Add Sawchuk to that list for me. Hall at the end of the top 20. But those 4 (Sawchuk, Plante, Hasek, Roy) are my top 4 as of right now goalie wise, although neither is going to crack my top 10. Assuming that all are still available next round, which looks to be the trend judging by peoples early top 10s, all 4 will likely be within 5 or 6 spots of eachother.
The large problem with Sawchuk is that all of his accomplishments are within a 5 year span, and that the rest of his career is unimpressive.
I was a big Sawchuk supporter last time around, and was a big fan of his back in the day, but I did not realize just how focused his accomplishments really were.
Round 3 of voting from last time has all the arguments if you want to reread them. I may quote a few later when we get to the goalie debate.
What I meant by the above (but didn't say explicitly) is that Harvey's brutality appears to have been quite calculated, to include the spear of Sullivan. So the story goes, Sullivan had been annoying Plante all night long and Harvey warned him that there would be a price for his behavior. Red continued, and Harvey punished him. In light of the man's career as a whole, none of Harvey's actions during that incident seem unusual or out of control to me.
I don't see Harvey vs. Shore as being much of a debate, to be honest. The better argument is probably Harvey vs. Hull for that 5th spot. I fail to see what makes Hull clearly the more dominant player, and yet his placement at 5th seems to be accepted as canon by many posters here.
The Harvey Shore argument has me once again flip flopping on their status. No matter what, they are the consensus #2-3 Defensemen of all time, and however we slice it, the top 10 players here are the greats. The differences between 5-10 are very small.
I will however make the case for Bobby Hull.
Offensively: The greatest goalscorer ever to play. Bobby Hull has 7 goalscoring titles, 2 Runner up's and several more top 6 goalscoring finishes, and he likely would have more high finishes if had no defected to the WHA. The dominance of his goalscoring titles over the runner up's is unmatched by anyone. Hull was also top 6 in assists five times in his career. Winner of 3 Art Ross trophies and Runner up for 3 More. In total, Hull was top 10 in scoring 11 times after his breakout year in 59-60 right up until he left the NHL for the WHA in 72-73. It may surprise people to learn that Hull played on a separate line than Stan Mikita, generally with Forwards such as Bill Hay and Chiko Maki, while Mikita played on the scooter line with Ab Mcdonald and Kenny Wharam. Hull was such a phenomenal skater that he could burn you 9 times out of 10 if you did not play very conservatively and keep a man back. Hull had the most blazing slapshot of his era(Or any era to be honest). Goaltenders were literally afraid of his shot.
"Stopping on of Hull's shots with your pads is like getting slugged with a sledgehammer" -Johnny Bower
"His shot is like a piece of lead. One of his hard shots would break my mask if it hit it. I've caught one on my arm, and it was paralyzed for five minutes afterwards. Sometimes it drops five or six inches. you have to see it to believe it. Some goalies would try to grab one of Hull's bullets with their glove only to see their wrist snap backwards and watch the puck escape into the net" -Jacques Plante
A shot he used to full advantage. In an era when few goaltenders wore masks, One of Hull's favorite tactics was, if he was nearing the end of a shift and did not have an angle for a good shot on net, he would wind up and blast it with everything he had just to have it zip by the opposing netminders head, slam into the glass and remind them just how devastating his shot was and think about it the entire time until his next shift.(see legends of Hockey)
Defensively: Hull was a fixture on the PK in Chicago because of his speed, and was generally thought of as a very good two way forward. At least on par with Jean Beliveau. Hull was very good with his stick at intercepting pucks and using his unbelievable speed to charge a rush up ice. As I said before, the opposing team needed to be very aware of Hull, and keep a man back at all times, or risk having him suddenly be gone.
Ill include a clip I took a few years ago as an example.
From Sports Illustrated regarding the first year after Bobby Defected:
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1086950/1/index.htm
"Our trouble," explained Chicago's Stan Mikita, "has been that we no longer have the guy who always got the big goal for us when we needed it." Not having Hull has presented serious defensive problems for the Hawks, too. "Never, never have I had to stop—or try to stop—so many good scoring chances," said Goalie Tony Esposito. "When Bobby was on the ice for 30 minutes a game the other teams had to worry about him all that time. They couldn't get very ambitious themselves because Bobby would burn them at the other end. Without Bobby to worry about, they're not afraid to take liberties." Esposito shook his head. "We lost only 17 games all last year," he said, "but we've lost 14 games already—and we're not even halfway through the schedule."
Hart Voting and all star Selections: As Hockey Outsider's research shows, Hull won 2 Hart's, was Runner up for 2 More, and 3rd place for 4 more, with 1 more 5th place finish to top it off. There are few other players available who can match or exceed that total. In fact, the only 2 who do are Gordie Howe and Wayne Gretzky, while Beliveau ties him as 3a due to more 2nd place finishes. Directly after them are Orr, Lemieux and Shore, and 2 of those players would likely have passed Hull in shares if not for shortened careers. In any case, its fine company. Especially given the competition he was facing for those Shares.
His 10 1st team all stars and 2 Second teams in a fairly strong LW time in the NHL do not hurt either, nor do his 3 1st teams and two 2nd teams in the WHA.
WHA:When Hull left for the WHA, he was still a top Hockey player(Finished 2nd overall in goal scoring and top 7 in points). He has at least 5 WHA years that I think would be elite NHL years as well. Sure his PPG shot through the stratosphere in the WHA, but that is to be expected in a weaker league that was more run and gun than the defense first Hawks he was accustomed to.
As I see it, he has a total of 16 Elite pro Hockey years, and then 4 more years that were a step below Elite, but were still superstar caliber. He finishes 20th, 21st, 13th and 15th in points(Several of those years were top 10 in goals)
He also won 2 Gordie Howe MVP trophies in his 5 great WHA years. Obviously not Hart trophy caliber, but he was still one of the best in the world, and would have been top 5 In Hart voting in the NHL as well on given years.
Playoffs:Was a terrific playoff performer. His playoff PPG was nearly identical to his regular season PPG, and his PPG in the playoffs in the years the Hawks made the finals was a healthy jump from his PPG from the regular seasons in those years(14% higher in the playoffs). His most impressive Playoffs would have to be 64-65, when he lead his team in scoring to game 7 against the Montreal Dynasty with 10 goals and 17 points in 14 games(The next best Hawks scorer had 3 goals and 12 points), and his display of brilliance to the 71 finals against, again, Montreal, taking them to game 7. Hull had 11 goals and 25 points in 18 games
The Hawks should have won more cups, but I place the blame for them not winning more on other factors, and players in particular(Hall. But that is another debate).
When Someone asked me why I take Harvey over Bourque the other day and questioned how Bourque has Harvey beat in 8 years worth of Longevity, I responded by saying that Harvey's Peak/prime eclipses Bourque's and that his playoff play was among the best ever, canceling out the longevity edge.
If you are debating Hull for that 5th spot over Harvey, it should be close. But ultimately, Hull's peak/Prime was incredible enough to battle Harvey straight up(I would say their best 5-10 years wash each other out) and he also has a longevity edge on top of it. Harvey wins in the playoffs department, but Hull was no slouch either, raising his game when it counted.
In any case, it is close, but that is my case for Bobby Hull.
