Round 2, Vote 11 (HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans)

[Theokritos]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 10 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 10 points, 2nd place votes worth 9 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

Vote 11 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday, February 16. You may PM votes to Theokritos starting on Monday, February 15. (The period is longer this time because we got 15 eligible players instead of 10-14.)

Vote 11 will be for places 46 through 50 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Vyacheslav Bykov
Jozef Golonka
Jaroslav Holík
Jiří Králík
Erich Kühnhackl
Jiří Lála
Igor Liba
Bohumil Modrý
Nils Nilsson
Vladimir Shadrin
Lars-Erik Sjöberg
Roland Stoltz
František Tikal
Richard Torriani
Gennady Tsygankov

Note that we are now voting for the top 10, rather than just top 8, as we aim to add 5 players per round

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Right off the bat, Shadrin, Sjoberg, Tikal, and Tsygankov look weak. Tikal and Tsygankov especially. (I would have preferred Kuzkin to Tsygankov if we're talking about golden era Soviets, but whatever, I don't think Kuzkin would be particularly strong now, either).

I guess the best comparable to Torriani is Malecek. How far behind Malecek is he?

At first glance, Nilsson seems like the cream of the pre-1963 crop.

 

[VMBM]

Happy about the addition of Golonka and Jaroslav Holik (both known as legendary, passionate performers vs USSR), Stoltz... I'm also interested in & open-minded about Modry... not so sure I will have him among my top players, though.

Bykov is a very nice surprise; there has been talk about ice-time lately, and I think he, if anyone, was a sufferer in that almost throughout his USSR career, playing behind KLM both on CSKA and on the national team. However, he still had many terrific international tournaments; 1986 WHC, 1987 Rendez-Vous, 1987 WHC, 1987 CC, especially the 1989 WHC, and the 1992 OG with the gold-winning unified team, plus many other good ones, e.g. as the captain of the 1993 World Champion Team Russia. But rather than his stats, he has mostly impressed me in the eye-test; in fact, in many games, he looks better than Igor Larionov. Had terrific wheels, passing skills and good versatility. Was a little of a late bloomer, though; he played his first WHC in 1983, when he was 22 (nearly 23), and played regularly on the ntl team only from 1985 on.

Gennady Tsygankov? Okay, he was a good defensive dman and I guess he was enough of a puck-carrier etc so that he got to play a 'midfielder' role on Tarasov's experimental top unit in 1971-72.* But imo he wasn't even better than Vasily Pervukhin, and I might agree the same vis-a-vis Kuzkin too. And of course he is the ******** who brutally offended Vlad Martinec at the 1974 WHC.
* In his book, Valery Kharlamov basically says that Tsygankov and Firsov had totally similar roles on the unit (others: Vikulov & Kharlamov the attackers, Ragulin 'the guardian' of the slot/in front of his own net)

Torriani but no Jaenecke? Hopefully RGO has time to contribute, as the pre-1950s players are certainly not among my expertise. But hey, is even the best Swiss player better than the best eligible Finn?!

The terminal absence of Vladimir Ruzicka is simply a shame; imo he is clearly the best of the 1980s CSSR forwards, when both stats & GS voting & longevity are taken into consideration.

Other ones who maybe would've deserved at least some discussion: Tord Lundström, Leif Holmqvist... maybe Josef Cerny, Lasse Björn, Puchkov & Konovalenko too.

 

[Theokritos]

Bykov is a very nice surprise; there has been talk about ice-time lately, and I think he, if anyone, was a sufferer in that almost throughout his USSR career, playing behind KLM both on CSKA and on the national team. However, he still had many terrific international tournaments; 1986 WHC, 1987 WHC, 1987 CC, especially the 1989 WHC, and the 1992 OG with the gold-winning unified team, plus many other good ones, e.g. as the captain of the 1993 World Champion Team Russia. But rather than his stats, he has mostly impressed me in the eye-test; in fact, in many games, he looks better than Igor Larionov. Had terrific wheels, passing skills and good versatility. Was a little of a late bloomer, though; he played his first WHC in 1983, when he was 22 (nearly 23), and played regularly on the ntl team only from 1985 on.

Vyacheslav Bykov:
His prime was from 1984-1995 IMO. What makes it slightly difficult to rank him is that he spent ~40% of his prime years playing in Switzerland (1990-1995). Soviet Player of the Year record (from 1984-1990): 2, 3, 5, 11, 11, 14. Had something of a career year in 1989 (2nd in SPY voting, WHC All-star) when the exodus to the NHL had not yet started (he polled ahead of all the members of the "Green Unit" except for Makarov in that year). As it is Bykov's record is pretty much on par with Shalimov in terms of peak (Shalimov: 3, 4, 7; one WHC All-star berth) and it's better in number of relevant years (he got votes in six years, Shalimov only got votes in five). The latter is remarkable given that Bykov didn't have a chance to get any votes from 1990-1995 (I think it's save to say he would have gotten some votes in most years, even if the USSR had remained intact and the Soviet league had not lost its star players to the NHL). So in my opinion there's a good case that Vyacheslav Bykov would have deserved to rank ahead of Viktor Shalimov who is the number 43 on our list now. It would have been interesting to see Bykov play in the NHL (the Québec Nordiques made him an offer together with his linemates Kamensky and Khomutov, so he could have ended up on the Stanley-Cup-winning Colorado Avalanche like Kamensky). A strong contender for a top 5 spot IMO.

 

[Theokritos]

The terminal absence of Vladimir Ruzicka is simply a shame; imo he is clearly the best of the 1980s CSSR forwards, when both stats & GS voting & longevity are taken into consideration.

Agreed.

Torriani but no Jaenecke? Hopefully RGO has time to contribute, as the pre-1950s players are certainly not among my expertise. But hey, is even the best Swiss player better than the best eligible Finn?!

But of course the only reason for this is that the Swiss were already playing hockey in the very first decade of the 20th century. Restrict the project to the post-WW2 era and you'll have dozens of Finns coming up before any Swiss player.

 

[VMBM]

Vyacheslav Bykov:
His prime was from 1984-1995 IMO. What makes it slightly difficult to rank him is that he spent ~40% of his prime years playing in Switzerland (1990-1995). Soviet Player of the Year record (from 1984-1990): 2, 3, 5, 11, 11, 14. Had something of a career year in 1989 (2nd in SPY voting, WHC All-star) when the exodus to the NHL had not yet started (he polled ahead of all the members of the "Green Unit" except for Makarov in that year). As it is Bykov's record is pretty much on par with Shalimov in terms of peak (Shalimov: 3, 4, 7; one WHC All-star berth) and it's better in number of relevant years (he got votes in six years, Shalimov only got votes in five). The latter is remarkable given that Bykov didn't have a chance to get any votes from 1990-1995 (I think it's save to say he would have gotten some votes in most years, even if the USSR had remained intact and the Soviet league had not lost its star players to the NHL). So in my opinion there's a good case that Vyacheslav Bykov would have deserved to rank ahead of Viktor Shalimov who is the number 43 on our list now. It would have been interesting to see Bykov play in the NHL (the Québec Nordiques made him an offer together with his linemates Kamensky and Khomutov, so he could have ended up on the Stanley-Cup-winning Colorado Avalanche like Kamensky). A strong contender for a top 5 spot IMO.

Unfortunately in this vote there's quite an 'an embarrassment of riches', unlike a couple of votes ago, lol.

BUT when considering that right now we have only the Green Unit and HÃ¥kan Loob (on the list) representing the 1980s skaters, and Ruzicka unavailable, well, I would certainly like to have him in my top 5. I mean, the Soviet hockey team was stronger than ever in the 1980s, and outside the Green Unit, Bykov was arguably its best skater, even though some other players might have been more in the limelight at times (e.g. Drozdetsky, Kamensky). And he is kind of a personal favourite too, so it would not be a big stretch at all.

I'm pretty sure I'll place Golonka above him, and probably Jaroslav Holik.* I used to rank Stoltz higher too, but his stock has dropped quite considerably in my book since (to my embarrasment!) I only recently realized that he played his first WHC only in 1957, despite having been born already in 1931, just like his defensive partner Lasse Björn, who played already at the 1952 OG. Stoltz still had a long & very good career on Tre Kronor, but...

Shadrin vs Bykov should be an interesting debate; the center of USSR's 2nd best line of the mid-1970s vs the center of USSR's 2nd best line of the late-1980s.

* EDIT: Nisse Nilsson too

 

[seventieslord]

Sometime in the last few years I posted a summary of torriani's stats in international tournaments by pool. He clearly dominated more in the C pool than the b, and more in the b than the a. He barely played in the a, actually.

I'll post it when I can get on my home computer to search for it. If anyone seasearched for it, it won't be hard to find.

I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of giving him one of these last spots. It feels like if we were around 50th in the centers project and we have to choose between Denis savard, Dale Hawerchuk, and... Bronco Horvath.

 

[Theokritos]

He clearly dominated more in the C pool than the b, and more in the b than the a. He barely played in the a, actually.

Not sure what you mean. The system with different tiers (B as lower than A and C as lower than B) was only introduced long after Torriani had retired.

 

[steve141]

I used to rank Stoltz higher too, but his stock has dropped quite considerably in my book since (to my embarrasment!) I only recently realized that he played his first WHC only in 1957, despite having been born already in 1931, just like his defensive partner Lasse Björn, who played already at the 1952 OG. Stoltz still had a long & very good career on Tre Kronor, but...

I'm disappointed that Bjorn will not be up for discussion in this project. Stoltz was a very good player in his own right, but Bjorn was definitely the better player. Together they are probably the best defensive pairing ever for Sweden. It's unfortunate that some of his best years came before the all-star voting started.

 

[Theokritos]

Stoltz was a very good player in his own right, but Bjorn was definitely the better player.

You think so? I realize the following is "just" on-paper resume, but we've got this:

The other one I found has the Swedish All-Star team of all-time by the hockeysverige.se, i.e. from the top unit (=a goalie, 5 skaters, coach) to the fourth unit. It's a bit more meaningful than the one above, I think, since it was done by 182 voters, including players (active & retired), 'leaders' (coaches etc.) and referees.

Nice, this deserves at least as much attention as the Czech "Player of the Century" voting mentioned earlier. Here are the players by position:

(...)

Defencemen
1st unit: Nicklas Lidström, Börje Salming
2nd unit: Lennart Svedberg, Erik Karlsson
3rd unit: Roland Stoltz, Tomas Jonsson
4th unit: Anders Eldebrink, Kenny Jönsson

And this:

Dagens Nyheters ranking of the 150 greatest Swedish athletes of all time has Stoltz as number 75 and Björn outside of the top 150.

http://www.dn.se/sport/150-framsta-svenska-idrottarna-genom-tiderna/

Did they get it wrong?

 

[seventieslord]

Not sure what you mean. The system with different tiers (B as lower than A and C as lower than B) was only introduced long after Torriani had retired.

Doh! Never mind. Torriani, not Tureanu. My apologies. I'm not usually up that early.

 

[MadArcand]

The terminal absence of Vladimir Ruzicka is simply a shame; imo he is clearly the best of the 1980s CSSR forwards, when both stats & GS voting & longevity are taken into consideration.

I agree that he should be up for debate, but he's very obviously *not* the best of the 80s forwards.

 

[seventieslord]

You think so? I realize the following is "just" on-paper resume, but we've got this:





And this:



Did they get it wrong?

Also, this:
- Stoltz played longer, getting into about 33% more games and scoring about 33% more points per game
- Stoltz earned 5 Swedish all-stars, Bjorn earned 2
- Longer international career with more points
- Each was named WEC top defenseman once, but one was in 1954 against really bad competition, and one was in 1963 againsat not great overall competition, but at least a very strong set of soviets (Sologubov, Davydov, Tregubov, Kuzkin, Ivanov) plus Tikal.

When Swedish hockey writer Kent Jönsson ranked the top-10 Swedish defensemen all-time in 2006, this is the list he came up with:

1. Börje Salming
2. Nicklas Lidström
3. Tomas Jonsson
4. Kenny Jönsson
5. Roland Stoltz
6. Stefan Persson
7. Lennart Svedberg
8. Ulf Samuelsson
9. Lasse Björn
10. xxxxxxxxxx
HM: Calle Johansson

I'm sure the right guy is up for discussion.

 

[steve141]

- Stoltz earned 5 Swedish all-stars, Bjorn earned 2

Now you are really Red Kellying Bjorn. Lasse Bjorn won the first ever Swedish All-Star vote, and the first ever World Championship vote. I can't say for sure that he would have won the WC vote in 1953, or the Swedish All-Star votes in 1950-53, but the case is pretty good considering he was the best defenceman on the best team at the time.

- Longer international career with more points

One played 217 national team games, one played 218.

Stoltz was better offensively, Bjorn was better defensively. Stoltz played more of a positional game, Bjorn played a more physical.

I'm sure the right guy is up for discussion.

This discussion has obviously been going on for more than 60 years now, so it's not like I don't think Stoltz over Bjorn is a valid opinion. It's more that I think it's unfortunate that only one of them is up for voting.

Roland Stoltz was a well-known sportscaster and tv personality after his career, so he is obviously better remembered today. I am far from convinced that contemporary sources would have him over Bjorn though.

 

[seventieslord]

One played 217 national team games, one played 218.

.

I'm not talking "national team games" and exhibition stuff, I'm talking major, serious tournaments. Iihf events. World championships and Olympics.

 

[Theokritos]

Now you are really Red Kellying Bjorn. Lasse Bjorn won the first ever Swedish All-Star vote, and the first ever World Championship vote. I can't say for sure that he would have won the WC vote in 1953, or the Swedish All-Star votes in 1950-53, but the case is pretty good considering he was the best defenceman on the best team at the time.

Yes, that's a good point. I've made the mistake of "Red Kellying" Björn myself before, but it's true that Swedish All-star voting didn't start before 1958-1959, so that metric isn't useful with Björn whose prime began several years earlier. He played for the Swedish national team from 1951 on.

This discussion has obviously been going on for more than 60 years now, so it's not like I don't think Stoltz over Bjorn is a valid opinion. It's more that I think it's unfortunate that only one of them is up for voting.

Roland Stoltz was a well-known sportscaster and tv personality after his career, so he is obviously better remembered today. I am far from convinced that contemporary sources would have him over Bjorn though.

No issue with that, the evidence we got is far from the most solid and contemporary sources would be much better than what we have. But you said that Björn "was definitely the better player" and I'd like to know what this verdict is based on.

 

[Theokritos]

I agree that he should be up for debate, but he's very obviously *not* the best of the 80s forwards.

Do you mean among eligible players we haven't voted in yet? Because that's what I guess VMBM has in mind.

 

[VMBM]

I agree that he should be up for debate, but he's very obviously *not* the best of the 80s forwards.

I very obviously totally disagree; Ruzicka would've been a strong candidate for top 50, whereas Liba is barely a top 60 player who has gotten an undeserved lift from some past ATD (my guess). Now let us move on.

 

[MadArcand]

I very obviously totally disagree; Ruzicka would've been a strong candidate for top 50, whereas Liba is barely a top 60 player who has gotten an undeserved lift from some past ATD (my guess). Now let us move on.

Yeah you disagree "just because". And when I post stats that expose the mirage that is Ruzicka's "scoring edge", like in the last thread, you just ignore it.

 

[VMBM]

Jozef Golonka and Jaroslav Holik vs. USSR etc

Jozef Golonka and Jaroslav Holik are interesting players in that both were known as very passionate about beating the hated Soviets, and this even manifested itself as sheer disrespect towards them. For example, after Golonka scored (or set up?!) the GWG vs USSR at the 1968 OG, he reputedly jeered at Ragulin who was a bit late in the play. And Jaroslav Holik reputedly spat at Ragulin at the 1969 WHC; I don't know why Ragulin, known pretty much as a gentle giant, had to be the patsy for their hatred so much. Maybe he was just always in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyway, this contempt undoubtedly also lifted their game against USSR, and both were known as very strong performers against the Russians.

I wanted to know how well their numbers correlate with their reputation. So, here are Golonka's and Jaroslav Holik's numbers in big international tournaments (WHC & OG in their case) vs. the Soviets:

Jozef Golonka - 9GP - 6+2 - 0.88 PPG

Tournament|Age|GP|G|A|PTS
WC 1959|21|1|1|1|2
OG 1960|22|1|0|0|0
OG 1964|26|1|3|0|3
WC 1965|27|1|0|0|0
WC 1966|28|1|0|0|0
WC 1967|29|1|1|0|1
OG 1968|30|1|1|1|2
WC 1969|31|2|0|0|0

Jaroslav Holík - 12 GP - 2+3 - 0.42 PPG

Tournament|Age|GP|G|A|PTS
WC 1965|22|1|0|0|0
WC 1966|23|1|0|0|0
WC 1967|24|1|0|0|0
WC 1969|26|2|1|2|3
WC 1970|27|2|0|0|0
OG 1972|29|1|0|0|0
WC 1972|29|2|1|1|2
WC 1973|30|2|0|0|0

For comparison, Martinec's and Hlinka's stats vs USSR, i.e. other Team CSSR players that, by reputation, were strong performers vs the Soviets (BTW, I hope that Hlinka's stats are finally right; I've had to adjust them and re-adjust them at least three times!):

Vladimír Martinec - 24GP - 7+8 - 0.625 PPG

Tournament|Age|GP|G|A|PTS
WC 1970|20|1|0|0|0
WC 1971|21|2|0|1|1
OG 1972|22|1|1|0|1
WC 1972|22|2|0|2|2
WC 1973|23|2|0|0|0
WC 1974|24|2|2|1|3
WC 1975|25|2|0|0|0
OG 1976|26|1|0|0|0
WC 1976|26|2|1|2|3
CC 1976|26|1|1|1|2
WC 1977|27|2|2|1|3
WC 1978|28|2|0|0|0
WC 1979|29|2|0|0|0
WC 1981|31|2|0|0|0

In years 1972-77 14 points in 15 matches.

Ivan Hlinka - 20 GP - 8+4 - 0.6 PPG

Tournament|Age|GP|G|A|PTS
WC 1971|21|2|0|0|0
OG 1972|22|1|0|1|1
WC 1972|22|1|0|0|0
WC 1973|23|1|0|0|0
WC 1974|24|2|2|0|2
WC 1975|25|1|0|0|0
OG 1976|26|1|1|0|1
WC 1976|26|2|2|0|2
CC 1976|26|1|0|0|0
WC 1977|27|2|0|2|2
WC 1978|28|2|2|0|2
WC 1979|29|2|1|0|1
WC 1981|31|2|0|1|1

Of interest might be also their rival and (near-)contemporary Anatoly Firsov's stats in WHC/OG games versus Czechoslovakia:

Anatoli Firsov vs. CSSR

Tournament|Age|GP|GO|AS|PTS|PPG
1964 WOG/WHC|22|1|1|0|1|
1965 WHC|24|1|0|1|1|
1966 WHC|25|1 |1 | 0|1|
1967 WHC|26| 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
1968 WOG/WHC|27| 1 | 0 | 1 |1|
1969 WHC|28| 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
1970 WHC|29| 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
1971 WHC|30| 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
1972 WOG|31| 1 | 1 | 0 |1|
TOTALS |-| 11 | 7 | 4 | 11 | 1

Also, Jaroslav's brother Jiri's stats vs. USSR:

Jiří Holík - 26 GP - 5+9 - 0.54 PPG

Tournament|Age|GP|G|A|PTS

OG 1964|19|1|0|1|1
WC 1965|20|1|0|0|0
WC 1966|21|1|0|0|0
WC 1967|22|1|0|0|0
OG 1968 |23|1|0|0|0
WC 1969 |24|2|1|2|3
WC 1970|25|2|0|1|1
WC 1971|26|2|0|2|2
OG 1972|27|1|0|0|0
WC 1972|27|2|0|0|0
WC 1973|28|2|1|1|2
WC 1974|29|2|1|0|1
WC 1975|30|2|1|0|1
OG 1976|31|1|0|0|0
WC 1976|31|2|0|2|2
CC 1976|32|1|0|0|0
WC 1977|32|2|1|0|1

So, in Golonka's case, his stats vs USSR support his reputation as a strong performer against them, in Jaroslav Holik's case, they don't. However, the sample size is small compared to e.g. Martinec and Hlinka. It is also easy to detect that Jaroslav Holik's strong games statistically happened at the 1969 WHC and 1972 WHC, when CSSR won those two games vs USSR and the World Championship on their home-ice, respectively. If one manages to score/set up goals in such important games (for a nation), he is bound to become a national hero, even an international one. However, I'm not trying to say that he wasn't a great performer in many other games too, and it should be always kept in mind that statistics never tell the whole story.

---

Generally, Golonka seems like a pretty strong candidate at this stage, as he was a realiable scorer in those 8 big international tournaments that he played. However, the lack of international accolades might hurt him somewhat. We know that he got at least good All-Star support at the 1965 WHC (6th among forwards), and not so much (or at all?) at the 1968 OG/WHC and 1969 WHC, but he was already 30/31 then. Unfortunately, he also suffered from a chronic lung disease, which hurt his career (missed the 1961 & 1963 WHCs).
Maybe a breakdown of Golonka's domestic scoring (placements) would be in order and would shed some more light (just urging someone to do it, I don't want to ... and probably even couldn't)


I think Jaroslav Holik's case rests mostly on his strong GS voting record, as well as strong All-Star voting record at the World Championships, not so much on his international record.

GS voting (top 20): 2nd (1972), 3rd (1969), 6th (1970), 10th (1973), 10th (1974), 11th (1971)
WHC AS voting, forwards*: 4th (1972), 5th (1969), 12th (1970)
* information for 1966, 1967 and 1973 tournaments not available

In the GS voting, he finished higher than his brother Jiri in 1969, 1970, and 1972 and in the WHC AS voting at least in 1969, 1970 (both got only little support, though) and 1972 (both got very good support). Unfortunately, they started to hand out the Golden Stick only in 1969 and we have only limited info on the WHC all-star voting. However, it seems quite clear that Jaroslav Holik's big years/seasons were especially 1969 and 1972, and I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't have done better or even as well in many other seasons. In any case, it could be said that Jaroslav had a somewhat higher peak than Jiri. But when you compare their longevity, especially internationally, there is no comparison, of course. Ergo, I'm not sure if the gap between them is getting too big or not.
As a matter of fact, I think I might have overrated Jaroslav Holik somewhat. Outside the 1969 and 1972 World Championships, his remaining international record just does not look very convincing in this company. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think him being a 'hothead' (e.g. politically) also hurt his career and made him miss the 1968 Olympics, for example. Whatever the case, he has one of the weakest international records of the available candidates. But in his case too his domestic record would be helpful.

 

[VMBM]

However, it seems quite clear that Jaroslav Holik's big years/seasons were especially 1969 and 1972, and I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't have done better or even as well in many other seasons.

Ooops... according to at least some sources, he had huge 1965-66 and 1966-67 seasons in terms of domestic scoring.

So, I might have made this assumption far too rashly (I already had to 'tone it down' a bit previously).

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

I don't have the assist numbers for the 1973 WHC; Jiri Holik scored a goal in the other game vs USSR, so Jaroslav Holik could very well have at least one assist.

In the first game vs the Soviets Kochta and Jiri Holik had one assist each. In the second game vs the Soviets Klapac had one assist.

 

[VMBM]

In the first game vs the Soviets Kochta and Jiri Holik had one assist each. In the second game vs the Soviets Klapac had one assist.

Cheers. So, this information improved Jiri Holik's stats somewhat > from 0.5 PPG to 0.54 PPG (0.538...).

 

[DN28]

I think Torriani really IS the best pre-WWII player after Malecek. Better than Jaenecke in my opinion.

But I don´t think he has much chance here. I thought Torriani wasn´t too far behind Malecek when both were playing at their peaks. After previous discussion about Malecek, this presumption seems wrong. On top of that, Torriani certainly had an linemates advantage. Cattini brothers were very good in their own right, they belonged to the best Euro players in 30s too. Malecek on the other hand didn´t have any winger that was close to his level..