Round 2, Vote 1 (2009 update)

[FissionFire]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (36):
BM67, Canadiens1958, Canadiens Fan, cottonking, DaveG, Dennis_Bonvie, EllisToLeafsNation, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, Jekyll, Jungosi, Kyle McMahon, lextune, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, NOTENOUGHBREWER, overpass, papershoes, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, quoipourquoi, Radovsky, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shirtless Joe, Spitfire11, Sturminator, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGoldenJet, tommygunn, Triffy, ushvinder, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

Click to read more...

 

[FissionFire]

*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 18 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 8/2. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 8/2, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 1 will be for places 1 through 10 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Jean Beliveau
Raymond Bourque
Wayne Gretzky
Doug Harvey
Dominik Hasek
Gordie Howe
Bobby Hull
Mario Lemieux
Stan Mikita
Howie Morenz
Bobby Orr
Jacques Plante
Maurice Richard
Patrick Roy
Eddie Shore

 

[FissionFire]

I apologize to everyone for taking so long to get this rolling. Hopefully things run smoothly now.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

I'm happy to see this up and running again. I've changed my username from Shlomo to my current name, hopefully this won't cause any problems/confusion.

Among these 10 players we're going go vote for first, I plan to spend any time I can spare on discussing Howe (as well as the others in The Big 4 - Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux), Shore, Harvey and Morenz. Sure, there will be time for the other guys too, but I hope to focus on the ones I've mentioned.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You might want to email the voters so they know this is happening now. A lot of people barely check hfboards in the offseason.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

10 players seems like a lot to keep track of, but I guess it is just an update.

Anyway, this is how I see it:

1-3. Gretzky/Howe/Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Hull
6-7. Beliveau/Richard
8-10. Harvey/Shore/?

It'll be tough but not impossible to knock Gretzky out of my #1 spot. He has a peak comparable to only Orr, and has far greater longevity than Orr. Currently, I have Howe over Orr (due to a strong case by FF last time), but I'm open to change.

I have Beliveau and Richard a small but clear step over Harvey and Shore due to their excellent longevity and key roles on multiple Cup teams outside the 50s dynasty.

The final player in the top 10 should be either Morenz or the top goalie. I think I had my top goalie (Roy) rated 8th. Bourque could sneak into the tenth spot, but I think he's far enough behind Harvey and Shore to knock him out of the top 10.

Mikita is the only player listed that I won't consider for the top 10.

Finally, I guess we'll see how it goes, but is one thread really enough for Gretzky vs. Howe vs. Orr, Beliveau vs. Richard, Harvey vs. Shore vs. Morenz, AND the debate over the top goalie? I guess we'll see.

 

[seventieslord]

No surprises in the top-15 whatsoever. This pretty much mirrors my own top-15.

 

[Pear Juice]

10 players seems like a lot to keep track of, but I guess it is just an update.

Anyway, this is how I see it:

1-3. Gretzky/Howe/Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Hull
6-7. Beliveau/Richard
8-10. Harvey/Shore/?

It'll be tough but not impossible to knock Gretzky out of my #1 spot. He has a peak comparable to only Orr, and has far greater longevity than Orr. Currently, I have Howe over Orr (due to a strong case by FF last time), but I'm open to change.

I have Beliveau and Richard a small but clear step over Harvey and Shore due to their excellent longevity and key roles on multiple Cup teams outside the 50s dynasty.

The final player in the top 10 should be either Morenz or the top goalie. I think I had my top goalie (Roy) rated 8th. Bourque could sneak into the tenth spot, but I think he's far enough behind Harvey and Shore to knock him out of the top 10.

Mikita is the only player listed that I won't consider for the top 10.

Finally, I guess we'll see how it goes, but is one thread really enough for Gretzky vs. Howe vs. Orr, Beliveau vs. Richard, Harvey vs. Shore vs. Morenz, AND the debate over the top goalie? I guess we'll see.

Really looking forward to the battle of the 5th spot, I would also currently slot Hull there, but I know that the opinions differ a lot. Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Harvey, Shore, they're all reasonable choices.

 

[overpass]

Since we already have a list that we extensively discussed the first time around, I'll start with a player that I think deserves to be around the bottom of the top 10, and possibly as high as 5th - Dominik Hasek.

Hasek has an absolutely incredible peak, and it's on that basis that I think he could go as high as 5th. We know that he consistently had SV% above 0.930 for several years, but think about what that means in terms of impact to a team. Consider his 1998-99 season, where he had a SV% of 0.937. His backups (Biron and Roloson, who are fine goalies themselves) had a SV% of 0.910. That means that when Hasek was playing, Buffalo opponents scored on 6.3% of their shots. When he wasn't playing, they scored on 9.0% of their shots - an increase of over 40%! How many skaters had that kind of impact in their prime? I think you could count them on one hand.

Hasek's career looks less impressive on first glance, but that's only if you take an NHL-centric view. He was a star in Czechoslovakia as a young man, named the best goalie five times and the best player three times in the best league available to him. When he came to North America, it's true he didn't immediately start - but goalies are notoriously difficult to evaluate by observation, and it didn't help that Mike Keenan was doing the evaluating. When Hasek got the chance to start, he earned his "Dominator" nickname quickly, ripped off six historically dominant years, and was a very good NHL goalie into his forties. Looked at in proper context, that's not a short career at all. In fact, it's very long and accomplished.

Compare him to contemporary Patrick Roy, who has superior NHL career totals to Hasek. Hasek started playing in the top league available to him four years before Roy, and began dominating the league at the same age that Roy entered the NHL. Hasek also retired five years after Roy, and while his later years were a bit hit-or-miss, he had a couple of very good years in there. If not for the fact that Hasek was born behind the Iron Curtain, his NHL totals are probably at least comparable to Roy's. What-ifs aside, if we give credit for play outside the NHL (as the spirit of this project suggests), Hasek's career is not inferior to Roy's.

Hasek's historically great peak and his long, productive career form a profile that merits serious consideration for the top 10. In my opinion, he should be included there.

There's a lot that could be said about the battle for the top few spots, but I won't go into that now. But if you like peak, consider Orr over Gretzky, and if you like a great career, consider Howe over Gretzky.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

To get the discussion going, I'd like to post some relevant excerpts from HO's research about Hart shares (if you wanted to post this yourself or don't want to see it posted here, HO, I'll delete it). It doesn't tell the entire story about every great player, but it's a possible start for a discussion.

The purpose of this essay is to compare Hart trophy winners and finalists across eras by examining to what extent they stood out, relative to their peers.

A “Hart share” is equal to the number of Hart trophy votes a player earned a specific year, divided by the maximum available number of points.

By definition, the highest possible Hart share is 1.00 (meaning that the player won the Hart trophy unanimously) and the lowest possible share is 0.00 (meaning that the player didn’t receive any votes, or received so few that it rounds to zero).

Most career Hart shares

List of fifty players with the largest Hart shares over course of their careers

1 |Wayne Gretzky |9.01 |- Won a stunning five Hart trophies while earning 90%+ of available votes - Won the only unanimous Hart trophy in NHL history (1982) - Finished 5th or higher in Hart voting for twelve straight years (1980-1991)
2 |Gordie Howe |6.05 |- People forget how dominant he was; won as many Harts as Lemieux and Orr combined - As further evidence of dominance, his “peak” Hart value (discussed later) is 4th highest all-time, ahead of Bobby Orr - Finished 5th or higher in Hart voting a staggering fifteen times; that’s a full career’s worth of MVP-calibre seasons - Holds all-time record for most Hart nominations (15 [as discussed in the essay])
3 |Mario Lemieux |4.86 |- Finished in the top five in Hart voting eight times despite playing in 60+ games ten times. Three-quarters of a season from Lemieux is more valuable than a full season from nearly any other player. - Was the last player to win the Hart on a non-playoff team (1988)
5 |D Bobby Orr |3.49 |- In his eight full seasons, never finished lower than 4th in Hart voting - Has the two largest Hart shares for any defenseman (87% in 1970 and 72% in 1971) -Surprisingly, Orr finished behind teammate Esposito three times (1969, 1973, 1974). Is this evidence of a bias against defenseman? [This is discussed in the essay] - Eight times in the top five in Hart voting; he won the Norris each of those years
6 |Bobby Hull |2.93 |- Best year was 1966, when he obtained an 81% Hart share - Nine times in the top five in Hart voting
7 |G Dominik Hasek |2.89 |- Peak is so far ahead of other goalies that it nearly defies comprehension - Hasek had 96% and 92% Hart shares in his two best seasons (1997 and 1998); no other goalie has even an 80% Hart share
8 |Jean Beliveau |2.83 |- In addition to winning twice, was runner-up on four occasions to extremely tough competition: Howe (1957), Hull (1966), Mikita (1968), and Esposito (1969). - Ten times in the top five in Hart voting
12 |Maurice Richard |2.22 |- Like Jagr, he only won one Hart trophy but was close many times (three third-place finishes) - Dominated league in the one year he won (89% share)
15 |Stan Mikita |1.95 |- Won two Hart trophies; the first was a dominant performance (93% share) and the second was the smallest share of any Hart winner (43%), worse than many 2nd place finishes
22 |D Ray Bourque |1.34 |- Second best defenseman in Hart voting, aside from Orr - Runner-up to Gretzky in 1987 and Messier in 1990 (was suspiciously left off six ballots and lost by just two votes) - Bourque vs. Lidstrom is a popular topic these days so it’s worth mentioning that Lidstrom (0.48 career Hart share) ranks just 66th overall on this list - Five times in the top five in Hart voting
33 |G Patrick Roy |0.96 |- A decade separates his two best seasons in terms of Hart voting (runner-up to Messier in 1992 and third behind Theodore and Iginla in 2002) |- Top five in Hart voting four times
40 |D Doug Harvey |0.82 |- Either there was a serious bias against defensemen, or there was vote-splitting between Plante, Beliveau, Richard, etc, because Harvey is far better than the 40th best player (and 4th best defenseman) on this list - Maybe the Hart voters got tired of voting for forwards and decided to recognize the Habs dynasty’s defensive core in 1962 when Plante and Harvey finished 1st/2nd in voting?

(I've added info about Hart nominations for Shore, Morenz and Plante to HO's work. Were they left out because of incomplete voting records or did I skip some important part of your work?)

Hart nominations

Player |First |Second |Third |Fourth |Fifth |Total
Gordie Howe |6 |1 |5 |2 |1 |15
Wayne Gretzky |9 |1 |1 |1 |1 |13
Jean Beliveau |2 |4 |1 |2 |0 |9
Bobby Hull |2 |2 |4 |0 |1 |9
Eddie Shore |4 |1 |2 |0 |1 |8
Mario Lemieux |3 |3 |1 |1 |0 |8
Bobby Orr |3 |0 |4 |1 |0 |8
Dominik Hasek |2 |1 |2 |0 |0 |5
Stan Mikita |2 |1 |0 |1 |1 |5
Maurice Richard |1 |1 |3 |0 |0 |5
Ray Bourque |0 |2 |0 |1 |2 |5
Doug Harvey |0 |1 |1 |0 |3 |5
Howie Morenz |3 |1 |0 |0 |0 |4
Patrick Roy |0 |1 |1 |1 |1 |4
Jacques Plante |1 |0 |0 |0 |1 |2

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Question - Are we ranking our Top 10 or all 15?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

1) Gretzky - Actually did everything Lemieux "could" have done
2) Howe - Lemieux-like domination over his peers + unsurpassed prolonged elite play
3) Orr - Elite two-way play bumps him over Lemiuex
4) Lemieux - Just way too many "woulda, coulda, shouldas" to be any higher
5) Hull - Not that far away
6) Shore - Utterly dominant player of his time
7) Hasek - The most important position in hockey does not get enough credit on these lists, and if it were not for the Iron Curtain and the Sabres, his place as the #1 goalie of all-time would be uncontested
8) Harvey - Not as dominant as Shore offensively, but near perfect defensively
9) Bourque - 13 seasons as a 1st Team All Star (and 6 2nd) is too much to ignore
10) Beliveau - Great guy to round out the top 10

11) Richard - I thought he was severely overrated in the last vote
12) Plante
13) Morenz
14) Mikita
15) Roy

16) Lidstrom

 

[DaveG]

For a guy that had some goalies very highly rated last time I actally may not have any in my first vote this time around. Of course my revision of the list (not the one I sent in, the one I've made since then) would have FIVE in the next round of voting so it kindof evens out in the end.

Right now the top 4 are the top 4 (Orr, Howe, Mario, Wayne)
5: Hull
6: Richard
7: Beliveau
8-10: Harvey, Bourque, Shore

The order on the last 3 is going to be subject to change of course.

 

[FissionFire]

Finally, I guess we'll see how it goes, but is one thread really enough for Gretzky vs. Howe vs. Orr, Beliveau vs. Richard, Harvey vs. Shore vs. Morenz, AND the debate over the top goalie? I guess we'll see.

This is just an update before it shuts down for a few years and starts up a new round of complete discussions with likely new players being discussed. This update is assuming that the voters have reviewed all the discussion threads from the first list so really only new information/arguments need to be presented since re-hashing the same old ones isn't necessary. Feel free to quote parts or old discussion posts or links to relevant threads.

Question - Are we ranking our Top 10 or all 15?

From Post #2:

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

 

[MXD]

Some of it will change since my last submission.

My Top-5, my no.9 and my no.15 are set in stone. The rest is however up to (much) tweakings. Where to insert the three goalies will probably be my main dilemna, though I know the order in which I'll insert them.

 

[seventieslord]

^^^ That's what she said!

All I know for sure is who I'll have in 4th and 5th.

Gretzky/Orr/Howe are a toss-up. Lemieux and Hull are 4th/5th.

I have Beliveau, Harvey, Bourque and Shore all above Richard, but in what order? The only thing I'm mostly certain about there is that Bourque should be the #4 defenseman. And even that is subject to change.

Then in 10th-13th you have Richard and the three goalies. Is Richard better? These guys were all amazingly good for a very long time. If they're better than Richard, do they poke into the next four at all, or sit at the bottom? And am I prepared to publicly say once again that I don't have Richard in my top-10?

After that we have Morenz and Mikita, who, as awesome as they are, I just can't see higher than 14th and 15th.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

1-4 Orr, Howe, Lemieux, Gretzky

5-6 Richard, Hull

7 Shore

8-10 Harvey, Hasek, Beliveau

11-13 Bourque, Roy, Morenz

14-15 Plante, Mikita

Ddin't have Plante or Mikita in my top 15.

But only the top 4 are an untouchable group. I could be easily swayed.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Good to see it starting up again.

I won't be that involved in the discussion this time. Feel free to copy my arguments from the last time, particularly when it pertains to GBC favourites like Terrible Ted Lindsay, Bobby Clarke, Red Kelly, "Magic" Max Bentley and Syl Apps. But it's summer time, my focus is on my baseball pool, my golf game, summer sports, and my trip back to the coast in August.

Happy debating, boys. Hopefully I'll get my votes in.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Great to see this up and running once again...

 

[MXD]

I'd really, really like to explain my reasoning for Doug Harvey 5th : however, I can't really word it. Besides, it's basically the last sunny evening (see non-rainy evening) in Ottowa (the 2nd o is very important), so I'm leaving for the night. Gotta find a way to write down my argument before sunday night.

 

[canucks4ever]

top 10

1.gretzky
2.howe
3.orr
4.lemieux
5.shore
6.bourque
7.hull
8.beliveau
9.harvey
10.roy

How plante made top 10 last time is beyond me, he's not better than either Roy Hasek or Bourque.

 

[Dark Shadows]

#1 Gretzky
#2 Orr
#3 Howe
#4 Lemieux
#5 Hull
#6 Harvey
#7 Shore
#8 Beliveau
#9 Richard
#10 Plante

Last time, the Goalie Debate started between 11-15 since no goalie made the top 10. Was a good debate too. Changed my perspective on things. I continually flip flop between Plante, Hasek and Roy now, but as with last time, I am determined to have 1 goalie in my top 10.

My list has changed quite a bit even since submitting the last one to you FF.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

(I've added info about Hart nominations for Shore, Morenz and Plante to HO's work. Were they left out because of incomplete voting records or did I skip some important part of your work?)

The chart only goes back to 1947, because that's the last year that I could find full voting results on a regular basis. (Prior to 1947 you either get only the top five, or full voting results for a few nonconsecutive years).

- Shore & Morenz: retired before 1947 thus they're not in my chart. The historical average shares for finishing 1st through 5th are 0.76, 0.44, 0.26, 0.16 and 0.10 (ie an average Hart trophy winner captures 76% of the maximum possible votes). If we apply these numbers to their career placements, we'd get a score of 4.10 for Shore (4th place all-time!) and 2.72 for Morenz (11th place). Obviously these are just rough estimates but it shows how well-regarded these players were while they were active.
- Plante: he earned virtually zero Hart votes during his career (with the obvious exception of 1962, when Plante actually won the Hart). Aside from that, he finished 5th in 1971, and received a single 3rd place vote in 1964, and that's it. Part of this is likely era based as Sawchuk and Hall also received virtually no votes, as well. This might also be team-based -- Plante didn't earn any votes during the Habs' dynasty years even though he was obviously a key part of that team. Vote-splitting among teammates is likely.

Will add some thoughts on Shore vs Harvey soon -- I disagree with the apparent consensus that Shore was better.

 

[MS]

Bah, did I miss being a part of this again? Crap.

In any case, agree with the comments above by overpass re: Hasek. What he did from 1993-1999 was to goaltending the equivalent of what Gretzky did as a forward or Orr as a defender, or damn close to it. To be posting a .930+ save % when the rest of the league's elite goalies are down around .915 is just mindboggling. Best goaltender of all time, best stretch of seasons by any goalie in history. I have no problem ranking him as the #5-7 player of all time.

 

[foame]

Great to see this started!

Bah, did I miss being a part of this again? Crap.

In any case, agree with the comments above by overpass re: Hasek. What he did from 1993-1999 was to goaltending the equivalent of what Gretzky did as a forward or Orr as a defender, or damn close to it. To be posting a .930+ save % when the rest of the league's elite goalies are down around .915 is just mindboggling. Best goaltender of all time, best stretch of seasons by any goalie in history. I have no problem ranking him as the #5-7 player of all time.

You can still join:

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.