Confirmed with Link: Roster Cuts Thread - Etem waived (claimed by ANA)

[The Stig]

Unless you can prove that posters are contradicting themselves then well...you're complaining about HFNucks just to complain about HFNucks.

Reading the last few pages, posters are split. Happy Etem is gone, and don't care Benning waived him. Then there are others who liked Etem, and think he was a good asset, therefore the bleeding assets comments.

Kinda different then having an entire board complain and contradict themselves.

You're right. I apologize.

 

[biturbo19]

During pre season on HFVan:
"Etem is a bust. He sucks. Get him out of here:

Etem gets claimed:
"OMFG BENNING BLEEDING ASSETS AGAIN SMFHAAJAHDUANKJ".

HfVan gunna HFVan.

It's pretty much a no-win minefield i guess. Seems reasonable.

 

[Tim McCracken]

It's pretty much a no-win minefield i guess. Seems reasonable.

Well Benning did piss away another pick for what amounted to half a season of Etem. Can't like that. Too bad for Etem, I thought he might "get it" finally but good for Skille.

 

[The Stig]

Well Benning did piss away another pick for what amounted to half a season of Etem. Can't like that. Too bad for Etem, I thought he might "get it" finally but good for Skille.

Not like a 6th rounder was going to become anything. It was a better gamble to take a shot at a guy who had a chance to put things together, than to pick in the 6th round.

 

[Beansy*]

Not like a 6th rounder was going to become anything. It was a better gamble to take a shot at a guy who had a chance to put things together, than to pick in the 6th round.

Precisely. We all know the extremely high likelihood that the 6th round pick will be an impact player.

 

[Tim McCracken]

Not like a 6th rounder was going to become anything. It was a better gamble to take a shot at a guy who had a chance to put things together, than to pick in the 6th round.

True enough but Benning has actually made some intriguing picks in the 5th through 7th rounds and I'd rather have another one of those than half of a nothing season of Etem.

Plus I'm tired of him always throwing picks into deals.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Not like a 6th rounder was going to become anything. It was a better gamble to take a shot at a guy who had a chance to put things together, than to pick in the 6th round.

Sure. In isolation it's fine. But Benning has a history and tendency to hemorrhage draft picks with everything he does.

It's also why I laugh and seriously can't understand when people claim this team is rebuilding. Rebuilding teams don't trade away youth and draft picks!!!

 

[biturbo19]

Not like a 6th rounder was going to become anything. It was a better gamble to take a shot at a guy who had a chance to put things together, than to pick in the 6th round.

You never know. You can't just completely write off 6th round picks like that. But the odds are extremely low. A 6th/7th round pick is of completely negligible value. You're lucky if you get half a season in the NHL out of one.

But it's not like Etem was some pointless no-hoper waste of a 6th round pick. It was a flyer on a guy who under our current coach, was a WHL scoring star and selected as a 1st round talent. It was a flyer on unearthing something more. And there was some small sign of improvement at least.

But 6th round picks are flyers, longshots, major projects. Etem was no different. It was just on an accelerated "Fail Fast" timeline.

 

[The Stig]

Sure. In isolation it's fine. But Benning has a history and tendency to hemorrhage draft picks with everything he does.

It's also why I laugh and seriously can't understand when people claim this team is rebuilding. Rebuilding teams don't trade away youth and draft picks!!!

Why are you yelling? They do when it's trading a stab in the dark pick for a young player they hoped had some upside.

 

[Get North]

Emerson Etem is a dime a dozen player. You can find a similar player in free agency. Etem was fighting for a spot in pre-season and stunk, got waived like he deserved, and unfortunate he got claimed. Not a big deal. Jared Cowen is in free agency, Dylan Olsen... We could have claimed Andrighetto, McNeill, etc.

Since we care so much about waiver fodder Etem, let's watch him shift to shift, didn't play yesterday, check back tomorrow against the Penguins!

 

[JuniorNelson]

Etem>>>Burrows.

 

[Bougieman]

Etem>>>Burrows.

Nope. Burrows can effectively kill penalties. What was Etem good at? What did he bring to the team?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Skille outplayed Etem. And was a better NHL player than Etem last season.

Disagree with the second sentence. I do not think Skille was a better player than Etem last year.

Age simply doesn't matter with this sort of fringe asset. People convince themselves that it does, but it doesn't. This sort of junky fringe bottom-tier player only ever lasts 1-2 years in any organization, and it doesn't matter if they're 24 or 34. Take the better player to fill out depth.

Age does matter if they are essentially the same asset. It can be the only difference. And if the common refrain around here is that there is still potential in a player at age 24, as it is being put forth for Gudbranson, then the same should be applied here for Etem.

Skille is not appreciably/significantly better. They are both "fringe assets", as you say.

The contention is that if Etem and Skille are relatively the same asset, why not salvage the one that has age on his side? 5 years should buy him that thin edge in the decision, preseason or not.

 

[Bleach Clean]

A few replies.

1. Established veterans don't lose their job during the preseason. And like Dorsett or not, he is an established veteran whose job was not in jeopardy.

2. Stecher is a prospect and with prospects you're also trying to do what's best for the prospect's development. Heck, last season McCann made the team on merit but many posters here feel that he should have been sent down for his development's sake.

3. If we are to weigh regular season games only, Skille has been a better 4th line player than Etem. Skille may be dime a dozen but he's been a solid 4th line player in the NHL for the past few years. The same can't be said of Etem who if he's not scoring isn't deemed good enough for the NHL.

4. But it wasn't close was it? You know what you're going to get with Skille. He's not going to score a whole lot but he's a solid 4th line player in the NHL. Etem has the higher offensive upside, but we're still talking about upside. The thing is Etem's floor isn't Skille. It's the AHL. His NHL future when he's not scoring is highly questionable.

It sucks to lose Etem, but I have serious doubts that the Ducks will keep him for the whole year. The chances are Etem will be placed on waivers and the Canucks can claim him back.

Answers:

1. Then it's not a meritocracy. If it's purely on merit, then Dorsett should not be here.

2. That's fine. If the understanding is that certain situations override merit, then it's understandable to have Stecher sent down.

3. Etem has a better PPG rate over games played compared to Skille. How are you establishing that Skille is the better player, significantly?

4. They are both fringe assets, preseason performance withstanding. Unless you are going to show that Skille is significantly better than Etem, your point is moot.

That the preseason gets this much weight in long-term decision making is asinine.

Etem only played 30 games for this team. Think about that. They saw something in this player, actively pursued him and didn't wait for him to hit waivers, then after 30 games pulled the plug. What type of Pro Scouting is this?

Doesn't matter what the Ducks do. We are talking about the decisions Benning is making.

 

[biturbo19]

Disagree with the second sentence. I do not think Skille was a better player than Etem last year.

That's certainly your prerogative...but i'd agree with MS there. Skille was the better player, in his role...than Etem last year. Etem simply had the advantage of being moved up the roster in an extended audition scenario because the season was forfeit to flatter his results a bit. As a 4th line winger though, i'd have taken Skille easily last year over Etem's work in that spot.

Age does matter if they are essentially the same asset. It can be the only difference. And if the common refrain around here is that there is still potential in a player at age 24, as it is being put forth for Gudbranson, then the same should be applied here for Etem.

There's a clear difference when we're talking room for improvement in a guy like Gudbranson who took significant steps through the second half of last year and has begun to establish himself as a quality shutdownTop-4D. A significant "impact player". A 20+ minute a night player. Vs a guy like Etem who made some progress, but was still nipping at the fringes of an NHL starting roster as a starting 12F.

Things aren't just black and white universal blanket statements like you seem to want here. Context matters. Where a guy is trending, how far up the roster they've already climbed, the sort of improvement necessary for them to become a fixture. You're trying to apply the same rubric to an NHL Top-4 Defenceman, and a fringe 12/13th NHL Winger. That's obtuse.

Skille is not appreciably/significantly better. They are both "fringe assets", as you say.

The contention is that if Etem and Skille are relatively the same asset, why not salvage the one that has age on his side? 5 years should buy him that thin edge in the decision, preseason or not.

Like MS originally said, age is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to fringe Journeyman assets who spend their career jumping from team to team. They float around and rarely stay anywhere for more than a couple years. There is no "long-term future" with fringe assets and 12th Forward winger types once they reach waiver eligible status.

Having very young fringe NHLers and ELC minor league depth who can play there but remain stashed in the AHL/waiver exempt, that has some value. Guys who can establish themselves as more than a journeyman - ie Capable Top-9 Forwards, or even a terrific 4th line Center...that can have value. But a 12th/13th Forward Winger isn't, and shouldn't be a difficult thing to bring in for free from wherever in this day and age.

Gillis often made it look extremely hard for some reason...but Benning has consistently brought in a guy like that off the street on near minimum deals. Cracknell, now Skille. That shouldn't be difficult. There's no real "value" in these guys, and their age doesn't matter because they're not going to be around for more than a year or two...they're just important, good guys to have for that year or two.



Etem at 24 may still have a bit of room to improve. But at that age, it's unlikely there's going to be major improvement still to come...especially when his trajectory has been a very slight incline at best over the last couple years. Within scope of his current state...you're talking an improvement that maybe takes him from marginal 12th Forward to...decent 11th Forward. Both, highly replaceable assets.


Whereas Gudbranson, he's already in my estimation a Top-4D...but even if you're wishy-washy on that still...with a pretty significant upward trend over the last year, ie. still improving. And from there...he's already a massively more important player, and improvement in the scope of his place as a player is likely to come in the form of either further solidifying his place a surefire Top-4D, or at most...maybe pushing him into Top-3D territory where he becomes a guy capable of carrying a 2nd pairing.

 

[biturbo19]

Answers:

1. Then it's not a meritocracy. If it's purely on merit, then Dorsett should not be here.

2. That's fine. If the understanding is that certain situations override merit, then it's understandable to have Stecher sent down.

3. Etem has a better PPG rate over games played compared to Skille. How are you establishing that Skille is the better player, significantly?

4. They are both fringe assets, preseason performance withstanding. Unless you are going to show that Skille is significantly better than Etem, your point is moot.

That the preseason gets this much weight in long-term decision making is asinine.

Etem only played 30 games for this team. Think about that. They saw something in this player, actively pursued him and didn't wait for him to hit waivers, then after 30 games pulled the plug. What type of Pro Scouting is this?

Doesn't matter what the Ducks do. We are talking about the decisions Benning is making.

The thing is, with point #1 you seem to want a hard and fast, black and white, concrete absolute rule for things.

That's not how it works.

#2 is closer to the reality of how things work here. Though in actuality, i think you've got it twisted. It's not that "some situations override merit". It's that "merit" isn't solely defined by a half dozen preseason games. It's far more complicated and far more comprehensive than that.


Assembling a team isn't like building with Lego where all the pieces are what they are and they all fit together uniformly and interchangeably.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The thing is, with point #1 you seem to want a hard and fast, black and white, concrete absolute rule for things.

That's not how it works.

I'm analyzing what the team is doing and saying. When Skille gets signed and Etem waived, it's touted as a merit based change. However, when Stecher gets sent down, even though he clearly outplayed most of his competition, then that's "asset management". But then where did that go for Etem? How are they managing the asset they have in Horvat? Did they manage Hamhuis well in your opinion? Etc... It's a farce.

#2 is closer to the reality of how things work here. Though in actuality, i think you've got it twisted. It's not that "some situations override merit". It's that "merit" isn't solely defined by a half dozen preseason games. It's far more complicated and far more comprehensive than that.

Excellent, then if it's not solely defined by the preseason, why did Etem lose his job based on Skille's preseason play? Why did Corrado get waived? Granlund get bumped up over Horvat? Etc...

Assembling a team isn't like building with Lego where all the pieces are what they are and they all fit together uniformly and interchangeably.

Biturbo19, you have a tendency to complicate an otherwise simple situation:

When Virtanen makes the team, it's not due to merit. Everyone knows it. When Skille makes the team, it's due to merit (That's what is said publicly as well).

When Stecher gets sent down, it's not due to merit. When Granlund takes Horvat's spot, it's due to merit (preseason play).

There's nothing complicated about identifying _why_ a specific change is made. Sometimes management even offers up an answer! By saying "it's complicated" you aren't really saying anything at all. (Of course many factors go into making a key decision, but generally we can judge why a certain player made the team and why another did not. Generally)

 

[biturbo19]

I'm analyzing what the team is doing and saying. When Skille gets signed and Etem waived, it's touted as a merit based change. However, when Stecher gets sent down, even though he clearly outplayed most of his competition, then that's "asset management". But then where did that go for Etem? How are they managing the asset they have in Horvat? Did they manage Hamhuis well in your opinion? Etc... It's a farce.





Excellent, then if it's not solely defined by the preseason, why did Etem lose his job based on Skille's preseason play? Why did Corrado get waived? Granlund get bumped up over Horvat? Etc...





Biturbo19, you have a tendency to complicate an otherwise simple situation:

When Virtanen makes the team, it's not due to merit. Everyone knows it. When Skille makes the team, it's due to merit (That's what is said publicly as well).

When Stecher gets sent down, it's not due to merit. When Granlund takes Horvat's spot, it's due to merit (preseason play).

There's nothing complicated about identifying _why_ a specific change is made. Sometimes management even offers up an answer! By saying "it's complicated" you aren't really saying anything at all. (Of course many factors go into making a key decision, but generally we can judge why a certain player made the team and why another did not. Generally)

Congrats, you've stumbled on the magic answer.

"It's complicated".


There are a multitude of factors that go into decisions. It's not just, "this guy outplayed the other in camp". It's what their track record is, it's what their standing in the organization is, it's what it might mean for asset management and what assets are and are not difficult to replace. It's about building a locker room that works smoothly in addition to building a roster that fits together well on the ice. It's about PR and potential upside. It's about handling human beings, tip-toeing around egos and expectations. It's about countering what your competitors might be doing.


Situations are complicated and unique. Each is its own case. Much as you may seem to hate that, it's not "making things more complicated than they need to be". It's discussing things freely in all the degree of complication each instance inevitably brings.

I'm not complicating a simple situation. You're desperately seeking to simplify any number of complicated situations into a rigid formula.

 

[Canucker]

Benning said he tried to move Etem but there was no interest, so his value as an asset was negligible. If he performed poorly in camp, performed so-so/poor last season and hasn't really shown much thus far in his entire NHL career then this isn't a big deal in waiving Etem and losing him, its more a sign of poor pro scouting or just a bad gamble on a guy WD used to coach. Either way it's not a big deal, but it is another of the thousand cuts that will eventually kill us.

 

[TraderJim]

...but it is another of the thousand cuts that will eventually kill us.

By the end of this season our stitch man will be dead from exhaustion.

 

[Pavel96]

At least they are consistent - consistently wasting draft picks. This guy didn't even last a year with us and it's not even like he was injured.

If it's no big deal to lose him then why did we give up a pick, less than a year ago for him. How is this not considered taking a shortcut. Such a flaming pile of garbage. Such a joke.

 

[JanBulisPiggyBack]

I'm all good with Etem being waived ( and coincidedly claimed ) to make room for Skille

A guy who worked his butt off and will continue to play for his career > a guy who gives 50%

I want a team full of guys that will "chew through rope"

 

[krutovsdonut]

You never know. You can't just completely write off 6th round picks like that. But the odds are extremely low. A 6th/7th round pick is of completely negligible value. You're lucky if you get half a season in the NHL out of one.

But it's not like Etem was some pointless no-hoper waste of a 6th round pick. It was a flyer on a guy who under our current coach, was a WHL scoring star and selected as a 1st round talent. It was a flyer on unearthing something more. And there was some small sign of improvement at least.

But 6th round picks are flyers, longshots, major projects. Etem was no different. It was just on an accelerated "Fail Fast" timeline.

well put. this guy has ability well beyond a 6th rounder but had failed to put it together and was trending negative. we took a chance that a change of scenery / coach reunion would unlock his game. that chance was of roughly equal value to a 6th rounder and we found out much more quickly what we got. the latter part is actually a feature, not a bug, when you are trying to rebuild a team.

one other issue is that you can't let these experiments hurt the team. keeping a guy not pulling his weight hurts the team in the standings and the locker room. so you have a relatively short window with these kind of guys before the welcome mat is worn out. etem may still turn it around but that doesn't mean we should have kept him. look at kassian as the prime example of somebody who seems to finally possibly be settling down, but who absolutely had to be ditched by his previous three teams to get there.

 

[nuckfan insk]

So rangers win the the deal ? Get a pick and good ahl scorer, we got nothing lol

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

You're right. I apologize.

Too, the people complaining about bleeding assets aren't talking about Etem. The asset that was bled was the 6th round pick that was wasted to play Etem 12 games.

And yes, a 6th round pick isn't much. Just another paper cut.