Round 2, Vote 11 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-12 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 10 players.
• Top 5 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 11 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday December 15th. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday December 14th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

There are 14 eligible candidates for Vote 11 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals.

***You will now rank your Top 10 when voting.***

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Daniel Alfredsson
Helmut Balderis
Yvan Cournoyer
Gordie Drillon
Theo Fleury
Rod Gilbert
Ilya Kovalchuk
John LeClair
Rick Middleton
Cam Neely
Reg Noble
Bert Olmstead
Didier Pitre
Alexander Yakushev

 

[MXD]

Vote 11 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday December 15th. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday December 14th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

There are 14 eligible candidates for Vote 11 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals.

***You will now rank your Top 10 when voting.***

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Daniel Alfredsson
Helmut Balderis
Yvan Cournoyer
Gordie Drillon
Theo Fleury
Rod Gilbert
Ilya Kovalchuk
John LeClair
Rick Middleton
Cam Neely
Reg Noble
Bert Olmstead
Didier Pitre
Alexander Yakushev

Hurray for Olmstead and Yakushev (not that I see them THAT high this round, but they're at least interesting), and really Hurray for Fleury as well.

Reg Noble.. !? Not exactly where I would have started for PreWW-II players...

Quick impressions : Really like Cournoyer, Leclair, Neely, Fleury in that group. Pitre, Drillon and Gilbert make final ranking unless I really learn something new. Alfreddsson probably do as well. Tempted to dismiss Middleton and Olmstead as too soon, but really not sure of that. Kovalchuk misses it again.

Is it too late to add another player or two to that list?

 

[amnesiac]

little shocked not to see Gartner or Mogilny

I totally dismissed having Fleury from my list, but after checking the stats I think I wouldve put him.

Also missed Olmstead.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Other than Fluery and Shifty a pretty under whelming group of new entrants this round.

Some really good wingers not up yet.

 

[ted2019]

Am I missing something about Reg Noble that others don't? His numbers aren't impressive at all.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Am I missing something about Reg Noble that others don't? His numbers aren't impressive at all.

Like Pitre, played a lot as a defenseman. Apparently as a star defenseman.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Don't overlook Reg Noble. My impression from reading a lot of game summaries from his era is that he was more important than his numbers suggest.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Alfredsson (should be really close to Elias and not far behind Hossa) and Drillon (should be really close to Roy Conacher) will be at or near the top of my list.

Among the new candidates, Alexander Yakushev has the best shot to join them. I think that Yakushev is sometimes overrated by North Americans relative to other Soviets because the pinnacle of his career was during the 8 games of the 1972 Summit Series. But the fact that it took this long for him to show up makes me wonder if he used to be so overrated that he's now underrated. Yak was the best player on the second line of the USSR national team for quite a long time. Didn't play for the stacked Red Army team, which needs to be taken into account when looking at his domestic numbers.

LeClair and Cournoyer are starting to really look attractive now.

Bert Olmstead - I should be happy that we finally have another true Original 6 era candidate after several rounds without any. Still, I wonder if he's actually any better than George Armstrong, or if he just played on a much more offensive-minded team with better scorers.

Reg Noble? Glad to see we can get a chance to discuss him - really unique player - though at this point, I'm not sure what to make of him.

 

[Captain Bowie]

My first guy that didn't have on my top 80; Rick Middleton. I don't recall what it was I didn't like about him back in the summer, but I already know I've made a number of mistakes on that list that I would change now, this very well could be one of them.

Other than that, Gordie Drillon could very well be #1 for me this round. LeClair will be in the mix also.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

10-year VsX for post-expansion players

Posting this on top of the 7 year table this round for no particular reason.

Theoren Fleury 78.9
Ilya Kovalchuk 78.5
Daniel Alfredsson 78.4
Rod Gilbert 78.2
John LeClair 73.5
Yvan Cournoyer 69.6
Rick Middleton 68.4
Cam Neely 55.6

7 Year weighted Vs-X scores 1927 to 2014

A formula for determining the quality of a player's point production in his best 7 regular seasons, compared to a typical #2 scorer in the league those years.

Details here and here

War years players - I am now listing the "war year fudge" first with the raw VsX in parenthesis, since I think the war year fudge is a much better estimate of offensive value.

*Now including a war year adjustment for Drillon's 1942-43*

11 | Mike Bossy | 94.4
12 | Teemu Selanne | 92.9
13 | Martin St. Louis | 92.9
14 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
15 | Bernie Geoffrion | 90.2
16 | Busher Jackson | 90
17 | Mark Recchi | 88.6
18 | Brett Hull | 88.2
19 | Jari Kurri | 88.1
20 | Gordie Drillon | 87.2(88.1)
21 | Doug Bentley | 87.2(96.2)
22 | Jarome Iginla | 87
23 | Dickie Moore | 86
24 | Pavel Bure | 86
25 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
26 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
27 | Roy Conacher | 85.4(88.8)
28 | Toe Blake | 85.3(92.6)
39 | John Bucyk | 85.3
30 | Bryan Hextall | 84.5
31 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
32 | Syd Howe | 84.3(87.9)
33 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
34 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
35 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
36 | Aurel Joliet# | 83.1
37 | Marian Hossa | 82.6
38 | Daniel Alfredsson | 82.6
39 | Theoren Fleury | 82.3
40 | John LeClair | 82.1
41| Dany Heatley | 81.5
42| Ziggy Palffy | 80.6
43| Rod Gilbert | 80.2
44| Ken Hodge | 79.9
45| Brendan Shanahan | 79.3
46| Michel Goulet | 79.3
47 | Patrik Elias | 79.3
48 | Keith Tkachuk | 79.3
49 | Cecil Dillon | 78.4
50 | Alexander Mogilny | 78.1
51 | Daniel Sedin | 77.3
52| Bun Cook |76.6
53| Bert Olmstead | 76.3
54| Bobby Bauer | 76.2
55| Patrick Kane | 76.0
56| Bobby Rousseau| 76.0
57 | Alex Kovalev | 75.8
58| Herbie Lewis | 75.6
59| Pavol Demitra | 75.2
60 | Johnny Gottselig | 75.0
61| Lanny McDonald | 74.6
62| Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
63| Rick Middleton | 74.0
64| Milan Hejduk | 73.8
65| Yvan Cournoyer | 73.6
66| Woody Dumart | 73.5
67| Patrick Marleau | 73.3
68| Tony Amonte | 73.3
69| Gaye Stewart | 73.1
70| Ray Whitney | 73.0
-|-|-
-|Cam Neely |63.8

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Like Pitre, played a lot as a defenseman. Apparently as a star defenseman.

According to EagleBelfour's ATD profile (which I assume is referring to The Trail of the Stanley Cup), Noble was primarily:

A forward in the NHA in 1916-17
A forward in the NHL in 1917-18
A defenseman in the NHL in 1918-19
A forward in the NHL from 1919-20 to 1924-25
A defenseman in the NHL from 1925-26 to 1932-33

__________

On that 1958 GM poll for the "toughest player of all-time" that was referenced with regards to Bill Cook (1 of 6 GMs voted for Cook), 1 of 6 voted for Noble.

_________

In 1954, when Aurele Joliat was asked to pick an All-Star Team of the best players he played against, he picked " Benedict or Gardiner in goal; Shore and Noble on defense; Nighbor at centre; with Cook and Jackson on the wings. It's a well balanced unit." (Montreal Gazette, 2/13/54).

(There are a couple of these All-Star Teams picked by players floating around. I remembered this one because it looked so odd to see Noble as the other selection at D).
__________

That's all I got...No idea if Noble is legit top 60 material or not.

____

Edit: He wasn't inducted into the HHOF until 1962, behind numerous contemporaries, including (I'm listing the least impressive names): Frank Foyston, Frank Fredrickson, Herb Gardiner, George Hay, Duke Keats, Georges Boucher, Jack Walker. In the same class as contemporaries Punch Broadbent and Harry Hyland. Ahead of Harry Cameron (1963) and Clint Benedict (1965), but those two had their fair share of off-ice shenanigans. Ahead of Pitre (1963) and Dye (1970). Not sure how meaningful this is.

 

[unknown33]

Looks like I overrated Alfredsson with last round, I'm surprised.

 

[seventieslord]

little shocked not to see Gartner or Mogilny

I totally dismissed having Fleury from my list, but after checking the stats I think I wouldve put him.

Also missed Olmstead.

don't hold your breath waiting for those guys.

 

[seventieslord]

I think anyone who's saying Cournoyer looks really good here (and I'm among them) is giving him some implicit credit for VsX completely brutalizing him for some years in the 1970s when the Bruins wrecked the system. That's fine, but then his contemporary Gilbert deserves the same relative mental adjustment, and from what I can tell, it wouldn't take much mental adjustment to put him 2nd on the list for 7-year vsx, not too far behind Drillon, who only played 7 years, while Gilbert's next 6-best seasons are still better statistically than Neely's best 6 (!!!)

 

[seventieslord]

Middleton was pretty good defensively, and anchored the forward corps of a successful defensive team. I'd like to get a good idea of just how good he was defensively, though. I'll start with "better than Goulet but not quite as good as Propp/Hossa/Elias". anyone have anything to add to that?

I have all my scouting reports with me again, so I'll see what I can get in the next few days.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Don't overlook Reg Noble. My impression from reading a lot of game summaries from his era is that he was more important than his numbers suggest.

Hart voting and not reaching the HHOF until 1962 suggest otherwise perhaps?

Too many other good wingers left here this round for him to gain traction IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

don't hold your breath waiting for those guys.

You are probably right but really would either player look out of place this round?

It's not like the bar for wingers is really that high is it?

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think anyone who's saying Cournoyer looks really good here (and I'm among them) is giving him some implicit credit for VsX completely brutalizing him for some years in the 1970s when the Bruins wrecked the system. That's fine, but then his contemporary Gilbert deserves the same relative mental adjustment, and from what I can tell, it wouldn't take much mental adjustment to put him 2nd on the list for 7-year vsx, not too far behind Drillon, who only played 7 years, while Gilbert's next 6-best seasons are still better statistically than Neely's best 6 (!!!)

you are right on a VsX systme based on points Neely doesn't look good but as was pointed out last round his play per game basis, ie scoring impact and overall play is very good for this round , much better than his numbers suggest.

I say this in part as a counterpoint to a comment made last round about Kovo, who despite probably having the best goal scoring prime here this round (and last round too) didn't look all that great on the eye test.

Others like Neely and Fleury and Shifty did look really good on their eye tests.

One would also think that if we had actually seen Drillon play and get benched that his value would drop as well.

 

[MXD]

Hart voting and not reaching the HHOF until 1962 suggest otherwise perhaps?

Too many other good wingers left here this round for him to gain traction IMO.

HHOF induction date isn't exactly something I'd use against Noble if you're saying that Fleury and Middleton are interesting candidates.

I mean, Fleury and Middleton are probably more interesting at this stage, don't get me wrong on that.

Unless I'm forgetting somebody, they're in the top-4 of NHL non-HHOFers who haven't been voted in yet. Balderis isn't an NHLer for this purpose.

Nevermind -- top-5, just to be safe.

 

[MXD]

Middleton was pretty good defensively, and anchored the forward corps of a successful defensive team. I'd like to get a good idea of just how good he was defensively, though. I'll start with "better than Goulet but not quite as good as Propp/Hossa/Elias". anyone have anything to add to that?

I have all my scouting reports with me again, so I'll see what I can get in the next few days.

If he's inferior defensively to Propp (and I don't think its the case), then I suggest Propp is effectively blocking Middleton.

Speaking of Middleton, could it be possible that his Selke case is possibly not as good as what it should be ?

There was always this problem of the definition of that award. Was Middleton too good offensively to have a serious chance at it ?

Wasn't his good Selke results right up against Frank Sell... Ehh.. Bob Gainey ?

 

[sr edler]

I like Theo Fleury a lot, very versatile player. Good scorer, good defensively for a smallish 90s winger, 50 SH points, very good playoff record & good international resume. He will be in my top 4 this round, so watch out for that.

 

[BraveCanadian]

If he's inferior defensively to Propp (and I don't think its the case), then I suggest Propp is effectively blocking Middleton.

Speaking of Middleton, could it be possible that his Selke case is possibly not as good as what it should be ?

There was always this problem of the definition of that award. Was Middleton too good offensively to have a serious chance at it ?

Wasn't his good Selke results right up against Frank Sell... Ehh.. Bob Gainey ?

Always really hard to get a good handle on defensive play but Nifty was pretty good, particularly for a scoring winger. Much like a Goulet, maybe better but it is really tough to gauge.

I don't know if anyone has the numbers available but one thing that I think should always be taken into account is the split between the Garden and away games for Bruins players.

Taking away that extra space no doubt impacted Nifty's ability to generate offense but on the other hand I am pretty sure a lot of Bruins benefited defensively from that as well.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Middleton was pretty good defensively, and anchored the forward corps of a successful defensive team. I'd like to get a good idea of just how good he was defensively, though. I'll start with "better than Goulet but not quite as good as Propp/Hossa/Elias". anyone have anything to add to that?

I have all my scouting reports with me again, so I'll see what I can get in the next few days.

Middleton was definitely better than Goulet defensively.

Because I got to watch Middleton all the time, I can tell you he was one of the best defensive forwards in the early 80s. I didn't get to see Propp/Hossa/Elias nearly as much so its hard to say. Perhaps Middleton stood out more because there was so little great defense being played then, especially by wingers. But gun to my head, I'd say Middleton was as good as that trio. (Was Propp really that good?)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A couple years ago I had the pleasure of having dinner with Terr O'Reilly and Rick Middleton. Someone I knew won a contest and knowing I was a huge Bruins fan he invited me as one of his guest.

I sat between the two of them. Terry O'Reilly was one of the best people I ever met. Either that or the best actor. Anyway, I asked Middleton what Don Cherry did to turn him into a better defensive player, as he wasn't exactly known for that with the Rangers.

He said that Grapes told him, "When you're on the bench, watch what Marcotte and Cashman do on their shifts. See what they do away from the puck. And whatever you do, don't watch O'Reilly".