Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Goaltenders final round)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
• Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 10 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run until Sunday, January 27th. You can send votes to seventieslord beginning on Friday, January 25th.

Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume that we never received it

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 15 candidates this time.

Vote 10 will be for places 37 through 40 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Lorne Chabot
Gerry Cheevers
Alec Connell
Vladimir Dzurilla
Riley Hern
Ron Hextall
Dave Kerr
Miikka Kiprusoff
Mike Liut
Henrik Lundqvist
Mike Richter
John Ross Roach
Al Rollins
Tim Thomas
Mike Vernon

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vezina Trophy Shares

times = times a player received at least 1 vote from a GM
share = sum of seasonal Vezina shares

player|times|share
Martin Brodeur|15|5.4072
Dominik Hasek|11|4.7591
Patrick Roy|17|4.6216
Ed Belfour|11|2.5044
Tom Barrasso|7|1.9833
Grant Fuhr|8|1.5901
Roberto Luongo|7|1.5600
Tim Thomas |3|1.5533
John Vanbiesbrouck|9|1.5329
Henrik Lundqvist |7|1.4933
Miikka Kiprusoff |7|1.4333
Evgeni Nabokov|6|1.2267
Ron Hextall |5|1.0359
Curtis Joseph|8|1.0247
Pete Peeters|3|1.0190
Ryan Miller|2|0.8667
Pekka Rinne |2|0.8400
Pelle Lindbergh|1|0.8381
Olaf Kolzig|3|0.8368
Mike Vernon |6|0.8359
Darren Puppa|2|0.8234
Kirk Mclean|2|0.7528
Marty Turco|3|0.7200
Jose Theodore|1|0.7000
Mike Liut |5|0.6762
Bob Froese|2|0.6286
Billy Smith|3|0.6190
...||
Mike Richter |5|0.2098

Thomas, Lundqvist and Kiprusoff received more votes for the Vezina than any available goaltenders, a step up from Nabokov. Hextall seems to lead "the pack."

Liut is hurt by the fact that 2 of his best 3 seasons (based on All Star votes) happened before the Vezina was voted on.

Richter, quite frankly, barely got any consideration for the Vezina over the course of his career. He's being considered for his performances in International Tournaments for Team USA, as much as anything else.

 

[MXD]

I just puked a bit in my mouth. For the first time in this process, Gerry Cheevers will NOT be in my "unofficial" last place!

Back on topic... My Top-3 is totally locked up at this point. 4th is mainly a toss up, with Lundqvist and newcomer JRR as the main candidates.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I just puked a bit in my mouth.

Besides this, which I actually thought I believe I muttered to my computer, "I think I'm gonna be sick..."

My gut feeling without any real reasoning yet: John Ross Roach and Dave Kerr make a serious case for the list...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vezina and All-Star voting for the modern candidates

Here are the records of the candidates who spent their careers in the Vezina era.

Hextall Vezina record: 1st (1987), 5th (1996), 7th (1989) 12th (1988), 13th (1995)*
Hextall All Star record: 1st (1987), 4th (1996) 5th (1989), 6th (1993), 7th (1988)

The media seemed to like Hextall more than the GMs did.

Vernon Vezina record: 2nd (1989), 4th (1995), 5th (1988), 7th (1998)*, 10th (1991)*, 11th (1987)*,
Vernon All Star record: 2nd (1989), 5th (1988), 7th (1987)

Richter Vezina record: 3rd (1991), 6th (1994), 6th (1997), 7th (1990)*, 8th (1992)*
Richter All Star record: 4th (1994), 5th (1991)

Kiprusoff Vezina record: 1st (2006), 2nd (2004), 3rd (2007), 5th (2008), 7th (2012)*, 8th (2009)*, 8th (2010)
Kiprusoff All Star record: 1st (2006), 4th (2004), 4th (2007), 5th (2010), 6th (2008), 6th (2009)

Lundqvist Vezina record: 1st (2012), 3rd (2006), 3rd (2007), 3rd (2008), 4th (2011), 6th (2009), 6th (2010)
Lundqvist All Star record: 1st (2012), 3rd (2006), 4th (2008), 5th (2011), 7th (2007), 9th (2009), 9th (2010)

Thomas Vezina record: 1st (2009), 1st (2011), 9th (2008)
Thomas All Star record: 1st (2009), 1st (2011), 10th (2008)

min 2 votes required for All Star records
*Only 1 2nd or 3rd place vote for the Vezina

Lundqvist has a nice little run of finishing at least 6th in Vezina voting in every season between the last two lockouts. And it wasn't with a tiny sample of votes either - he received 4 votes in 2010 and at least 7 votes (out of 30 GMs picking their top 3) in every other season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When looking at the Vezina results, I was struck by how close Mike Liut actually was to being a 2-time 1st Team All Star.

1987 VEZINA: Ron Hextall 65 (8-7-4); Mike Liut 60 (7-8-1); Grant Fuhr 19 (1-3-5);
1987 AS GOALTENDER: Ron Hextall 198 (22-28-4); Mike Liut 193 (27-18-4); Grant Fuhr 42 (4-3-13);

I'm not sure if Liut will be in my top 4, but he should probably find his way into my top 8.

 

[MXD]

Personnal note : The highest goalie not-available-for-voting in my initial was ranked 39th -- 4 ranks lower than Dave Kerr in my initial list seems wrong to me. At this point, anyways. The next one was at 45th, and I think I would lower him a bit as well, considering I lowered Giacomin (and that his guy needs to be quite a few spots below Giacomin). The best "current/modern" goalie who wasn't available for voting in my initial list was Tomas Vokoun. Still better than three guys available for this round -- one of them who didn't make my TOp-60.

But...

How well -- TDDM, you might now "allow" yourself to answer to this, but did Normie Smith and Roger Crozier ended up close enough for voting this round? Not that I'd give a vote to any of them -- well, Smith 8th seems like a possibility to me, but no more.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just puked a bit in my mouth. For the first time in this process, Gerry Cheevers will NOT be in my "unofficial" last place!

Back on topic... My Top-3 is totally locked up at this point. 4th is mainly a toss up, with Lundqvist and newcomer JRR as the main candidates.

Besides this, which I actually thought I believe I muttered to my computer, "I think I'm gonna be sick..."

My gut feeling without any real reasoning yet: John Ross Roach and Dave Kerr make a serious case for the list...

JRR is the only one of the new candidates even worth looking at, IMO. I actually like him better than contemporary Lorne Chabot. But he's still a step down from Alec Connell, right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How well -- TDDM, you might now "allow" yourself to answer to this, but did Normie Smith and Roger Crozier ended up close enough for voting this round? Not that I'd give a vote to any of them -- well, Smith 8th seems like a possibility to me, but no more.

I don't think it matters now, since they'll never be available. If we had extended the list, we would have had 3 new candidates next round because of natural breaks: Paddy Moran, Roger Crozier, and Jiri Kralik. Then 5 new candidates for the following round: Chris Osgood, Normie Smith, John Bouse Hutton, Seth Martin, and Pekka Lindmark.

I would have loved to
1) Discuss Moran, Kralik, Martin, and Lindmark as legit top 50 candidates.
2) Seen Mike's reaction when Osgood came up for vote.

But it wasn't to be.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't think it matters now, since they'll never be available. If we had extended the list, we would have had 3 new candidates next round because of natural breaks: Paddy Moran, Roger Crozier, and Jiri Kralik. Then 5 new candidates for the following round: Chris Osgood, Normie Smith, John Bouse Hutton, Seth Martin, and Pekka Lindmark.

I would have loved to
1) Discuss Moran, Kralik, Martin, and Lindmark as legit top 50 candidates.
2) Seen Mike's reaction when Osgood came up for vote.

But it wasn't to be.

Yes, that would have been great to see!

Of course, I would have been obligated to defend Osgood.

I saw Osgood play in New Haven........

 

[Michael Farkas]

2) Seen Mike's reaction when Osgood came up for vote.

Just take out the "I think" from my "I think I'm gonna be sick" reaction to the current group. One purely system goalie kept at bay, the establishment will take that as a win!

And with that win, "establishment" is now just behind Henrik Lundqvist in Vezina voting! What a twist!

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Wait. Hern and Roach haven't already been voted in?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wait. Hern and Roach haven't already been voted in?

Well, Hern can't be voted in before LeSueur, can he? And Roach before Connell - maybe, but I'd need to be convinced.

 

[DaveG]

When looking at the Vezina results, I was struck by how close Mike Liut actually was to being a 2-time 1st Team All Star.

1987 VEZINA: Ron Hextall 65 (8-7-4); Mike Liut 60 (7-8-1); Grant Fuhr 19 (1-3-5);
1987 AS GOALTENDER: Ron Hextall 198 (22-28-4); Mike Liut 193 (27-18-4); Grant Fuhr 42 (4-3-13);

I'm not sure if Liut will be in my top 4, but he should probably find his way into my top 8.

I'll be that guy to advocate it yet again.

Luongo's in. Liut is basically Luongo of his era, with an even better top end. He has a Pearson, very easily could have had two Vezinas, and very nearly won a Hart against a Gretzky that absolutely obliterated the scoring race. Hardware isn't the end all be all, but I can honestly say I feel Liut meant more to his teams then Luongo did to Vancouver.

Given what else is up for vote this round I don't see much that should be keeping him out. He has better longevity then Thomas and Lundqvist (though that one will probably change next time we do this project), he doesn't have the system argument against him like Connell does, and quite frankly Cheevers getting more votes then him last round is outright confusing.

Will be interesting to see where Hern falls in all this.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lorne Chabot had 2 first-place votes last round and I honestly don't even remember his name being mentioned. Is there a big argument for him that's gone unspoken?

 

[quoipourquoi]

With all due respect to Liut, my first instincts are two Bruins, a Senator, and a Czechoslovakian.

Tim Thomas is probably my #1 this round based primarily upon two abnormally high peak regular season and playoff combos that book-end an injury year.

2009 (League Average: .908)
Thomas: 36-11-7, 2.10 GAA, .933 SPCT, 5 SOs
Fernandez: 16-8-3, 2.59 GAA, .910 SPCT, 1 SO
Playoffs
Thomas: 7-4, 1.85 GAA, .935 SPCT, 1 SO

2011 (League Average: .913)
Thomas: 35-11-9, 2.00 GAA, .938 SPCT, 9 SOs
Rask: 11-14-2, 2.67 GAA, .918 SPCT, 2 SOs
Playoffs
Thomas: 16-9, 1.98 GAA, .940, 4 SOs


In terms of minutes, he placed 14th both seasons in a 30-team league, so he is no more abnormally protected in these seasons than Lundqvist in 2006 (15th), Joseph in 2003 (14th), Roy in 2002 (14th), Belfour in 1999 (16th), Barrasso in 1998 (13th), or Vanbiesbrouck in 1994 (12th). Especially so, when you consider that he was 12th in shots against in 2009 and 10th in shots against in 2011.

He saw action; he just wasn't used in an iron-man role. Really, it's just the same five goaltenders playing 68-78 games in most seasons since the lockout: Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Lundqvist, Luongo, and Ward. Just because five players do it and collect high GP, Wins, and SOs doesn't mean that it is the new standard.

And his play outside of those two seasons is often overlooked. Consider the level to which he outplayed his backups prior to Claude Julien's arrival:

2006 (League Average: .901)
Thomas: .917; 38 games in the final 41 games of the season (January to April)
Raycroft: .879

2007 (League Average: .905)
Thomas: .905; 12th in minutes, 5th in shots against
Toivonen: .875


When you note that he played 38 of the last 41 games of the 2006 season (because that's when he got called up) when he posted his .917, ask yourself why he isn't getting full marks for doing what he could on a bottom-five team in the time he was allotted. 38/41 is not the same schedule as 38/82.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

.

He saw action; he just wasn't used in an iron-man role. Really, it's just the same five goaltenders playing 68-78 games in most seasons since the lockout: Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Lundqvist, Luongo, and Ward. Just because five players do it and collect high GP, Wins, and SOs doesn't mean that it is the new standard.

And I do think those guys should be rewarded for being workhorses (not that they are workhorses and nothing more - well, Kipper and Ward are of late but at least Kipper used to be great for his short peak). I don't think it's a surprise to anyone that Lundqvist is going to be my #1 this round. I actually was one of the few ones to have Kipper on my list last time - in 7th I think, so if I don't change things, Kipper would be in my top 4. But I really saw last round as basically a top 6, then the field, so it's possible I could bump Kipper for someone from the field (even for someone like Thomas).

 

[quoipourquoi]

And I do think those guys should be rewarded for being workhorses (not that they are workhorses and nothing more - well, Kipper and Ward are of late but at least Kipper used to be great for his short peak). I don't think it's a surprise to anyone that Lundqvist is going to be my #1 this round. I actually was one of the few ones to have Kipper on my list last time - in 7th I think, so if I don't change things, Kipper would be in my top 4. But I really saw last round as basically a top 6, then the field, so it's possible I could bump Kipper for someone from the field (even for someone like Thomas).

And that's fine - it's your opinion - but here's my mentality on the situation: A goaltender cannot control how often his coach plays him. And I've seen goaltenders with high-GP have good seasons, goaltenders with high-GP have bad seasons, goaltenders with average-GP have good seasons, and goaltenders with average-GP have bad seasons.

I don't much care if it's 55-65 games, 66-76 games, or if you're like Kiprusoff in 2004 or Thomas in 2006 and have 38 games on the back-nine of the season. I am yet to be convinced that more GP means a deterioration of play when there are so many examples of the opposite occurring. When you're good for a reasonable amount of time, you get a gold star for the season in my book.

I don't think voters think this way - Hell, I know they don't. And I think the voters' faith in GP-based statistics has resulted in Vezina and All-Star votes going to undeserving goaltenders in several years. Nabokov on 28 Vezina ballots in 2008 is the type of thing that still gives me nightmares. 28 GMs, and I wish someone could convince me that they didn't first just look at the Wins column only for a few of them to dock him one spot because Brodeur was visibly and statistically better.

Workhorses get Vezina votes; Fuhr started the trend in 1988. And that's fine until I'm arguing not against a player's season but instead against the existence of a trend. And no, Lundqvist isn't as guilty as Kiprusoff, but being a top-eight goaltender in his workhorse seasons and a top-two goaltender in his lighter-work seasons still doesn't reach the Thomas' peaks. I see no reason to vote for a low-peak goaltender with that shallow of a resume (no longevity either and middle-of-the-road playoffs). That would be like voting for Tomas Vokoun.

Thomas' 2009 and 2011 season/playoffs are that far ahead of Lundqvist's 2006 and 2012 in my eyes. Maybe they're not quite Hasek 1999 (though watch out: 70% of Vezina voters don't agree that he was the best that season, and 22% had him outside the top-three), but they're up there. I'm not going to look too much at someone's extra 90 GP if they're not even on a remotely similar level at their absolute bests.

We know Lundqvist will have a better career. He's only getting better, and Thomas is only getting stranger. But right now? Lundqvist is mostly just filler. It's Ed Belfour's 1990s career after the hot start and without the awesome playoffs. It's putting him on a good pace, but there aren't the type of highlights that warrant being called the best in the game, especially when someone else was spiking so much higher than everybody else twice in the same seven years while having an all-time great playoff career.

Their careers end today, I'd say Thomas was the best.

 

[quoipourquoi]

And I still think it's weird that we named Roberto Luongo above Tim Thomas. Just because.

 

[Theokritos]

Vladimir Dzurilla

I don't have all the information I woud like to have, but from what I was able to gather on Dzurilla (*2nd August 1942):

-Starting goaltender for Slovan Bratisava, one of the top teams in the Czechoslovak elite league, from 1960-1961 on when he was 18 years old.
- Backup goaltender for the National Team in the 1963 and 1964 World Championships behind veterans Josef Mikoláš (63) and Vladimir Nadrchal (64).
- Shares the starting duties with Nadrchal at the 1965 WC, has an impressive tournament and is voted Best Goaltender and All-Star Goaltender.
- At 23 he is starting goalie for the National Team in 65-66. Holeček, who is 20 months younger than Dzurilla, enters the picture as backup.
- Misses most of the 66-67 season and doesn't play for the National Team. Injured?
- Back to health, he is the starter again from 1968-1970. All-Star Goaltender in the 1969 WC.
- From the same time on we finally have awards and votings from Czechoslovakia available. 68-69: Dzurilla 5th in Golden Stick (Zlata Hokejka) voting behind Suchý, Jiřík and the Holík brothers. All-Star Goaltender. 69-70: 4th in Zlata Hokejka voting behind Suchý, Černý and Nedomanský. All-Star Goaltender.
- In 70-71 he doesn't play as much as before and misses the WC - possibly an injury in spring 1971? He drops to #11 in Zlata Hokejka voting. Holeček is 5th, voted All-Star Goaltender and becomes starter for the National Team with Dzurilla's backup at Bratislava, Marcel Sakáč, as backup.
- In 71-72 Dzurilla (29) bounces back to a 3rd place in Zlata Hokejka voting (behind Pospíšil and Ja.Holík), but Holeček is close behind (5th) and is voted All-Star goaltender. They share starting duties at the National Team with Dzurilla having the edge in the Olympics and Holeček in the WCs. Both were obviously considered to be more or less on par.
- Misses most of the 72-73 season. No Zlata Hokejka votes, doesn't play for the National Team. Injured? Outplayed at Bratislava by Marcel Sakač?
- In 1973 he leaves Bratislava and joins Brno. #31 in Zlata Hokejka voting in 73-74, not recalled to National Team. Same in 74-75.
- In 75-76 Dzurilla (33) bounces back. 9th in Zlata Hokejka voting, recalled to the National Team to play backup for Holeček at the 1976 WCs.
- In 76-77 he plays for Czechoslovakia at the Canada Cup and at the World Championships, overtaking Holeček in both tournaments. 6th in Zlata Hokejka voting (Holeček 8th), All-Star Goaltender, voted best goal tender by Tip Magazine.
- In 77-78 voted 15th for the Zlata Hokejka. Loses spot on the National Team.
- In 1978 he leaves Brno and Czechoslovakia (veteran players were allowed to go abroad by the Czechoslovak hockey federation) to play in West Germany. One season for Augsburg, three for Riessersee. Retirement in 1982.

This data suggests that Dzurilla was considered the best Czechoslovak Goaltender from 1965-1970 (minus the 66-67 injury season). In 64-65 he shared the best Czechoslovak Goaltender perception with Nadrchal and in 71-72 with Holeček. Then his stock dropped considerably until he had an impressive bounceback 75-77. But how much is the best Czechoslovak Goaltender during that time worth in an international comparison? Consider World Championship decorations:

1963: Seth Martin (best goaltender), Kjell Svensson (all-star)
1964: Seth Martin (both)
1965: Vladimir Dzurilla (both) - Seth Martin not there!
1966: Seth Martin (both)
1967: Carl Wetzel (both)
1968: Ken Broderick (both)
1969: Leif Holmqvist (best goaltender), Vladimir Dzurilla (all-star)
1970: Urpo Ylönen (best goaltender), Viktor Konovalenko (all-star) - Canada and the USA not there!

Is there a case for Dzurilla in the Top 40? I don't know, but Seth Martin is the dominant guy here and I don't see why Dzurilla should rank higher than him. A better comparison would be Ken Broderick: Dzurilla was considered better than Broderick in 1965, Broderick better than Dzurilla in 1968. Even if we take the level Tretiak demonstrated from 1972 on as an indication that European Goaltending took a considerable step forward between 1968 and 1972, I don't think that's enough to put Dzurilla ahead, especially since he didn't win any WC accolade in 1970.

 

[unknown33]

Lorne Chabot had 2 first-place votes last round and I honestly don't even remember his name being mentioned. Is there a big argument for him that's gone unspoken?

Chabot was on THN Top 100 list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

And I still think it's weird that we named Roberto Luongo above Tim Thomas. Just because.

...he's had a way better career. Is how that sentence should probably end. Without looking it up I'm asking, which side is higher?

- Luongo top-5 Vezina finishes
- Thomas' years as an NHL starter

It's gotta be close, right? Tied?

 

[seventieslord]

first instincts:

- I didn't take Richter seriously last round and I still don't. Vernon is at about the same level. Hextall is below them. Kipper is above that whole lot, and I can't even see myself voting him in. Liut and Thomas are better, and Lundqvist is better than them.

- I don't see myself voting for Dzurilla. If Seth Martin can't get in (and there's no guarantee he would or should if we went to 50, even) then Dzurilla can't either. It doesn't look like he was as good as Martin.

- Connell over Chabot/Kerr, Chabot/Kerr over Roach. Everyone agree?

- All I know about Hern's ranking is that it should be below LeSueur. With Percy in, you could reasonably vote Hern anywhere.

- That leaves Cheevers and Rollins. They have no contemporaries to compare to this round, so we're stuck trying to compare them to other players. There are good reasons to put them in, but also good reasons not to (what are they both, the 7th best of their generations, when others aren't nearly that represented yet?)

TBH, I knew Cheevers was gonna come up too early, get knocked down a few pegs but eventually get in the top-40, now I can't even say that's a guarantee. If you just look at the voting from last round and assume that continues, he ain't getting in. I'm not sure I like that. Who's the next-most recent HHOF goalie to not be in? Moran?

edit: obviously that would be Connell...

 

[quoipourquoi]

...he's had a way better career. Is how that sentence should probably end. Without looking it up I'm asking, which side is higher?

- Luongo top-5 Vezina finishes
- Thomas' years as an NHL starter

It's gotta be close, right? Tied?

You seem to be trying to squeeze a lot of mileage out of Tim Thomas losing his job one time in seven seasons to the league leader in save percentage because of a hip injury that required off-season surgery. When healthy, Tim Thomas was the starter for the Boston Bruins from January 2006 until I suppose this weekend.