Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 10 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 10 points, 2nd place votes worth 9 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 10 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Wednesday, February 3. You may PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe starting on Tuesday, February 2.

Vote 10 will be for places 40 through 45 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Jiří Bubla
Vlastimil Bubník
Jiří Králík
Erich Kühnhackl
Jiří Lála
Igor Liba
Peter Lindmark
Boris Mayorov
Nils Nilsson
Vladimir Shadrin
Viktor Shalimov
Lars-Erik Sjöberg
František Tikal
Vladimir Vikulov

Note that we are now voting for the top 10, rather than just top 8, as we aim to add 5 players per round

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Really happy with the new candidates.

First thoughts:

Vikulov and Shalimov have a legit shot at #1 and #2 on my list. At minimum, they will be quite a bit higher than Shadrin.

Glad to be able to discuss earlyish players Bubnik, Nilsson, and Mayorov. I'd like to find room for these 3 somewhere on our top 50 list. A shame we weren't able to compare Mayorov to Loktev and Almetov.

Kuhnhackl is interesting. The first non-USSR/CSSR/Sweden player candidate. Was he just a big fish in a small pond, or should we make room for him?

Tikal is the only one with no chance at my top 10; I'm skeptical whether Shadrin makes it, but we'll see.

 

[VMBM]

Nice.

Jozef Golonka would have been cool too, but...

Geez, I had forgotten Boris Mayorov. I think he'll be one of my top players in this vote.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nice.

Jozef Golonka would have been cool too, but...

Geez, I had forgotten Boris Mayorov. I think he'll be one of my top players in this vote.

Golonka and Jaroslav Holik are the two guys who stick out as sorely missing to me, so hopefully they show up next round.

But this round feels much better than last round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships

It's been a few rounds since I did this.

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

Goaltenders

Only 2 goaltenders are left to be named in more than 1 tournament. Both available

Peter Lindmark (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1981, 1986)
• All Star Goaltender (1981, 1986)

Jiri Kralik (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1982, 1985)
• All Star Goaltender (1982, 1985)

Defensemen

Only 3 defensemen left to be named in more than one tournament. 2 are available:

Ivan Tregubov (USSR) (not available)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1958, 1961)

Frantisek Tikal (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1964, 1965)
• All Star Defenseman (1965)

Jiri Bubla (CSSR)

• All Star Defenseman (1978, 1979)

Also available:

Lars-Erik Sjoberg - Directorate Best Defenseman & All-Star in 1974

Forwards

Only 3 forwards left to be named in more than 1 tournament. 2 are available

Nisse Nilsson (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Forward (1960)
• All Star Forward (1962)

Miroslav Vlach (CSSR) (not available)

• Directorate Best Forward (1963)
• All Star Forward (1961, 1963)

Vladimir Vikulov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1971, 1972)

Other forwards available:

Vlastimil Bubník - Directorate Best forward in 1961 (career largely predates All-Star teams)

Boris Mayorov - All-Star forward 1961. Original Directorate choice for Best forward in 1964*

Jiří Lála - Directorate Best forward in 1983

Vladimir Shadrin - no WHC awards
Erich Kühnhackl - no WHC awards
Igor Liba - no WHC awards
*

The best defense is a good offense’ would be an old adage familiar to many — a curious adaptation manifested itself at the 1964 Winter Olympic Games in the Austrian Alps.

Following the Soviet Union’s 3-2 victory over Canada to lock-up the gold medal in the last match at Innsbruck, the International Ice Hockey Federation Directorate chose USSR right wing BORIS MAYOROV for their Best Forward award. The 25-year-old Soviet captain finished the seven-game final round-robin with seven goals and ten points. This left the Spartak Moscow skater tied with four others, including Soviet teammates VYACHESLAV STARSHINOV and VIKTOR YAKUSHEV, for the second-highest point total at Innsbruck.

Soviet hockey officials, meanwhile, took the award and handed it EDUARD IVANOV. This despite the fact that the 25-year-old CSKA Moscow man was, in fact, a defenseman. Ivanov did score four goals in seven round-robin games, which set a new record for Soviet rearguards at the Winter Olympic Games.

Incredible as it may seem today, the IIHF accepted this and, thus, into the record books went Ivanov’s name.

http://www.goironpigs.com/?cat=67

______________________

High scoring Olympics not covered by the WHC awards (beginning in 1972, the Olympics no longer doubled as the WHCs):

1972: Vikulov tied (with 2 other players) for 2nd in scoring
1976: Shadrin, Shalimov, and Kuhnhackl involved in a 5-way tie for 1st in scoring
1984: Kuhnhackl 1st in scoring

________________________

Izvestia Golden Stick voting (based mostly on international play). Award existed 1979-1989:

Jiri Lala – 3rd(1981), 4th(1982), 3rd(1983), 4th(1985)
Peter Lindmark – 5th(1981), 3rd(1986), 5th(1988)
Jiri Kralik – 9th(1982), 5th(1983), 1st(1985)
Viktor Shalimov – 3rd(1982)

 

[MaxV]

Kuhnhackl is interesting. The first non-USSR/CSSR/Sweden player candidate. Was he just a big fish in a small pond, or should we make room for him?

In domestic competition, yes, but not in international competition.

The fact that he played for a far inferior hockey nation should be viewed in his favor imo.

How did he do in games vs the top international teams?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In domestic competition, yes, but not in international competition.

The fact that he played for a far inferior hockey nation should be viewed in his favor imo.

How did he do in games vs the top international teams?

Yes, leading one Olympics in scoring outright and tying for the lead in another Olympics looks impressive at first glance.

I want to know if he actually scored against the good teams, or if he racked up lots of points playing against B-level teams that the good teams didn't even have to play.

 

[Theokritos]

Vikulov and Shalimov have a legit shot at #1 and #2 on my list. At minimum, they will be quite a bit higher than Shadrin.

Soviet Player of the Year finishes:
Vikulov: 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 10, 11, 15
Shalimov: 3, 4, 7, 9, 15
Shadrin: 6, 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14

Vikulov has the best peak here. It's irritating his reputation took such a nosedive after the Summit Series (before: 4th, 2nd, 3rd; after: no votes, 11th, 10th, 10th, 9th), but he still got more relevant years than either Shalimov or Shadrin, so I think he should rank first among these three if we place any value on the Soviet voting. Shadrin has more years than Shalimov, but the latter clearly had the better peak (3, 4, 7 vs 6, 6, 8) so I definitely see the case for him over Shadrin.

 

[VMBM]

In domestic competition, yes, but not in international competition.

The fact that he played for a far inferior hockey nation should be viewed in his favor imo.

How did he do in games vs the top international teams?

Well, Finland probably always had a better team on paper than West Germany, and I can tell you that we Finns knew Kühnhackl bitterly well! I haven't checked his stats vs. Finland yet, but I could do that at some point.

It's not like Kühnhackl not scoring tons of points vs. USSR is a big minus, since USSR was so much superior than West Germany. (Almost) The same could be said about Czechoslovakia and Sweden and probably Canada. I'd be curious to know how he did statistically vs. the big countries, though. I know that he had at least one big game vs. CSSR at the 1982 WHC (I think?).

 

[MaxV]

Yes, leading one Olympics in scoring outright and tying for the lead in another Olympics looks impressive at first glance.

I want to know if he actually scored against the good teams, or if he racked up lots of points playing against B-level teams that the good teams didn't even have to play.

I would like to see that also.

But I don't know if that can be an absolute deciding factor. If he only put up decent numbers vs top teams that should be considered a plus since he probably wasn't getting much help from his teammates.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Soviet Player of the Year finishes:
Vikulov: 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 10, 11, 15
Shalimov: 3, 4, 7, 9, 15
Shadrin: 6, 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14

Vikulov has the best peak here. It's irritating his reputation took such a nosedive after the Summit Series (before: 4th, 2nd, 3rd; after: no votes, 11th, 10th, 10th, 9th), but he still got more relevant years than either Shalimov or Shadrin, so I think he should rank first among these three if we place any value on the Soviet voting. Shadrin has more years than Shalimov, but the latter clearly had the better peak (3, 4, 7 vs 6, 6, 8) so I definitely see the case for him over Shadrin.

Add in Vikulov's 2 consecutive WHC All-Star nods at forward (over excellent competition in the early 1970s) and his excellent performance at the 72 Olympics, and Vikulov looks to have had a short, but very high peak to go along with a good number of years as a relevant player.

 

[Theokritos]

Yes, leading one Olympics in scoring outright and tying for the lead in another Olympics looks impressive at first glance.

I want to know if he actually scored against the good teams, or if he racked up lots of points playing against B-level teams that the good teams didn't even have to play.

Kühnhackl's Olympic scoring in detail:

1976 Olympics: 5 games played, 5 goals + 5 assists
7-4 vs Poland: 2 goals, 0 assists
3-5 vs Finland: 1 goal, 0 assists
3-7 vs Soviet Union: 0 goals, 2 assists
4-7 vs Czechoslovakia: 1 goal, 0 assists
4-1 vs United States: 1 goal, 3 assists

1984 Olympics: 6 games played, 8 goals + 6 assists
8-1 vs Yugoslavia: 3 goals, 1 assist
8-5 vs Poland: 1 goal, 1 assist
1-1 vs Sweden: 0 goals, 0 assists
1-6 vs Soviet Union: 0 goals, 0 assists
9-4 vs Italy: 1 goal, 3 assists
7-4 vs Finland: 3 goals, 1 assist

 

[Theokritos]

Add in Vikulov's 2 consecutive WHC All-Star nods at forward (over excellent competition in the early 1970s) and his excellent performance at the 72 Olympics, and Vikulov looks to have had a short, but very high peak to go along with a good number of years as a relevant player.

Agreed, in this group of players he looks really good.

 

[MaxV]

Kühnhackl's Olympic scoring in detail:

1976 Olympics: 5 games played, 5 goals + 5 assists
7-4 vs Poland: 2 goals, 0 assists
3-5 vs Finland: 1 goal, 0 assists
3-7 vs Soviet Union: 0 goals, 2 assists
4-7 vs Czechoslovakia: 1 goal, 0 assists
4-1 vs United States: 1 goal, 3 assists

1984 Olympics: 6 games played, 8 goals + 6 assists
8-1 vs Yugoslavia: 3 goals, 1 assist
8-5 vs Poland: 1 goal, 1 assist
1-1 vs Sweden: 0 goals, 0 assists
1-6 vs Soviet Union: 0 goals, 0 assists
9-4 vs Italy: 1 goal, 3 assists
7-4 vs Finland: 3 goals, 1 assist

Those are strong stats. The excellent performances vs Finns and Americans are certainly no Stat padding.

2-point game vs USSR is no joke.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Those are strong stats. The excellent performances vs Finns and Americans are certainly no Stat padding.

2-point game vs USSR is no joke.

70s USA amateurs were not good, but other than that, I tend to agree. Tiny sample size though

 

[MaxV]

Hmm ... 1980 was the first time USA send NHL prospects?

I find that hard to believe.

 

[VMBM]

Hmm ... 1980 was the first time USA send NHL prospects?

I find that hard to believe.

USA's 1976 Olympic team was pretty weak, though, compared to e.g. 1980 and 1972 teams (when they overperformed). Wasn't Steve Jensen the biggest 'star' of the team? Buzz Schneider was there too, like 4 years later.

 

[Theokritos]

Kühnhackl's Olympic scoring in detail:

1976 Olympics: 5 games played, 5 goals + 5 assists
7-4 vs Poland: 2 goals, 0 assists
3-5 vs Finland: 1 goal, 0 assists
3-7 vs Soviet Union: 0 goals, 2 assists
4-7 vs Czechoslovakia: 1 goal, 0 assists
4-1 vs United States: 1 goal, 3 assists

1984 Olympics: 6 games played, 8 goals + 6 assists
8-1 vs Yugoslavia: 3 goals, 1 assist
8-5 vs Poland: 1 goal, 1 assist
1-1 vs Sweden: 0 goals, 0 assists
1-6 vs Soviet Union: 0 goals, 0 assists
9-4 vs Italy: 1 goal, 3 assists
7-4 vs Finland: 3 goals, 1 assist

Kühnhackl at the WHC 1976-1978 and 1981-1983 (I don't have the 1985 data):

Versus... | GP | G | A | P
United States|8|6|6|12
Finland|11|8|3|11
East Germany|6|4|5|9
Czechoslovakia|6|6|3|9
Italy|3|1|4|5
Canada|4|2|2|4
Romania|2|1|2|3
Sweden|6|1|1|2
Soviet Union|5|0|2|2
Netherlands|2|1|1|2
Poland|2|1|0|1

 

[VMBM]

Kühnhackl at the WHC 1976-1978 and 1981-1983 (I don't have the 1985 data):

Versus... | GP | G | A | P
United States|8|6|6|12
Finland|11|8|3|11
East Germany|6|4|5|9
Czechoslovakia|6|6|3|9
Italy|3|1|4|5
Canada|4|2|2|4
Romania|2|1|2|3
Sweden|6|1|1|2
Soviet Union|5|0|2|2
Netherlands|2|1|1|2
Poland|2|1|0|1

Heh, Kühnhackl kicked *** against Czechoslovakia!

On the other hand, his stats vs. Finland during that time period aren't quite as good as I had thought, although still pretty good; and (like said) Finland was always a better team on paper.

 

[Theokritos]

Heh, Kühnhackl kicked *** against Czechoslovakia!

On the other hand, his stats vs. Finland during that time period aren't quite as good as I had thought, although still pretty good; and (like said) Finland was always a better team on paper.

Interesting: Most of his scoring against Czechoslovakia came in the 1981-1983 period. Prior to that (1976-1978), not so much. Against Finland it's the other way round: Most of Kühnhackl's points come from 1976-1978, in the early 80s he didn't score as much against them anymore.

vs Czechoslovakia

Period | GP | G | A | P
1976-1978|3|2|0|2
1981-1983|3|4|3|9

vs Finland

Period | GP | G | A | P
1976-1978|6|8|1|9
1981-1983|5|0|2|2

Anyway, his overall scoring stats are nothing to be ashamed of and it's fair to say he didn't just prey on the weaker countries.

Kühnhackl in the eyes of US coach Murray Williamson:

"The first time you see him, you laugh to yourself and think he's too big to make it as a hockey player. He looks like a basketball player on skates. And then you start to watch his moves. His strength. The way he sets up plays and shoots, and most of all the way he skates. For a guy with a reach like Wilt Chamberlain his speed is amazing. In the Olympics he was going around defencemen like they were rooted to the spot."
Source

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Kühnhackl at the WHC 1976-1978 and 1981-1983 (I don't have the 1985 data):

Additional stats for the two missing tournaments.

1973
Czechoslovakia 2-3-0-3
Finland 2-0-1-1
Poland 2-3-1-4
Soviet Union 2-0-0-0
Sweden 2-0-0-0

1985
Canada 1-0-0-0
Czechoslovakia 1-0-0-0
East Germany 2-0-1-1
Finland 2-3-3-6
Soviet Union 1-0-0-0
Sweden 2-0-0-0
United States 1-0-0-0

 

[MaxV]

He really loved playing the Czechs and Finns.

That 1-1 game vs Sweden at 84 OG, I wonder if Germans were in full bunker mode.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Erich Kuhnhackl

Article from the 1977 German tour of Canada. Erich Kuhnhackl impressed. NHL and WHA teams were interested in his availability. Erich was interested in the salaries that 1976 Olympians like Steve Jensen were earning.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=IfUhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9aEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4340,363529

 

[DN28]

Vikulov looks like clear number one right now.

I´m a bit sceptical about Bubnik. I´ll make a post about him soon (hopefully) - positives and negatives that I found. So then we´ll decide what to do with him, but no way he should be above Modry (hopefully Modry will get his chance too).

Sjoberg didn´t impress many voters last round but I think he´s not out of place here. He had pretty long career with a lot of relevant seasons. I have him above Lindmark currently.

Kuhnhackl should be ahead of Liba/Lala, right? Anyone has Kuhnhackl´s scoring record in German league and his German MVP voting record?