Round 2, Vote 12 (HOH Top Centers)

[seventieslord]

An era argument in favor of Sundin? Really?

Why is that so hard to see? One peaked in the late 70s when the WHA and lack of Europeans had watered down the NHL to levels not seen in 30 years, the other peaked when all the best players in the world were in one league, without exception.

Just curious, what is the era argument against Sundin with respect to Sittler?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why is that so hard to see? One peaked in the late 70s when the WHA and lack of Europeans had watered down the NHL to levels not seen in 30 years, the other peaked when all the best players in the world were in one league, without exception.

Just curious, what is the era argument against Sundin with respect to Sittler?

If you think Sundin deserves to be ranked this round, make the case. Comparing him to Sittler if you don't think either should make it is just a waste of your (and our) time

 

[seventieslord]

If you think Sundin deserves to be ranked this round, make the case. Comparing him to Sittler if you don't think either should make it is just a waste of your (and our) time

Things we say this round are remembered next round too, you know.

And I haven't 100% ruled out anyone except Primeau.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Marty Barry Defined

Barry was top 10 in NHL scoring 6 times, more than anyone this round but Ratelle, and unlike Ratelle, Barry led his team in scoring all 6 of those times (once tied).

True by a combined total of 12 points, over those same seasons. Marty Barry provided a very flat line performance in an era where the dominant centers - Morenz, Stewart, Boucher were aging and before the arrrival of Young stars like Apps and Schmidt.. Three seasons with Boston Barry and an aging Nels Stewart were separated in team scoring by three points.

Traded to Detroit his game integrated quickly the first season, then he became a much better playmaker. Yet at no time could he be viewed as the best or most valuable player on his team.

So you have three defining seasons - showing he was the equal of an aging Nels Stewart. Integrating Detroit. Becoming an adequate playmaker.

Goal scoring center vs a playmaking center like Joe Primeau who led the NHL three times in assists. Basic choice, yet one best delayed until later rounds.

 

[MadArcand]

Why is that so hard to see? One peaked in the late 70s when the WHA and lack of Europeans had watered down the NHL to levels not seen in 30 years, the other peaked when all the best players in the world were in one league, without exception.

Just curious, what is the era argument against Sundin with respect to Sittler?

The absolute dearth of offensive talent in the hockey wasteland of early 2000s?

 

[MXD]

True by a combined total of 12 points, over those same seasons. Marty Barry provided a very flat line performance in an era where the dominant centers - Morenz, Stewart, Boucher were aging and before the arrrival of Young stars like Apps and Schmidt.. Three seasons with Boston Barry and an aging Nels Stewart were separated in team scoring by three points.

Traded to Detroit his game integrated quickly the first season, then he became a much better playmaker. Yet at no time could he be viewed as the best or most valuable player on his team.

So you have three defining seasons - showing he was the equal of an aging Nels Stewart. Integrating Detroit. Becoming an adequate playmaker.

Goal scoring center vs a playmaking center like Joe Primeau who led the NHL three times in assists. Basic choice, yet one best delayed until later rounds.

Im kind of surprised by this, to be honest. Herbie Lewis, Larry Aurie, Busher Jackson, Charlie Conacher. We have a decent gap here. Not to mention Primeau never did anything without those guys.

Side note - are we so sure Barry only played C in Boston ? Art Chapman doesn't strike me as a player who would play any other position than C. Or was it Weiland that was moved at wing.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Thor, Oden, and Mats. There you have some of the norse gods.

 

[overpass]

Marty Barry is one of the more interesting centers from the 1930s.

Initially with the Bruins he was a scoring center but after going to Detroit and a successful first season his game changed to that of a playmaking center. This happened before the 1937 liberalization of rebound assists:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/barryma01.html

Still during his career his regular season goals surpassed assists. Also with the Red Wings he assumed more of a leadership role on offense during the regular season and in the playoffs.

Still we are looking at a center whose career is defined by perhaps three seasons.

Boston and Detroit were both teams that relied heavily on the power play in the 1930s. Detroit played Barry, Aurie, Lewis, Goodfellow, and Sorrell as their regular PP unit. I don't know Boston's lineup but Eddie Shore was the key to their PP.

Barry may have been more of a goal scorer in Boston because Shore carried the puck a lot and had a large playmaking role.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Yes, Barry scored at about the same rate as Stewart during those three seasons in Boston, but that's hardly a strike against Barry given that Ol' Poison was ranked 28th on the list. Stewart may have been on the wrong side of 30, but he was still very productive (top ten scorer during those three overlapping years in Boston, and twice more after).

I realize that this is something of a junk statistic, but Barry led the NHL in scoring over a seven year span (1933 to 1939) with 270 points. Next closest players were Stewart and Jackson (both with 249 pts). With the exception of Hawerchuk (who was first in scoring aside from Gretzky from 1982 to 1991) has any other centre eligible for voting led the NHL in scoring over such a long time frame?

Barry may have led his team in scoring by a small margin, but he did it six times. Primeau never led his team in scoring, even once.

====

In summary, a summary for Barry's candidacy would be:

Positives
- excellent offense (best seven year VsX score of any eligible player; led NHL in scoring over a seven year period; was 3rd in PPG (minumum 200 games - behind Charlie Conacher and Sweeney Schriner) over that period)
- appeared to be teams' offensive catalyst, leading them in scoring each year he was a top ten scorer (albeit usually by small margin)
- strong playoff performer (increased scoring from 0.76 ppg to 0.77 ppg in an era where playoff scoring dropped precipitously); won two Stanley Cups; led playoffs in scoring twice (one Cup year, one non-Cup year); four top-six playoff scoring finishes in total; over span of playoff career (1930-39), was first in playoff scoring and first in PPG (minimum 30 games)
- won a Lady Byng trophy in 1937 and was runner up in 1939; the Byng doesn't get much respect nowadays but was seen as an honourable and important trophy during the first three decades it was awarded)
- some minor positives for Barry - he's healthy (missed just two games from 1930 to 1939), fairly disciplined (averaged 0.45 PIM per game), and seemed to have some versatility (received minor vote consideration at left-wing in 1932 and 1933)

Neutral
- very little evidence about defensive abilities, positive or negative
- same comment about faceoff prowess
- no international experience (not uncommon for players of his era)

Negative
- award finishes are disappointing relative to level of offense (only had one significant finish for Hart trophy - 5th place in 1937); only one year as an all-star (1st team in 1937); this is the biggest strike against him
- fairly short career (though not too short by the standards of his era - he retired 22nd in games played)

Joe Primeau has no case over Barry (weaker offense; shorter career; not as good in the playoffs; likely less of a catalyst on his team; similar awards portfolio)

 

[Canadiens1958]

1932-33 Salary Cap

Im kind of surprised by this, to be honest. Herbie Lewis, Larry Aurie, Busher Jackson, Charlie Conacher. We have a decent gap here. Not to mention Primeau never did anything without those guys.

Side note - are we so sure Barry only played C in Boston ? Art Chapman doesn't strike me as a player who would play any other position than C. Or was it Weiland that was moved at wing.

Cooney Weiland was traded to Ottawa in the summer of 1932 as part of the NHL teams aligning their rosters to comply with the salary cap and roster reductions introduced for the 1932-33 NHL season. Part of the process which allowed the Bruins to acquire Nels Stewart from the Maroons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/weilaco01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stewane01.html

Both Barry and Stewart were big centers for their era. Barry was Stewart lite. Not a strong skater.

 

[MXD]

- some minor positives for Barry - he's healthy (missed just two games from 1930 to 1939), fairly disciplined (averaged 0.45 PIM per game), and seemed to have some versatility (received minor vote consideration at left-wing in 1932 and 1933)

Thanks HO for answering my question below. I thought it was weird that 3 of the top 4 scorers of the Bruins were centers...

Side note - are we so sure Barry only played C in Boston ? Art Chapman doesn't strike me as a player who would play any other position than C. Or was it Weiland that was moved at wing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes

Boston and Detroit were both teams that relied heavily on the power play in the 1930s. Detroit played Barry, Aurie, Lewis, Goodfellow, and Sorrell as their regular PP unit. I don't know Boston's lineup but Eddie Shore was the key to their PP.

Barry may have been more of a goal scorer in Boston because Shore carried the puck a lot and had a large playmaking role.

True enough. Boston at times used Eddie Shore up front on the PP.

With Stewart and Barry who was almost 6' and approaching 200lbs, you had a lite version of Orr/Esposito on the same small rink.

 

[seventieslord]

The absolute dearth of offensive talent in the hockey wasteland of early 2000s?

Except Sundin was excellent from 1993 to 2008.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Marty Barry by Zotique Lesperence

Interesting post career write-up of Marty Barry by Zotique Lesperence, one of Quebec's leading French sportswriters. ZL watched Marty Barry play hockey from Barry's schooldays on outdoor rinks in Montreal, thru the NHL and beyond.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qqIuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RjIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3301,383996

ZL credits Marty Barry as being a scientific, intelligent player, slow skater, shifty, with an accurate shot. No mention of defensive skills.

Re Joe Primeau. Yes he played with Charlie Conacher and Busher Jackson who had their best years playing with Primeau. Barry's wingers, especially in Detroit managed very well without him.

Not comparing the two just making the point that it is too early for both of them.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sundin was good defensively. He was a big body and could hold his own in his own zone. And he was strong on faceoffs. Much like Lindros. No, he wasn't as good defensively as Modano was at his best or as agile on his skates, and sometimes he could look clumpsy and take some stupid penalties that would look a bit unnecessary, but I don't think Sundin's defensive game was ever an issue in Toronto or anywhere else.

Modano in Minnesota and early Dallas in the early 90s also wasn't a wizard defensively, when he scored his consecutive seasons with 93 points and a 50 goal season [ironically under coach Bob Gainey]. I think he took that step first when Hitchcock & DPE entered the scene and when he played on a real good defensive team with three time Selke winner Jere Lehtinen on his wing. You know who played on Sundin's wing? Notorious puck hog & floater Sergei Berezin. And yeah, Jonas Höglund.
But I don't think you have to worry about Sundin going at 45th, or even top 50. I can't see him go this round and what's to say he would even go next round? He does seem to have his fair share of detractors.

Also, as Don Cherry said, he was stuck with those 2 stiffs Ponikrvoski & Antropovoff.

 

[MXD]

Also, as Don Cherry said, he was stuck with those 2 stiffs Ponikrvoski & Antropovoff.

I also heard he played with Christian's dad and that ruskie scrub, Mogilny.

Besides, I mostly thought Berezin played quite a bit with Yanic Perreault, hence forever giving a meaning to the term "floating boat anchor".

 

[Hardyvan123]

You just said it yourself that Sundin was good for 74-point pace year-in, year-out. That's above-average first-liner. Incredibly consistent, but still only above-average. And he has no defensive value to bring that up.

Sundin is most definitely not a top-50 center. He may have a case for 60th, but we're voting for 45th spot now! He shouldn't be anywhere near that.

Hang on so you don't like Malkin insane peak and a guy like Sundin puts up 15 straight 76 plus adjusted point seasons and you don't like him either?

he has those best on best Olympics, when he had some team mates to play with, and 4 90 plus adjusted seasons.

Looking at his raw stats to say Savard would be unfair but we aren't looking at raw stats of the early guys either, nor should we as context matters.

 

[ted2019]

At what point in my rambling post did I come across as a Leafs fan?

I didn't say that You did. It's a general statement. There are a wide range of styles and eras this round. Need to do some studying this round.

 

[Hardyvan123]

An era argument in favor of Sundin? Really?

Well look at the competition for Sundin at center and then all of the non Canadian guys sittler had to contend with...opps right the Iron curtain was still up and the NHL was sharing Canadian talent with the WHA for most of Sittler's peak.

 

[tony d]

I've always liked Sundin, guy was a complete player IMO. Suffered from playing in Toronto and with poor linemates for most of his career though. Will be interesting to see where he goes (If he gets voted in) on the final list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Can you advise which 7 seasons were used for Modano?

Also, I would like to see the chronological breakdown of players inducted up to this point when you have time.

Thanks!

I don't have any spreadsheets that can easily do this - I was just copying from the tables already posted by others. I think either Hockey Outsider, Sturminator, or Rob Scuderi has the source data.

I'll comment on HO's Marty Barry post tomorrow.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Basically a repost of what TDMM posted last thread about the Soviet centers. I used SIHR for the domestic and international stats so they might be different from what were posted before.

Maltsev

• 4x Top 5 Domestic scoring finishes: 1 (71), 2 (74), 3 (76), 3 (77)
• 7x 1st Team All-Star Center (1970, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1978, 1980, 1981)
• 1x 2nd Team All-Star Right Wing (1973)

Maltsev was 9th in scoring (goals only however) in 1970, 7th in scoring in 1972, 6th in scoring in 1973, 20th in scoring in 1978, 17th in scoring in 1980, and 11th in 1981

• POTY:1st (1972), 2nd (1970), 2nd (1981), 3rd (1971), 4th
• 5x Top International scoring finishes: 1 (70), 1 (72), 1 (76), 3 (71), 3 (78), 3 (81)
• (1974), 4th (1976), 4th (1978), 4th (1980)
• 1x All-Star at the 1976 Canada Cup (only Soviet All-Star)
• 3x World Championships Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
• 5x World Championships All-Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Maltsev was 7th in scoring at the 1977 Canada Cup

Petrov

• 8x Top 5 Domestic scoring finishes: 1 (73), 1 (75), 1 (78), 1 (79), 1* (70), 2 (77), 3 (72), 5 (76)
  *goals only
• 4x 1st Team All-Star Center (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)
• 2x 2nd Team All-Star Center (1969, 1971)

Petrov was 6th in scoring (goals only again) in 1969, and 9th in scoring in 1971

• POTY: 2nd (1973), 2nd (1977), 4th (1975), 5th (1981) - no detailed results for 1979
• 6x Top 5 International scoring finishes: 1 (73), 1 (75), 1 (77), 1 (79), 4 (71), 5* (72)
• 4th in scoring at the 1974 Summit Series
• 4x WC All-Star Team (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Larionov

• 4x Top 5 Domestic: 2 (86), 2 (88), 3 (87), 5 (85)
• 4x 1st All-Star Center (1983, 1986, 1987, 1988)

Larionov was 16th in scoring in 1983 when he was a 1st All-Star

• POTY: 1st (1988), 4th (1986), 4th (1987)
• 4x Top 5 International scoring finishes: 2 (88), 3 (87), 4 (83), 5 (82)
• 2x WC All-Star Team (1983, 1986)

Larionov was 19th in scoring at the 1986 World Championship when named to the All-Star team

Petrov was in the top 5 of scoring every time he was a Soviet league 1st all-star or WC all-star. He was a great scorer, but he's almost the Soviet equivalent of Marty Barry where you'd expect a better award record than he had.

Larionov made a Soviet league 1st all-star team and WC All-Star team with 15-20 scoring finishes. Observers definitely seemed to appreciate what he did in addition to scoring.

Maltsev is just there for comparison's sake. He was only a top 5 scorer four times, but he had 4 four more all-star seasons finishing 6th-11th. He also carried a Dynamo team unlike Petrov and Larionov.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Can you advise which 7 seasons were used for Modano?

Also, I would like to see the chronological breakdown of players inducted up to this point when you have time.

Thanks!

Missed this, in order the seasons used were: 2001, 2000, 2002, 2003, 1994, 1997, 1999

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Missed this, in order the seasons used were: 2001, 2000, 2002, 2003, 1994, 1997, 1999

So Modano's best 4 offensive seasons (using this metric) and 6 of his best 7 offensive seasons were when he was a strong two-way player.

 

[VMBM]

I'm not, really. I'm suggesting that Petrov (in particular) was relatively unchallenged defensively (certainly compared to Larionov and his teammates of the day), making it "easier" to rack up points offensively. Considering we sent rosters to WCs in Larionov's day that had lineups featuring guys like Lemieux, Yzerman, Francis, and Muller down the middle, I don't see how this WOULDN'T be the logical starting point.

I would just point out that those Canadian WC teams rarely did well in the WCs; i.e. they were NHL players, alright, and there were even superstars, but as a team, they usually weren't really a true match for the Soviets. '80s Czechoslovakia, by all accounts weaker than they were in the 1970s, also usually finished ahead of them, and sometimes Sweden did too. And Petrov - in addition to Summit Series/Super Series - did also face Canada at the WCs between 1977 and 81 (i.e. centers like Esposito, Dionne, Unger, Maruk). But I seriously doubt that a couple of games a year vs. Team Canada at the WCs had much effect on, well, anything...

Interesting fact is that as a 33-year old and past his prime Petrov centered young Makarov and Krutov in the 1981 WC (Larionov's first big tournament with K & M was the 1981 Canada Cup). Petrov scored 10 pts, Krutov 9 pts, and Makarov 8 pts. So at least even a non-prime Petrov had the ability to 'use' his linemates pretty well

Is this one of those "technically" things? Because I'm pretty sure CSKA only failed to bring home the title twice between 1969 and 1990 - meaning complete domination through the 70s AND 80s. But hasn't an increasing talent pool and progress resulted in more parity and a developed two-way game on our side of the pond? Was this not also happening in Russia through the 80s before it became possible for the best over there to start coming to the NHL? When I look at the tables from the '70s vs the '80s in the Soviet league (quickly, mind you), it seems like there is less separation between the top and bottom playoff teams in the '80s, implying much deeper (or at least less concentrated) talent pool.

1970-89, CSKA was not the champion in 1974 (Krylya Sovetov) and 1976 (Spartak), and while I'm too lazy to check now (so sorry ), at least I remember CSKA being clearly more dominant in the 1980s; in the 1970s, Spartak at least was some kind of threat to CSKA, but during the following decade, there were really none. Whether the league in general - outside CSKA - was more competitive, I couldn't say.

As for their Soviet peers, Petrov had Alexander Maltsev as his top competion at center (to a lesser extent, Vladimir Shadrin), and Larionov had Vyacheslav Bykov... and Bykov really started to come of age (figuratively) only in the mid-80s. Who else was there? Kozhevnikov, Shepelev, Zhluktov, Kovin... It's quite strange, actually, that Larionov wasn't the All-Star center even more regularly than he was. Interesting thing is that for some years/seasons, they have 3 wingers as the All-Star forwards (e.g. Shalimov the center in 1982, Drozdetsky in 1984?), even though nearly always LW-C-RW was the norm.

Larionov made a Soviet league 1st all-star team and WC All-Star team with 15-20 scoring finishes. Observers definitely seemed to appreciate what he did in addition to scoring.

When did Larionov make the WC All-Star team with a 15-20 scoring finish? In 1983 he was 4th and 1987 he was 3rd in scoring.