Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV: Mod Warning post #557

[Gardner McKay]

Best pun I can think of. Continue.

Click to read more...

 

[Thirty One]

Best pun I can think of. Continue.

Grumble grumble

 

[Tawnos]

Somebody explain to me why trading Nash, and retaining on him, for Sami Vatanen, is a good deal.

I don't see it.

I don't see it as being a straight up, but I do see it as a good deal where those are the two main pieces.

Vatanen, even though I agree he is overrated around here, WOULD improve our defense significantly. He's only 25. He's not a particularly expensive contract for a few years down the road.

To me, I would look at a Nash retained + 2nd for Vatanen + 1st + 3rd. That kind of thing.

We can't look at it as Nash > Vatanen only. In the context of a team, trading an aging 1st line winger (a position which, btw, holds the least value of any position) for a young top-4 RHD (which holds the most or second most value) is a move you make in the Rangers current situation.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Grumble grumble

We had some good ones for Trouba early on. I figured the new target might as well be Shattenkirk.

 

[Tawnos]

We had some good ones for Trouba early on. I figured the new target might as well be Shattenkirk.

Rangers indulge in Shattenfreude (or Rangers fans...)

 

[offdacrossbar]

vatanen is being misused this season. any ducks fan will tell you that.

hes not a defensive guy, in fact, too be honest, his defense is pretty weak at times but hes a 25 yr old RHD with wheels, hands and a good accurate shot. hes a shooter and would look nice on our right side.

hes a pp guy and something this team sorely lacks. a PMD who can play the right side.

he is a very good offensive dman who's + 26 for his career and is a @ .5 ppg player.

13 ppg and 42 ppa the last 2.5 seasons too. hes pretty much what we need on this roster.

shatty is older and will demand an enormous deal.

of the 2 players, i prefer the finn who's younger and will be less painful acquire.

 

[silverfish]

I don't see it as being a straight up, but I do see it as a good deal where those are the two main pieces.

Vatanen, even though I agree he is overrated around here, WOULD improve our defense significantly. He's only 25. He's not a particularly expensive contract for a few years down the road.

To me, I would look at a Nash retained + 2nd for Vatanen + 1st + 3rd. That kind of thing.

We can't look at it as Nash > Vatanen only. In the context of a team, trading an aging 1st line winger (a position which, btw, holds the least value of any position) for a young top-4 RHD (which holds the most or second most value) is a move you make in the Rangers current situation.

There are a ton of d-men who would improve our defense significantly.

Vatanen doesn't really do anything to help this team with its real problems, and that's the volume of shots they give up. He'd add to that problem.

He's not worth Nash, even in a bigger deal.

 

[Tawnos]

There are a ton of d-men who would improve our defense significantly.

Vatanen doesn't really do anything to help this team with its real problems, and that's the volume of shots they give up. He'd add to that problem.

He's not worth Nash, even in a bigger deal.

How many of those Dmen are on a team that's likely to want to move a D for a forward?

 

[offdacrossbar]

There are a ton of d-men who would improve our defense significantly.

Vatanen doesn't really do anything to help this team with its real problems, and that's the volume of shots they give up. He'd add to that problem.

He's not worth Nash, even in a bigger deal.

hes not the answer to making us substantially better defensively (like playing girardi less)

however, he does

improve the pp by removing mcd and adding sami to the point
improve our ability to move pucks from our own zone (which we suck at)
improve our passing from the blue line and thus our ability to beat traps(see above)
improve immediately the overall skill on our blue line

hes not the slug you are making him out to be.

plus hes alot cheaper than would be shattenkirk.

 

[silverfish]

How many of those Dmen are on a team that's likely to want to move a D for a forward?

I have no idea. And it's great that ANA would trade a D for a forward, but that doesn't convince me that this is the right move.

hes not the answer to making us substantially better defensively (like playing girardi less)

however, he does

improve the pp by removing mcd and adding sami to the point
improve our ability to move pucks from our own zone (which we suck at)
improve our passing from the blue line and thus our ability to beat traps(see above)
improve immediately the overall skill on our blue line

hes not the slug you are making him out to be.

plus hes alot cheaper than would be shattenkirk.

I will not engage you until you answer my post in the goaltending thread where by using your logic in evaluating defense, you anoint Dylan McIlrath as the Rangers best d-man last year because he gave up the least goals.

 

[Tawnos]

hes not the answer to making us substantially better defensively (like playing girardi less)

however, he does

improve the pp by removing mcd and adding sami to the point
improve our ability to move pucks from our own zone (which we suck at)
improve our passing from the blue line and thus our ability to beat traps(see above)
improve immediately the overall skill on our blue line

hes not the slug you are making him out to be.

He's a legitimate 2nd pairing D, which is what 1st line wingers are nominally worth these days.

 

[Tawnos]

I have no idea. And it's great that ANA would trade a D for a forward, but that doesn't convince me that this is the right move.

I would also keep in mind that defensemen typically improve during the exact stretch that Vatanen is under contract for.

I know you would prefer a better defenseman than Vatanen as the centerpiece to a deal involving Nash, but from my perspective, this would actually be maximizing Nash's value. I'm not sure there is a better potential deal out there.

 

[offdacrossbar]

I have no idea. And it's great that ANA would trade a D for a forward, but that doesn't convince me that this is the right move.



I will not engage you until you answer my post in the goaltending thread where by using your logic in evaluating defense, you anoint Dylan McIlrath as the Rangers best d-man last year because he gave up the least goals.

i will not utter those words. dylan mcilrath and "best defenseman" is heresy.

i disagree with both your conclusion and your methodology.

my eyes tell me that this defense isnt nearly the dumpster fire you say it is- especially if we remove girardi or limit his minutes.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Are there any solid dmen available for a package of our 3rd, and (another teams) 4th and 5th picks?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Guys, remember that Mika Zibanejad wasn't a good possession player when we acquired him, and look at him now. It's about getting players that have the skill sets that fit your needs. Vatanen is agile, moves well laterally, and makes really good outlet passes under pressure. He thinks the game well and can qb a powerplay. I brought him up in the other thread because I saw him as an alternative option to Shattenkirk.

 

[RangerBoy]

Anaheim can't afford Nash without significant money/dollar for dollar being exchanged in the trade. $8.2M salary in 17-18. It's also the last season of the contract.

 

[NickyFotiu]

i will not utter those words. dylan mcilrath and "best defenseman" is heresy.

i disagree with both your conclusion and your methodology.

my eyes tell me that this defense isnt nearly the dumpster fire you say it is- especially if we remove girardi or limit his minutes.

McD only has 1 more goal than Dylan

 

[Tawnos]

Anaheim can't afford Nash without significant money/dollar for dollar being exchanged in the trade. $8.2M salary in 17-18. It's also the last season of the contract.

As it stands, the Rangers could afford to retain 35% of Nash's contract and take on Cogliano.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Best pun I can think of. Continue.

Boo this man

 

[TheGuarantee]

As it stands, the Rangers could afford to retain 35% of Nash's contract and take on Cogliano.

Winner of the early "How do we make our team worse while dealing Nash in the process" award goes to....

 

[GAGLine]

Winner of the early "How do we make our team worse while dealing Nash in the process" award goes to....

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean Nash @ 65% for Cogliano. Obviously there would be other players/prospects/picks coming our way.

 

[silverfish]

i will not utter those words. dylan mcilrath and "best defenseman" is heresy.

i disagree with both your conclusion and your methodology.

my eyes tell me that this defense isnt nearly the dumpster fire you say it is- especially if we remove girardi or limit his minutes.

Okay, well then your entire argument in the goalie thread is bull**** then

 

[NYR Viper]

Vatanen is by no means the 'magic bullet' to fix this defense, however, he would be a nice step towards getting a defense comfortable with moving the puck up quickly and getting guys back there who can make plays with the puck.

The guy has been miss-used this year and he is a right shooting defenseman. He is more suited to a 2nd pairing where he can get some PP time, maybe on the 2nd unit and play with a more defensive partner.

At $4.875m, he is paid like a 2nd pairing defenseman, which is what he is. The only stat that he seems poor at is shot suppression. His shot generation looks good along with his goals/hr, assists/hr and p/hr.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com/?_sm_au_=isVZNrnsn10SHB2w

At 25 years old, he is entering his prime years and most likely, with the style he plays, has another 7-8 years of prime left.

Vatanen isn't as 'sexy' as Shattenkirk, but even Shattenkirk by himself won't transition the entire defense outside of McDonagh. Holden has been very good. Skjei is developing. McDonagh.

Gorton needs to find 2, and possibly 3 if they want Holden on the left, right defensemen.

Ideally, what I was calling for last off-season, was to trade for Vatanen for the 2nd pairing role, and sign Shattenkirk in the off-season to pair with McDonagh. That's a revitalized defense.

Nash @ $6m for Vatanen + Garbutt (in minors on 1-way contract so this will save Anaheim real $$, not cap $$)

Staal to Minnesota after the expansion draft (once they lose Brodin or Dumba) for picks/prospects

Sign Shattenkirk, 7 years @ 6 million/season

McDonagh-Shattenkirk
Holden-Vatanen
Graves-Skjei
Clendening (re-signed)

 

[ZiGOODejad]

I like vatanen but we don't need to give up one of our better assists for him is pass if that was the case


On a side note Is it just me or do people really overvalue Matt Duchene...

 

[TheGuarantee]

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean Nash @ 65% for Cogliano. Obviously there would be other players/prospects/picks coming our way.

Either way. What other pieces come back that make us better than before? Nash has 1 year left and is our best forward that plays the full ice. But yeah let's trade him retain and take Cogliano in the process