"Rotten Core"
- Thread starter HannuJ
- Start date
GJF
Beaver Jedi
King Woodballs
Captain Awesome
I read the article this morning and yeah, serious pitchfork leaning. But that's what the media does...circle for blood.
That's also the other thing the media does: ignore many other factors. Just present a worst-case scenario without looking at other factors and run with it. It's pretty easy to tear that article to shreds. Not much objectivity in it really at all. Roller coaster is not only going down, it's got a broken track ahead too if you trust the Sun.
That's also the other thing the media does: ignore many other factors. Just present a worst-case scenario without looking at other factors and run with it. It's pretty easy to tear that article to shreds. Not much objectivity in it really at all. Roller coaster is not only going down, it's got a broken track ahead too if you trust the Sun.
Guerzy
I'm a fricken baby
- Jan 16, 2005
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Lawless is on the same road with his article today,
If Noel axed, he shouldn't go alone... leaders share the blame
I surely think the players deserve a lot of the blame here, as does Noel, but with that being said, I also think I am seeing a lot of underrating exactly what a coaching change can do. Sorry, but I don't think this team is THAT bad. A new coach can indeed bring in a completely different system, mindset, feeling to the room, opportunity, etc. Would it work? maybe, maybe not, but there is only one way to find out and at some point you gotta start somewhere. What we've been doing since October 2011 clearly isn't and has not worked since day 1. Claude Noel + this group, for whatever reason has never meshed, and they never will in my opinion.
If a coach and core group of players don't mesh, for whatever reason(s), well, then they don't mesh. You get to a point where we are now, at a crossroads. The coach is looking terrible and it's becoming all to obvious a change will need to be made. Core players in Ladd, Wheeler, Little and Kane are also looking quite bad, and now we're saying "if the coach goes, so does one of these guys". I don't buy that, not with those players, not yet. All are worthy NHL'ers, in my opinion, and I still believe we can see better days with these players than without. I would hate to see any one of them moved because of this situation. Maybe one day they will need to be if certain other organizational moves don't propel this team to better days, but as of right now I would not move these players. Maybe it's just me, but for whatever reason I still believe in them.
If Noel axed, he shouldn't go alone... leaders share the blame
I surely think the players deserve a lot of the blame here, as does Noel, but with that being said, I also think I am seeing a lot of underrating exactly what a coaching change can do. Sorry, but I don't think this team is THAT bad. A new coach can indeed bring in a completely different system, mindset, feeling to the room, opportunity, etc. Would it work? maybe, maybe not, but there is only one way to find out and at some point you gotta start somewhere. What we've been doing since October 2011 clearly isn't and has not worked since day 1. Claude Noel + this group, for whatever reason has never meshed, and they never will in my opinion.
If a coach and core group of players don't mesh, for whatever reason(s), well, then they don't mesh. You get to a point where we are now, at a crossroads. The coach is looking terrible and it's becoming all to obvious a change will need to be made. Core players in Ladd, Wheeler, Little and Kane are also looking quite bad, and now we're saying "if the coach goes, so does one of these guys". I don't buy that, not with those players, not yet. All are worthy NHL'ers, in my opinion, and I still believe we can see better days with these players than without. I would hate to see any one of them moved because of this situation. Maybe one day they will need to be if certain other organizational moves don't propel this team to better days, but as of right now I would not move these players. Maybe it's just me, but for whatever reason I still believe in them.
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I can get behind Lawless' argument that if Noel is shown the door, moving a key piece would also be a smart move, simply to shake up the roster and leadership core when bringing in a new coach.
Not sure either are going to happen in the short term though.
Not sure either are going to happen in the short term though.
Guerzy
I'm a fricken baby
- Jan 16, 2005
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Agree. I have long said I believe Noel needs to go, as does Byfuglien. With that being said, I would not trade Ladd, Little, Wheeler or Kane. At least not yet. Those aren't the guys I'd be moving at this point in time. Unless of course the deal is fantastic for Winnipeg, I'll trade anybody. But, speaking in context here, I'd start with Noel and Byfuglien.
If it's going to happen, I agree with Noel and Byfuglien. As much as Buff is exciting, and I enjoy watching him, and his skillset is unique and top end, there's something about his game that "leaks" into the play style of the whole team, I find.
It'll be an interesting few months coming up - Chevy's got some work to do, one way or another.
Romang67
BitterSwede
IMO, it's idiotic to say that if Noel is fired, some of the players have to go at the same time. Why wouldn't we wait and see if another coach can do better with the same players before we trade away assets?
I understand Lawless loves Noel and think he can do no wrong, but that is just completely missing a lot of the point of a coaching change...
P.S. Obviously a bit hyperbolic, but I don't think anyone can argue that Lawless has taken Noel's side on things time and time again, and has critiqued the management as a whole a lot less than the players.
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Rotten core you say? Pavelec not a real #1 you say? Who has been saying these things for 2 years now.... Hmmmmm....
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
Weird argument from some that Noel should simply be fired ex any player changes sans maybe Byfuglien.
Firing him still leaves you with a group of players that simply haven't done their jobs this season. That group includes many of the core and bit players as well. Byfuglien certainly hasn't been their only terrible player this season. What does it say about the character of some of those players that have supposedly quit on their coach - if the Sun article is true? If they had concerns about the coach then they should be expressed to the GM in private, not by half-assing it on the ice. If they are indeed not putting out enough effort in an attempt to have the coach fired then some of them are quitters, period, are professional men being paid to do a job and not doing it. Firing the coach now simply enables a group of quitters by extension.
I don't buy into the they quit on the coach theory though. Their record to-date tells us the roster sucks to begin with and isn't good enough to get the job done regardless of who is the figurehead in charge.
Firing him still leaves you with a group of players that simply haven't done their jobs this season. That group includes many of the core and bit players as well. Byfuglien certainly hasn't been their only terrible player this season. What does it say about the character of some of those players that have supposedly quit on their coach - if the Sun article is true? If they had concerns about the coach then they should be expressed to the GM in private, not by half-assing it on the ice. If they are indeed not putting out enough effort in an attempt to have the coach fired then some of them are quitters, period, are professional men being paid to do a job and not doing it. Firing the coach now simply enables a group of quitters by extension.
I don't buy into the they quit on the coach theory though. Their record to-date tells us the roster sucks to begin with and isn't good enough to get the job done regardless of who is the figurehead in charge.
Thats what a new coach does. You clean the slate and everyone gets that fresh start. Easier to fire the coach than to replace 20 players as they say. Look at Philly, they fired Laviolette and they are doing really good right now. Cooper in TB is doing well. Roy in Colorado. Sure not all coaching changes work because there might be deeper issues or you just didn't hire the right guy with the right message and right system.
Guerzy
I'm a fricken baby
- Jan 16, 2005
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I completely agree with you, Gump. But I think at the end of the day, that's just the lay of the land in sports, or the NHL. Players may quit on the coach, maybe they lose faith in him, perhaps the relationship is simply not a fit, it happens. Players are human, this has been a long, drawn out process of no success since the relocation, the players know that, Noel knows that, the fans know that, etc. Watching player interviews now after a loss is just painful, same goes for watching Noel in a post-game presser.
And as I said, I would move any player for the right deal, but, I do like certain players such as Ladd, Little, Wheeler and Kane. It's just my opinion but I think we can win with these players included. I also think teams would be lining up at Chevy's door step to acquire their services. I'd like to see them under the guidance of a new coach, with some tinkering to the roster, of course.
You bring quality points to the discussion in saying,
"Firing him still leaves you with a group of players that simply haven't done their jobs this season. That group includes many of the core and bit players as well. Byfuglien certainly hasn't been their only terrible player this season. What does it say about the character of some of those players that have supposedly quit on their coach - if the Sun article is true?"
... and I think you are bang on. But let's remember this is sports, hockey, the NHL. Wouldn't be the first time a group of players simply couldn't endure success with one coach, yet made significant improvements under another; even if they were quitters on the prior coach.
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
Nope. In this case firing the coach simply enables a bunch of losers. A coaching change is cosmetic. A new coach isn't going to turn a bunch of players better served to be playing in the East suddenly into a bunch of conscientious guys able to focus on the details (read as suited to play in the West). Their problems are structural in nature, not cosmetic. The team sucks, the roster isn't good enough relative to their competition in the West, period. It is a roster comprised of questionable goal-tending backed by a weak defense and not enough forwards.
Stick out the season with Noel and make these players wear their record. They are what they are. That is on the GM, not the coach.
Stick out the season with Noel and make these players wear their record. They are what they are. That is on the GM, not the coach.
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cbcwpg
Registered User
Actually sucking like we are lately can be a good thing for this team in the long term.
When a team is winning everybody playing on the team is all
, and certain personalities on the team get a free pass because you are winning. But when you start to slide, the GM really gets to find out about the people that he has on this team and coaching this team. Not just their skill levels, but what they are really like when the going gets tough.
Right now Chevy is sitting there putting a bunch of red "X" marks besides some players on this team because they are quitters when things get bad, and he will be looking at shipping them out. The coach also is getting evaluated.
When a team is winning everybody playing on the team is all
, and certain personalities on the team get a free pass because you are winning. But when you start to slide, the GM really gets to find out about the people that he has on this team and coaching this team. Not just their skill levels, but what they are really like when the going gets tough.Right now Chevy is sitting there putting a bunch of red "X" marks besides some players on this team because they are quitters when things get bad, and he will be looking at shipping them out. The coach also is getting evaluated.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to change Noel now since I'm on team tank. I'm just saying in the offseason, I think it will rejuvenate the players knowing there is a new voice and direction. You ever go into work and you got this ahole boss and you don't like him? And then a new boss comes in and its like a cloud is lifted over your head and your attitude changes.
Guerzy
I'm a fricken baby
- Jan 16, 2005
- 39,854
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... ... ... "in your opinion". Unless of course you've got the ability to hit fast-forward and watch it all play out before the rest of us? Impossible for you to sit there and say what you just did, as if it is fact.
Truth is Gump you have zero clue, neither do I, neither does Chevy --- at this point. Fact is, at some point a change needs to be made given what isn't working right now and hasn't worked since October 2011. It may come in the form of a player trade or trades, it may be the coach, and when a change is made we will see the outcome and results of that change in due time. Until then, we really haven't a clue what is going to work, or not work. And it is very difficult for us to sit here on our keyboards and say "this is the problem", as you just did. We do not know.
We've seen coaching changes bring team success with the same roster, we've also seen the opposite. We've seen player trades bring success, we've also seen the opposite. Truth is, it's a gamble, you don't know until you try. It's really a game of moving parts, trial and error, decisions, moves followed by assessment.
I will still say I think this roster is closer to better days than it is further away. Just my opinion, of course.
cheswick
Non-registered User
And the Canucks, Rangers and Oilers changed their coaches in the off season and have worse records this season thus far.
So I guess we learn that changing a coach may or may not improve the team.
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
Did any of those teams have a starting goalie that allows at least one weak goal per game on average? How many of those teams iced the weird mix of D that is on display here every game? How many of those teams have virtually nothing in their bottom six forward group?
Your comment ignores the extenuating circumstance of the Jets weak-ass roster.
Prot
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2011
- 773
- 1
For me the point of changing the coach is NOT to 'enable losers' instead it is the opposite: To hold them accountable.
I never expect a coaching change to bring a cup to our front door, but when I've watched 3 years of the very same mistakes that you just can't make on this team... enough is enough. Bottom line: repeating the same mistakes, expecting different results is insanity.
I never expect a coaching change to bring a cup to our front door, but when I've watched 3 years of the very same mistakes that you just can't make on this team... enough is enough. Bottom line: repeating the same mistakes, expecting different results is insanity.
King Woodballs
Captain Awesome
I agree, there needs to be more accountability.
Problem I see is who replaces a benched Byfuglien, Ladd, Little.... etc etc etc.
We all complain this team doesn't have enough talent and enough depth.
So what is the coach supposed to do?
There needs to be more accountability between the players.
One of the so called leaders needs to stand up and start pointing fingers.
