Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the players listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
• Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
• Participants rank their top 8 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 8 points, 2nd place votes worth 7 points, etc.
• Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
• Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (15):
Batis; DN28; Hedberg; Johnny Engine; KriminellPipa; MadArcand; Robert Gordon Orr; Sanf; seventieslord; Sprague Cleghorn; Sturminator; TAnnala; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; VMBM

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone else who wishes to participate will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 1 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, November 21. You may PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe starting on Thursday, November 19.

We decided to give a little more than the normal week for the first discussion thread to get everyone going.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 1 will be for places 1 through 4 on the Top 50 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Vyacheslav Fetisov
Anatoli Firsov
Valeri Kharlamov
Sergei Makarov
Aleksandr Maltsev
Vladimir Martinec
Boris Mikhailov
Vladislav Tretiak
Valeri Vasiliev

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In case anyone is wondering, theokritos is the only one with access to the master list this time. In weeks when I am the one posting the thread, he is just sending me an alphabetical list of the players to add that week.

 

[VanIslander]

Observations and first impressions by a project outsider looking in:

• Eight Soviets and a Czechoslovakian, one pre-1970's and one longtime NHLer.
• I've often heemed and hummed about Makarov vs. Mikhailov, all things considered, in the all-time drafts, given their different skillsets.
• You basically have to cut Fetisov in half (or 1/3rd off) given how much respect and play he's had in the NHL, which is supposed to be beside the point here.
• Tretiak is clearly the most respected of the bunch by NHLers given how much ink and air time was spent on him back in the 1980's (I was a teenager back then). At times it was talked as if he single-handedly WAS the Soviet team.
• I actually expect Larionov to get more respect than some give him around here in this exercise given it's about the non-NHL only, and he was touted from all corners as the mastermind of the KLM line.
• Nice to see Vasiliev there but without reference to the ATD, it's odd to see him lumped with the others here, as he's rarely mentioned in talk of who's the very best Soviet ever. Every other player on that list I've heard an argument for.
• Maltsev has received some bad press over the years for soft play. He stands out as less than legendary compared to many others there.
• Looking forward to reading your guys' debates. It's fun to research hockey history, and if you got the time at the moment it's well worth it. Cheers!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships (1954-1991)

Since we are still at the top of the list, I am only including players named in at least 3 different seasons. I'm also including Boris Mikhailov, who doesn't meet the standard, but is eligible this round.

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

Goaltenders

Jiri Holecek (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
• All Star Goaltender (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Vladimir Tretiak (USSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1974, 1979, 1983)
• All Star Goaltender (1975, 1979, 1983)

Defensemen

Slava Fetisov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)
• All Star Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
• Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every WC held between 1982 and 1991 (plus 1978)

Valeri Vasiliev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1973, 1977, 1979)
• All Star Defenseman (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)

Jan Suchy (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1969, 1971)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Ragulin (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Alexei Kasatonov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1983)
• All Star Defenseman (1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1991)
• Note there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988

Frantisek Pospisil (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1972, 1976)
• All Star Defenseman (1972, 1976, 1977)

Nikolai Sologubov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Lennart Svedberg (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Forwards

Sergei Makarov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1979(3-way tie), 1985)
• All Star Forward (1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic years 1980, 1984, and 1988. Makarov was an All Star in every WC held between 1979 and 1989

Anatoli Firsov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1967, 1968, 1971)
• All Star Forward (1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Maltsev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
• All Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Vladimir Krutov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1986, 1987)
• All Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986, 1987)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic year 1984

Vladimir Martinec (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1976)
• All Star Forward (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1974)
• All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

Vladimir Petrov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Valeri Kharlamov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1972, 1973, 1976)

Boris Mikhailov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1973, 1979(3-way tie))
• All Star Forward (1973, 1979)

 

[canucks4ever]

Makarov's numbers suggest he peaked from 1980-1986, then declined from 87-89. If he was in the NHL in 1977, he probably takes a few years to develop and then becomes a megastar from 1980-1986, then from 1987-1992 puts together 6 more very good years. I have little doubt Makarov would be scoring 120-150 points every year from 1980-1986.

 

[Batis]

In my opinion the two players who have the best case for 1st place is Vyacheslav Fetisov and Sergei Makarov. On my preliminary list I had a hard time deciding between the two but in the end I went with Fetisov. It is clear that Fetisov stood out more among Soviet defencemen than Makarov did among forwards. The question is of course whether the stronger competition among Soviet forwards is enough to make up for that difference and put Makarov on top. In my opinion it is close. Very close.

Here I´ll repost some information I posted in the preliminary thread regarding the Soviet Player Of The Year shares of Makarov and Fetisov.

Sergei Makarov
84/85: 230/264 = 0.871
79/80: 156/207 = 0.754
88/89: 146/237 = 0.616
85/86: 169/282 = 0.599
81/82: 102/222 = 0.459
83/84: 78/261 = 0.299
86/87: 69/267 = 0.258
82/83: 50/243 = 0.206
87/88: 41/258 = 0.159
80/81: 35/222 = 0.158
77/78: 5/219 = 0.023
3-Year: 0.747
5-Year: 0.660
7-Year: 0.551

Vyacheslav Fetisov
85/86: 184/282 = 0.652
81/82: 116/222 = 0.523
87/88: 129/258 = 0.500
88/89: 110/237 = 0.464
84/85: 122/264 = 0.462
83/84: 82/261 = 0.314
77/78: 61/219 = 0.279
82/83: 44/243 = 0.181
86/87: 27/267 = 0.101
3-Year: 0.558
5-Year: 0.520
7-Year: 0.456

7 year average:
1. Sergei Makarov 0.551
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Igor Larionov 0.144
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.060

5 year average:
1. Sergei Makarov 0.660
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Igor Larionov 0.186
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.073

3 year average:
1. Sergei Makarov 0.747
2. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
4. Igor Larionov 0.260
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.089

Sergei Makarov: On paper clearly the strongest voting record of the players on the Green Unit. He was the clear leader both when looking at 3, 5 and 7 year averages. He recieved votes during 11 seasons and considering that he was a Soviet first team all-star in 78/79 it seems likely that he would have gotten some serious voting support during that season to if the poll had been conducted.

Vyacheslav Fetisov: Even if his voting record on paper not is quite as strong as Makarovs he actually stands out more among Soviet defencemen than Makarov does among Soviet forwards. The only weakness I can see with his voting record is that he "only" recieved votes during 9 seasons which actually is one season less than Kasatonov. It also seems far from certain that Fetisov would have recieved any votes during the 78/79 season when we consider both his missed time and him not being a Soviet all-star that year. Still his voting record is very impressive and when we consider how much he stood out among defencemen when it comes to top results he may actually rival Makarov as the player on the Green Unit with the strongest voting record.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I also had Fetisov and Makarov 1 and 2 (in that order). Expect a long pro-Fetisov post from me at some point.

The one thing I don't like about those being our top 2 is that it means that the top 2 players would have played for the same team at the same time, on the same unit. It might be correct, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

And I look and, at least on paper, at least in the way we'd normally compare NHL players, Fetisov and Makarov look to have dominated their peers quite a bit more than any other non-NHL Europeans since WW2, really. And the gap between them and the rest of the 80s Europeans does look larger than the gap between all the top 1970s Europeans.

On the other hand, Makarov as the top Soviet forward feels a little revisionist. Seems to me that most lists put together by people who saw them all play (as it was happening, not just in video after the fact) have Kharlamov or Firsov as the top Soviet forward. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.

 

[tarheelhockey]

My initial top-3, and I don't think it's very close either, is Fetisov-Makarov-Tretiak (alpha order).

Kharlamov has the reputation to be a solid consideration for #4, but I am in the camp that feels his reputation is inflated by his Summit Series performance. I'm not sure how much of a penalty to apply for that, though.

Thinking hard about Maltsev here. The softness thing hurts him a little, but was he really any softer than guys like Gretzky and Lemieux?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Observations and first impressions by a project outsider looking in:

• Eight Soviets and a Czechoslovakian, one pre-1970's and one longtime NHLer.
• I've often heemed and hummed about Makarov vs. Mikhailov, all things considered, in the all-time drafts, given their different skillsets.
• You basically have to cut Fetisov in half (or 1/3rd off) given how much respect and play he's had in the NHL, which is supposed to be beside the point here.
• Tretiak is clearly the most respected of the bunch by NHLers given how much ink and air time was spent on him back in the 1980's (I was a teenager back then). At times it was talked as if he single-handedly WAS the Soviet team.
• I actually expect Larionov to get more respect than some give him around here in this exercise given it's about the non-NHL only, and he was touted from all corners as the mastermind of the KLM line.
• Nice to see Vasiliev there but without reference to the ATD, it's odd to see him lumped with the others here, as he's rarely mentioned in talk of who's the very best Soviet ever. Every other player on that list I've heard an argument for.
• Maltsev has received some bad press over the years for soft play. He stands out as less than legendary compared to many others there.
• Looking forward to reading your guys' debates. It's fun to research hockey history, and if you got the time at the moment it's well worth it. Cheers!

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but I remember in the initial stage round that the entirety of a players career was to be considered and not have any players NHL time excluded form the process.

Has this changed?

i'm not a participant, as I don't have the time or inclination to participate in a project so euro based (as I don't have the time to do the research and compare 60's WHC compared to say the 80's and the exclusion of players really makes this an asterisk type of list for me but that's a personal thing and it's still very worthwhile to do and I look forward to seeing the discussion and results).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My initial top-3, and I don't think it's very close either, is Fetisov-Makarov-Tretiak (alpha order).

Kharlamov has the reputation to be a solid consideration for #4, but I am in the camp that feels his reputation is inflated by his Summit Series performance. I'm not sure how much of a penalty to apply for that, though.

Thinking hard about Maltsev here. The softness thing hurts him a little, but was he really any softer than guys like Gretzky and Lemieux?

Tretiak's domestic awards record is outstanding, and his reputation is very strong among North Americans, as well. But in Europe-wide competition, he just doesn't seem to have had quite as elite a reputation, and I know a lot of Europeans think Holecek was the better goalie. Now, I realize Holecek isn't eligible now, but for now, I have Tretiak closer to the bottom of these 9 players than to the top.

 

[canucks4ever]

The only issue I have with Fetisov is that it seems pretty clear based on the last 25 years that the soviet system produces far better forwards than defenseman. Russians are winning harts,art rosses and lindsays. They arent winning Norris trophies.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The only issue I have with Fetisov is that it seems pretty clear based on the last 25 years that the soviet system produces far better forwards than defenseman. Russians are winning harts,art rosses and lindsays. They arent winning Norris trophies.

Well, players today didn't grow up in the Soviet system - the Fedorov/Mogilny/Bure, Zubov/Gonchar/Konstantinov generation was the last one that did. I wonder if this perception would be different had Konstantinov not gotten into the car accident

 

[canucks4ever]

Well, players today didn't grow up in the Soviet system - the Fedorov/Mogilny/Bure, Zubov/Gonchar/Konstantinov generation was the last one that did. I wonder if this perception would be different had Konstantinov not gotten into the car accident

Well it was pretty clear from 1990-1992, that Makarov translated better into the nhl than Fetisov did. If Fetisov gets ranked as the greatest soviet, its a mistake IMO. I think Makarov would have been a consistent top 5 to top 10 scorer in the 80's. I'm hesistant to think Fetisov is actually winning norrises. Your entitled to your opinion, but ranking a defenseman as the greatest soviet just seems wrong.

All of the Russians from the 90s played in the soviet system and the forwards stood out far more in the 90s than the defenseman did.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well it was pretty clear from 1990-1992, that Makarov translated better into the nhl than Fetisov did. If Fetisov gets ranked as the greatest soviet, its a mistake IMO. I think Makarov would have been a consistent top 5 to top 10 scorer in the 80's. I'm hesistant to think Fetisov is actually winning norrises. Your entitled to your opinion, but ranking a defenseman as the greatest soviet just seems wrong.

All of the Russians from the 90s played in the soviet system and the forwards stood out far more in the 90s than the defenseman did.

Kasatonov played better than Fetisov when they first came to the NHL, as well. As a Devils fan, I assumed it was largely because Kasatonov played a simpler game, while Fetisov's more cerebral game relied more on getting reads off his teammates. (And later, Shanahan revealed that Fetisov's teammates were intentionally setting him up to fail on the ice).

 

[Voight]

.... How are voters determined?

 

[Batis]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42950853&postcount=13

This excellent Fetisov profile includes plenty of quotes that shows that alot of people considered Fetisov the best defenceman in the world in the mid 80´s.

Awhile back I also found a quote from James Patrick where he suggests that Fetisov may have been the greatest all-around defenceman that he had ever seen. It is also noteworthy that he made those comments right after playing an entire tournament on the same team as Ray Bourque.

I recently found this quote regarding the quality of prime Fetisov in a Toronto Star article published on september 17 1987, right after the end of the Canada Cup.

"Defenceman James Patrick has played the Soviets at least a dozen times with the 84 Canadian Olympic team, in the world tournament and the Canada Cup. He is an admirer of the mighty Fetisov, the Soviet defenceman whose breath could be felt on the neck of anyone you can name as best player in this tournament, even No, 99.
Of course I have not seen all the men who played that position in hockey, but has anyone ever been better than Fetisov in all parts of the game over 200 feet of ice? Patrick said."

That is some pretty high praise especially when we consider that Patrick just had spent a tournament playing on the same team as Ray Bourque when he said this. And while I dont think that Fetisov was the most complete player to ever play the game I think that his peak and prime level of play was higher than Robinsons and comparable to Potvins.

I personally rank Fetisov as the best defenceman in the world between 81/82-83/84 and one of the very best between 84/85-87/88. Therefore I think that if Fetisov would have been able to come over and adjust to the NHL at a young age it is more likely that he would win two or more Norris trophies than that he would fail to win one.

Another noteworthy thing is that Fetisov was first among defencemen in the Soviet player of the year voting 9 times (77/78 and 81/82-88/89). Pretty impressive in my opinion even if the Soviets may not have had the same depth among defencemen as they had among forwards. But he still beat out Vasiliev in 77/78 and 81/82 as well as consistently beating out Kasatonov between 81/82 and 88/89.

 

[Theokritos]

.... How are voters determined?

You submit a top 70 list:

[*]Voting

• Round 1
  • All participants submit a list of 70 players ranked in order. This is mandatory if you want to be eligible for Round 2. Lists may be submitted via PM to Theokritos, starting on Sept 15. Deadline is Sept 30. New deadline is October 7. Ballots will be accepted until the end of vote 1. Please PM Theokritos if you would like to participate and are unable to submit your list during this time frame.

 

[Theokritos]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42950853&postcount=13

This excellent Fetisov profile includes plenty of quotes that shows that alot of people considered Fetisov the best defenceman in the world in the mid 80´s.

Awhile back I also found a quote from James Patrick where he suggests that Fetisov may have been the greatest all-around defenceman that he had ever seen. It is also noteworthy that he made those comments right after playing an entire tournament on the same team as Ray Bourque.

The idea that Fetisov might be overrated because the Soviet Union didn't produce as many quality defencemen as forwards sounds intriguing, but I would put a lot more stock in it if there weren't tons of quotes from North Americans (including elite NHLers) singling him out for praise. Were they all so blinded that they mistook a good but not Norris level defenceman for someone on par with Potvin and Bourque (or even better when he was at his best)?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The Case for Slava Fetisov as #1

A. He was easily the best Soviet Defenseman of all-time, as shown by Player of the Year voting:

I was going to type up something here myself, but theokritos recently posted exactly what I wanted to show in another thread.

Fact of the matter is that Fetisov was the only Soviet defenceman who was consistently put on par with the best forwards by the observers back in the USSR. No other Soviet defenceman comes close to him in this regard. "Best player of the year" finishes from the Soviet Union:

No post-Soviet defenceman from Russia stood out from his peers (both defencemen as well as all players overall) as much as Fetisov did, he's in a tier of his own.

(Note that the Soviet Player of the Year award existed from 1968-1990)

B. Best awards record at the World Championships of any Player at any position

1. Voted Directorate Best Defenseman 5 Times (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)

• Jiri Holecek - Directorate Best Goaltender 5 Times (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978) is the only other player who was voted best at his position more than 3 times.
• Players who won the Directorate award at his position 3 times: Directorate Best Defenseman: Vasiliev (1973, 1977, 1979) and Sologubov (1956, 1957, 1960) Directorate Best Forward: Firsov (1967, 1968, 1971) and Maltsev (1970, 1972, 1981). Diretorate Best Goaltender: Tretiak (1974, 1979, 1983)

2. Voted Media All-Star Defenseman 9 Times (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)

• Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every World Championships held between 1982 and 1991 (plus 1978).
• Most Times All-Star Forward: 8 (Makarov - All-Star in Every WC Between 1979 and 1989)
• 2nd Most Times All-Star Defenseman: 5 (Vasiliev, Ragulin, Kasatonov)

C. Recieved more votes for the IIHF All-Time All-Star Team than any other player

Out of 56 voters:
Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak (Soviet Union) 30 votes
First defenceman: Viacheslav Fetisov (Soviet Union) 54 votes
Second defenceman: Börje Salming (Sweden) 17 votes
First winger: Valeri Kharlamov (Soviet Union) 21 votes
Second winger: Sergei Makarov (Soviet Union) 18 votes
Centre: Wayne Gretzky (Canada) 38 votes
IIHF Centennial All-Star Team - Wikipedia

D. Offensive dominance

• Led the Soviet league in scoring by a defenseman in 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1988. 2nd in 1983, 1985, 1989.
• Led 3 straight Olympic games in scoring by a defenseman (1980, 1984, 1988).
• 2nd in defenseman scoring (to Kasatonov then Bourque) in the 1981 and 1987 Canada Cups (didn't play in 1984).

E. Easily the best European defenseman of all-time. Whereas there really isn't a consensus best non-NHL European or goalie.

• I've seen all of Kharlamov, Firsov, Makarov, Maltsev, and Mikhailov argued as the best Soviet forward of all time.
• In North America, Tretiak is usually the only non-NHL goalie talked about, but there is a contingent in Europe who prefers Jiri Holecek. Indeed, Holecek's awards record at the World Championships when both were in their primes at the same time is a lot better.
• On the other hand, no other defenseman touches Fetisov. Jan Suchy might have peaked as high, but his prime was very short. Vasiliev, who does have a full career, was never as highly thought of as Fetisov.

F. Contribution to Team Success

• Fetisov was the long-serving captain of both CSKA and the Soviet National Team at a time when the teams were the most dominant they ever were.
• His teams won 11 Soviet League championships, 11 European Cups, 2 Olympic Golds, 7 World Championship Golds, and 1 Canada Cup

G. Was talked about as the best (non-Gretzky) player in the World in the NORTH AMERICAN media. I don't think the same could be said about any other non-NHL European at any time. (Kharlamov is probably the closest, but I don't think many North American really thought he was better than Phil Esposito or Guy Lafleur).

The following quotes are all in the Fetisov profile linked to previously. I'm focusing on specific instances of him being referred to as "the best player in the world" or the "best defenseman in the world" from North American sources.

Viacheslav Fetisov, the Soviet Union's premier defenseman and generally regarded by hockey people everywhere as the world's best defenseman.

Yesterday, a tremendous young Russian defenseman named Vyachesav Fetisov waited patiently for Gretzky to finish his bluff, then blithely skated off with the puck. Fetisov was a tower of strength all day, a fact that stunned us Canadians who had been contemptuous until now of Russian defensemen ("Can never learn to get it out of their own end").

(emphasis mine)

Viacheslav Fetisov, 24, is the star of the Soviet defense and the team captain for the tour. He stands 6-1 and 198, and is sometimes called "the Bobby Orr of Europe". Edmonton's Wayne Gretzky says Fetisov is the best defensemen he has ever played against.

If you can look past the red of his uniform, Fetisov may be the closest thing you'll ever see to Bobby Orr. In one particular sequence, he was skating so fast with the puck backwards that none of the Flyers could catch him.

Although both teams are coming off shutouts, the Soviets hold a strong defensive edge with the pairing of Viacheslav Fetisov and Alexsei Kasatonov, not so arguably the best defensive pairing ever to play the game. And, despite what you read about Wayne Gretzky, many people outside Alberta consider Fetisov to be the hands-down best all-around player in the world. Some even compare him to Bobby Orr.

Vyacheslav Fetisov, the giant Soviet defenseman who is regarded as the best in the world at that position, isn't in the latest Canada Cup lineup. He's suffering from an ankle injury..

He (Wayne Gretzky) said that Fetisov was excellent both offensively and defensively.

Defenseman Viacheslav Fetisov, considered by many the best defenseman in the world, broke his leg...

The 27-year-old defenseman was generally regarded as the best hockey player in the world last year... normally a hard-hitting but clean player...

You just don't find this level of respect from North Americans about any other non-NHL European

H. More anecdotal descriptions of his play style, plus praise from NHL players

See this profile: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=39739797&postcount=258 (already linked to by Batis, but I figured I'd include it here)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The idea that Fetisov might be overrated because the Soviet Union didn't produce as many quality defencemen as forwards sounds intriguing, but I would put a lot more stock in it if there weren't tons of quotes from North Americans (including elite NHLers) singling him out for praise. Were they all so blinded that they mistook a good but not Norris level defenceman for someone on par with Potvin and Bourque (or even better when he was at his best)?

To play Devil's Advocate, it's possible that Fetisov was overrated by North Americans because he played a more "North American game," with the two-way play and physical game.

On the flipside, perhaps we should give Fetisov extra credit for being talented enough to dominate at a position that traditionally wasn't developed as well by the USSR. (The same could be said of Tretiak too).

 

[Batis]

Great post about the case for Fetisov TDMM.

I have found some high praise about Makarov in North American media that I thought I might share. If nothing else than to even things out abit between the two after your brilliant post The praise is perhaps not as high and certainly not as extensive as the praise for Fetisov though but still noteworthy.

Toronto Star (1971-2011); Sep 9, 1981;
pg. D2

"Here was the proposition: By a stroke of magic, NHL-clubs are permitted to sign members of the Soviet Union national team line-up. Whom would you take?

Given the situation in the NHL today, I imagine most of us would grab No. 2 (Vyacheslav Fetisov) on defence, says Max McNab general manager of the Washington Capitals. The way he moves the puck and sets up plays, he´s just what everybody is looking for.

But I think most of us agree No. 24 (Sergei Makarov), the young rightwinger, is their best player."

Toronto Star (1971-2011); Jan 5, 1986;
pg. G1

"Hockey Hall of Famers Harry Howell and Gump Worsley, now NHL-scouts, were asked to name the one player who would be their choice if they could pick one man from the Central Red Army team. They replied in unison No. 24, Sergei Makarov. He controls the game."

Toronto Star (1971-2011); Sep 1, 1981;
pg. M11

"European fans consider Soviets Sergei Makarov (24) worlds best hockey player."

"Only 5-foot-8 and 165 pounds, Makarov will seem out of place against giant defenders like Barry Beck and Larry Robinson. But he has uncanny mobility, in addition to sheer, dazzling speed. In Europe, he is considered the worlds greatest hockey player. They haven´t seen Wayne Gretzky, you know."

Toronto Star (1971-2011); Aug 15, 1987;
pg. D1 *

"Tommy Sandlin, Swedens coach, wishes NHL-regulations were in force during the Canada Cup. He likes the so-called Gretzky rule which means teams don´t play shorthanded when members of each side are penalized simultaneously. In international competition these coinciding minors must be served.

I understand the change was made because of what Wayne Gretzky was doing when he had extra room to play in, Sandlin says. But let me assure you Sergei Makarov and Vladimir Krutov of the Soviet Union are just as dangerous in these situations."

* This segment is very hard to read because the text has faded. I hope I copied it correctly.

Now the two last quotes is of course the opinion of European observers (fans and Tommy Sandlin). The two first quotes however shows that at least some North American observers held Makarov in higher regard than Fetisov.

 

[seventieslord]

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but I remember in the initial stage round that the entirety of a players career was to be considered and not have any players NHL time excluded form the process.

Has this changed?

i'm not a participant, as I don't have the time or inclination to participate in a project so euro based (as I don't have the time to do the research and compare 60's WHC compared to say the 80's and the exclusion of players really makes this an asterisk type of list for me but that's a personal thing and it's still very worthwhile to do and I look forward to seeing the discussion and results).

No, this has not changed. We determined which players did and didn't count for this project, and those who did are to be judged based on their entire careers.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I think it's safe to say that most of us here will have a top-4 consisting of Tretiak, Makarov, Fetisov and Kharlamov in whatever order.

Among the remaining wingers, the usual ranking here is Mikhailov > Firsov > Martinec. But, how about a different order of Firsov > Martinec > Mikhailov? Firsov has quite the reputation among Russian fans (2nd or 3rd best among FW?), and Martinec has 4 WC AST berths compared to Mikhailov's 2, though he has one less Best FWs than Mikhailov. Mikhailov also played with superior linemates compared to Martinec's.

This argument is not very well fleshed out so perhaps someone that's more well learned on this topic could back it up or refute it.

 

[Batis]

It seems to me like Firsov sometimes gets underrated around here because of having his prime in the years leading up to the 1972 Summit Series instead of the years right after the historic event. What sometimes seems to get forgotten is that Firsov had a very significant career overlap with all the 70´s stars where Firsov for the most part still was considered the best Soviet player. The career overlap between Firsov and Mikhailov is actually quite long. From Mikhailovs first relatively full season in 65/66 to Firsovs last full season in 72/73 they played in the same league for 8 seasons. Let us take a look at the Soviet player of the year voting record of the two players during that timeframe.

67/68
Anatoli Firsov 137 (1st)
Boris Mikhailov 0

68/69
Anatoli Firsov 68 (1st)
Boris Mikhailov 30 (5th)

69/70
Anatoli Firsov 10 (7th)
Boris Mikhailov 0

70/71
Anatoli Firsov 131 (1st)
Boris Mikhailov 5 (9th)

71/72
Anatoli Firsov 17 (5th)
Boris Mikhailov 0

72/73
Boris Mikhailov 34 (5th)
Anatoli Firsov 0

Let us do the same with WHC All-Star voting record during their international career overlap (1969-1972)

WHC 1969
Anatoli Firsov 99 (2nd among forwards)
Boris Mikhailov Does not appear on the list and for sure had less than 32

WHC 1970
Anatoli Firsov 59 (2nd among forwards)
Boris Mikhailov 1 (Tied for 16th among forwards)

WHC 1971
Anatoli Firsov 44 (1st among forwards)
Boris Mikhailov 2 (Tied for 12th among forwards)

All in all I personally think that it is very clear that Firsov was considered the much better player during their relatively long career overlap. Of course Mikhailov achievied a lot after Firsov retired but in my opinion not quite enough to close the massive gap that Firsov had during their career overlap.
I go into this round with Firsov as one of the guys fighting for 3rd place on my list with his main competition for that spot right now being Kharlamov and Tretiak.