north-south game, unlike Tretyak. That being said, I think Holecek´s 7 best seasons easily trump Tretyak´s 7 best seasons.

As for his reputation or lack of it (that 98´poll), few arguments could explain it. Holecek was a weirdo who didn´t talk much, was flegmatic, not very popular but also a little bit cocky. Suchy in his bio mentioned that at Holecek´s first WCs "no one took him seriously".
But another reason came to my mind - Holecek wasn´t as much valuable to his team (or rather "viewed as much valuable to his team") due to incredible goalie depth Czechoslovaks had during his time. In 60s there were Dzurilla, Nadrchal (goalie of RH Brno dynasty in 60s, also very competent internationally) and few others. In 70s there were again Dzurilla and Crha (who became a starter for Toronto in 79-80) and again few others (Marcel Sakač who stole Dzurilla´s starting position in early 70s, young Kralik, etc.).
Indeed you would find some people in Czech rep. and Slovakia who would say that Dzurilla was actually better goalie (Jaroslav Holík for example), probably due to longevity and consistency.

And I personally think THIS could be the reason for Tretyak´s excellent MVP voting. Perhaps Soviet "MVP" really was voting for "the most valuable player to his team" like Hart trophy, and not necesarilly for the best player. Soviet voters maybe felt that without Tretyak, due to lack of solid goalie alternative, USSR wouldn´t be winning those championships at all? CSSR managed to outshot and outplayed Soviets many times. For example the 1st game in 1974, CSSR:USSR 7:2 when Czechoslovaks were winning 5:0 after 2nd period.
Tretyak won in 1974, 1975 when Soviets won the title. But would they win if Tretyak, for example, got hurt and didn´t play?
In 1976 they at least won the Olympics.

The problem here is that Holecek probably should be ranked near Tretyak but I find it wrong if Holecek would be voted as the best non-NHL Czech player. I don´t feel comfortable to have Holecek above Martinec, Nedomansky or Pospisil.

 

[Theokritos]

This suggests that Holecek must have been late bloomer who developped his game later in his career. However, we know that Holecek first played on national team in WC 1966 already! He played also in WC 1967. Then he stopped to be recalled for international games until 1971.

For reference: Dzurilla aside, the other goaltenders who played at the World Championships from 1968-1970 instead of Holeček were Vladimír Nadrchal (1968) and Miroslav Lacký (1969 and 1970). Others who got call-ups to the national team for various exhibition games and tournaments during that time: Josef Mikoláš (1967-1968), Miroslav Termer (1968-69) and Josef Hovora (1969-70). So presumably Holeček was hardly ever more than #4 in the depth chart at any point during those years.

I´ve read from at least two sources that he was put a lot of blame from the media for bad results of NT in WC 67 (his father allegedly got a heart attack and died because of it! I´ve read it several times) which is weird judging from his stats. It was the only WC during 60s which CSSR didn´t earn medal. Holecek did have one bad game against Swedes but that´s sure not a sufficient reason to be out from NT for so long.

I guess it depends on how bad it was. Given the depth at the goaltender position in Czechoslovakia (so that other quality goaltenders were available for the national team), why not?

And then Sparta´s placements during Holecek´s tenure:
1973-74: Sparta was 2nd, only behind league´s dynasty team Dukla Jihlava. This was such a turnout that it´s hard not to explain it by Holecek´s arrival. Coincidentally this was the only year where Holecek actually won the golden stick voting. Also he had fairly mediocre WC that year, so his only MVP award must have been really influenced by his impressive domestic play - as his team placement would suggest.

Very solid reasoning, got to agree with this. He won the poll with 957 votes, the other Sparta players who got votes were Kochta (383, on par with what he got the year before), Horešovský (77), Brdička (19) and ŠÃ­ma (14). It's obvious that Sparta's title was first and foremost perceived as Holeček's achievement.

1977-78: Sparta was 3rd (from 12 teams). From this season I´ve read in Miloslav Jensik´ "Chronicle of Czech hockey" very high praise for Holecek. Sparta started very hot and was 1st or 2nd by half of the season. It was viewed as a huge surprise at the time because of lack of any other seriously good player (those players mentioned above either didn´t play there or were old and about to retire). According to Jensik´s citation Holecek "was the only star Sparta owned and by far their best player and reason to their success" (that´s not a precise citation though, I go by memory ´cause I don´t have that book now).

Good info. The lack of other good players is also obvious in the Golden Stick result. The next best players after Holeček (966 points) were Richter (48), Zajíček (16), Kochta (11) and Mec (10). Sparta's competitiveness was certainly due to Holeček, again.

But another reason came to my mind - Holecek wasn´t as much valuable to his team (or rather "viewed as much valuable to his team") due to incredible goalie depth Czechoslovaks had during his time. In 60s there were Dzurilla, Nadrchal (goalie of RH Brno dynasty in 60s, also very competent internationally) and few others. In 70s there were again Dzurilla and Crha (who became a starter for Toronto in 79-80) and again few others (Marcel Sakač who stole Dzurilla´s starting position in early 70s, young Kralik, etc.).

That's a very good point and it could explain the difference between Tretiak's and Holeček's reputation in their respective home country. Tretiak stood head and shoulders above the other Soviet goaltenders overall, while Holeček was somewhat replaceable, despite his accolades.

And I personally think THIS could be the reason for Tretyak´s excellent MVP voting. Perhaps Soviet "MVP" really was voting for "the most valuable player to his team" like Hart trophy, and not necesarilly for the best player.

The so-called Soviet "MVP" award was actually called Лучший хоккеист сезона ("Best hockey player of the season"), so I don't think this was the case. But regardless, if Tretiak was a difference maker in goal for the Soviet Union then they could still have perceived him as better than the Czechoslovaks perceived their guy who had more domestic competition at his position.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

1973-74: Sparta was 2nd, only behind league´s dynasty team Dukla Jihlava. This was such a turnout that it´s hard not to explain it by Holecek´s arrival. Coincidentally this was the only year where Holecek actually won the golden stick voting. Also he had fairly mediocre WC that year, so his only MVP award must have been really influenced by his impressive domestic play - as his team placement would suggest.

Very solid reasoning, got to agree with this. He won the poll with 957 votes, the other Sparta players who got votes were Kochta (383, on par with what he got the year before), HoreÅ¡ovský (77), Brdička (19) and Šíma (14). It's obvious that Sparta's title was first and foremost perceived as Holeček's.

According to Holecek himself he was not entirely satisfied with the 1973/74 season (despite the Golden Stick) due to his mediocre play for the national team.
In the book Sparta Praha - Srdce Nase from 2007, he said that an abdominal tear and three facial injuries affected his performance late in the season (= World Championships).

By the way, I always thought he performed rather poorly against North American teams. It would be interesting to compare his performances against Sweden/Soviet Union vs USA/Canada.

 

[VMBM]

As amazing as his accolades AND his stats are, his meltdowns needs to be pointed too. Concretely OG 72, CC 76 and WC 77. It seems to me that Holecek was either excellent or very bad, not much of a something in between. You almost don´t see some average SV like 90.5 %. This is what separates Holecek from Tretyak (and Dzurilla). Tretyak was well known for longterm stability of his performance. I posted Tretyak SV from every tournament we have data last thread so I won´t post here (at least not in THIS post), but from that and from everything I know about him, I think for Tretyak it was unusual to hit that high SV as Holecek, but also Tretyak didn´t blow some tournaments like Holecek did (except of Miracle on ice olympics 1980).

First of all, thanks for this post. This is what's needed in the discussion. I'll try to come up with a lengthy Nedomansky vs. Martinec post later this week. I'll also try to analyse my 'problems' with Mikhailov, although it might be a bit silly, since right now I'm definitely concidering him #2 in this round/vote. However, I do feel that Mikhailov gets a bit overrated at times on Hfboards; he had his deficiences.

Holecek's problems with North American teams definitely deserve a mention. He had a bad game vs. USA in the 1972 WHC too (CSSR lost 5-1 in the first round), but in that tournament he redeemed himself; Holecek recorded a shutout in the 2nd game vs. USA and was excellent (by all accounts) in the games vs. USSR.

However, Holecek did have enough of bad games against USA and Canada to raise a question mark about his goaltending. Maybe Ken Dryden vs. USSR is something of a parallel, although Dryden's 'poorness' vs. the Soviets might get overblown at times. I think it was Jan Starsi who said during the 1976 CC that Holecek "has lost his confidence vs. North American teams", so maybe it was more mental than actual style-related problems?
However, in the exhibition game vs. Canada after the 1972 Summit Series, Holecek definitely had some problems specifically with Team Canada's shooting, and was beaten cleanly by two shots early in the game, and with better positioning he might have been able to catch them. However, in that game he seemed adjust after that, and started to play further from the net (to cut down the angles etc). I wish Canada had played a long series vs. CSSR too some time in the 1970s, so maybe we would be a little wiser.

Tretyak did have some bad tournaments/series/games too; he was pretty awful in the 1979 Challenge Cup - especially in game 2 where he almost cost the Soviets the series; the Soviets dominated the game and outshot the NHL All-Stars 31-16, and yet Tretyak allowed 4 goals in the game (USSR won 5-4). Even the 'Tretyak fans', commentators Danny Gallivan and Dick Irvin, Jr., were turning against him. There was a reason why Tikhonov put an inexperienced goalie like Myshkin in goal for the deciding game of the Series. USSR won the series in spite of Tretyak, not because of him.
He was 'hot and cold' also in the 1979-80 Super Series; the game vs. the Sabres is the worst one I've ever seen him play. There were 3-4 goals in that game that were scored from everywhere else but from prime scoring areas.

And I personally think THIS could be the reason for Tretyak´s excellent MVP voting. Perhaps Soviet "MVP" really was voting for "the most valuable player to his team" like Hart trophy, and not necesarilly for the best player. Soviet voters maybe felt that without Tretyak, due to lack of solid goalie alternative, USSR wouldn´t be winning those championships at all? CSSR managed to outshot and outplayed Soviets many times. For example the 1st game in 1974, CSSR:USSR 7:2 when Czechoslovaks were winning 5:0 after 2nd period.
Tretyak won in 1974, 1975 when Soviets won the title. But would they win if Tretyak, for example, got hurt and didn´t play?
In 1976 they at least won the Olympics.

I don't quite understand that; it was Tretyak who was in goal in that 7-2 game. Are you saying that without him USSR would have lost 15-2 or something? It's possible, but it was a huge loss in any case even when Tretyak played. Tretyak was also in goal when the Soviets lost to CSSR 8-3 at the 1977 Izvestia tournament --> http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_game_info.asp?gm_id=gm498. I don't know about the SOG in that game, but my guess is that Tretyak too played awfully.

Tretyak was also in goal when the Soviets lost the world championship in 1972, 1976 and 1977; it wasn't probably his fault, but he couldn't 'save the team' either. To me the Soviets all in all looked pretty strong in 1973, 1974 (except for that one awful game), 1975, 1978 and 1979 (not to mention in 1981-84), and I can't really point out with any certainty a single WHC or Olympics where it was specifically Tretyak who won them the tournament. In fact, it could be said that the Soviets never lost when Konovalenko was the #1 goalie - tongue-in-cheek of course.

All in all, I agree that Tretyak was more consistently good against all kinds of opposition. But he was also in a lot better position (i.e. goalie for the Soviet ntl team and CSKA) to prove himself against the North American teams and make himself a legend in NA too.

The problem here is that Holecek probably should be ranked near Tretyak but I find it wrong if Holecek would be voted as the best non-NHL Czech player. I don´t feel comfortable to have Holecek above Martinec, Nedomansky or Pospisil.

Agree with you there, as far as Nedomansky and Martinec go; I will rank Holecek above Pospisil, though... and I would say that I'm higher on Pospisil than most.

---

By the way, didn't Holecek start out as a forward? That would maybe explain a little bit why he flourished so late. Doesn't really matter concerning his ranking, though.

 

[Theokritos]

By the way, didn't Holecek start out as a forward? That would maybe explain a little bit why he flourished so late. Doesn't really matter concerning his ranking, though.

From a short bio by Patrick Houda:

Then in 1956 he played for Tatra Smichov as a forward. As a 13-year old he became a goalie just by co-incidence when he failed to make the Bohemians Prague team in 1957-58 as a forward.

From the same bio, a quote by Holeček on playing against the Soviets:

"I usually liked to skate out a bit to face the shooters but against them I stood on the goal line. Trying to skate out of your crease to cut the angles against the Russians would have been suicide" Holecek said.

I guess the North Americans wouldn't agree Holeček came out of the goal enough to cut the angles when playing against them though.

 

[Theokritos]

An interesting statistic from the WHCs and Olympics in the 1971-1978 period (when prime Holeček was with the Czechoslovak national team): The Soviet Union finished ahead of Czechoslovakia in 7 out of 10 tournaments, but Czechoslovakia allowed fewer goals in those 10 tournaments (=90 games for each team) than the Soviets did. Soviet Union: 178 goals against (1.98 per game). Czechoslovakia: 160 goals against (1.78 per game). Unfortunately we don't know the number of shots on goal against each team.

1971 WHC:
USSR 24
CSSR 20

1972 Olympics:
USSR 13
CSSR 13

1972 WHC:
USSR 17
CSSR 16

1973 WHC:
USSR 18
CSSR 20

1974 WHC:
USSR 18
CSSR 20

1975 WHC:
USSR 23
CSSR 19

1976 Olympics:
USSR 11
CSSR 10

1976 WHC:
USSR 15
CSSR 7

1977 WHC:
USSR 16
CSSR 20

1978 WHC:
USSR 23
CSSR 15

Another issue and one that can hardly be measured is quality of the shots. Is it possible that Holeček tended to face easier shots than Tretiak which helped his % and made him look better?

Also, what I noticed for the Czechs against the Soviets was what looked to me - like an early (I assume, early) left wing lock system by the Czechs. Long story short, it's fundamental principles of dividing the ice into left/center/right lanes (something you'll see discussed from the youth levels on up) and having the left wing drop back into the defensive zone - essentially creating a 3-man defense system. This should help greatly reduce shot quality. I'm not sure how long the Czechs did this, when or against whom. But I noticed it quite a bit in the '76 Olympics. Adding another defenseman would sure help a goalie out.

 

[Sanf]

According to Holecek himself he was not entirely satisfied with the 1973/74 season (despite the Golden Stick) due to his mediocre play for the national team.
In the book Sparta Praha - Srdce Nase from 2007, he said that an abdominal tear and three facial injuries affected his performance late in the season (= World Championships).

By the way, I always thought he performed rather poorly against North American teams. It would be interesting to compare his performances against Sweden/Soviet Union vs USA/Canada.

I remember that in 1974 CSSR had strong record against Soviets in Izvestia and exhibition games prior to WHC. This is from memory but I think they won 4, one was tie and one loss (Crha played some of those games). So in a way you could say that CSSR would have been favourite going to that tournament.

CSSR´s tournament was certainly a disapointment. They basically lost Finland both of their games. Holecek didn´t shine on that tournament so the Golden stick voting result is bit surprising.

One of the things that might have made Holeceks run in his prime years easier is that Dzurilla retired from national team in 1972. He was asked back after Crha injured himself in 1976 (olympics). Though its hard to say how good Dzuriila actually was during those years.

It did seem that Crha and Sakac couldn´t challenge Holecek when he had off game. When Dzurilla was around he usually did use that chance.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A

Another issue and one that can hardly be measured is quality of the shots. Is it possible that Holeček tended to face easier shots than Tretiak which helped his % and made him look better?

I think it's fairly well established that the 70s CSSR Team played the left wing lock. Here's one source:

It is said that the left wing lock was invented in Czechoslovakia to counter the great Soviet teams of the 1970s.

Apparently, the best Soviets were left-handed shooters, so they usually began their attacks from their left side (the opponent's right side). To shut them down, both Czech defensemen would move to their right, focusing on that half of the ice. The Czech left winger would come back to cover the spot abandoned by the left defenseman. Between the three of them, they would "lock" the entire zone.

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/learnthegame/f/left_wing_lock.htm

Then there is the translated quote I posted above "joking" that the LWL was created to cover for Nedomansky's lack of backchecking at center.

This obituary for Jaroslav Pitner (coach of the CSSR national team from 1966 to 1973) states, "Pitner’s greatest achievement was the development of a defensive system that allowed Czechoslovakia to record victories over the rival Soviet Union, which was widely considered unbeatable at the time."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/sports/hockey/22pitner.html

Does this mean Holecek faced easier shots than Tretiak? I don't know. Tretiak didn't have to face the stacked Soviet offense. And I haven't seen multiple critics complaining that Holecek had it easy, like you would find with Tretiak. Of course, Tretiak is a bigger name at least in North America, and bigger names usually have more critics