Prospect Info: Robert Hagg [March 2014: AAV is $925k, 3-yr ELC, per Tim P.]

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
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But I think you might be in the severe minority in that statement, maybe even among the Hagg ditractors.

I am Spartacus.

That’s how damaging doing absolutely nothing on offense is. Part of an effective defense is flipping possession and starting it the other way.

I don’t have time to get more involved in the discussion right now, but if it’s still going later, I would be happy to do so.
 

sa cyred

Running Data Models
Sep 11, 2007
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I am Spartacus.

That’s how damaging doing absolutely nothing on offense is. Part of an effective defense is flipping possession and starting it the other way.

I don’t have time to get more involved in the discussion right now, but if it’s still going later, I would be happy to do so.
Haha I think I’m good for the day, with Eagles and people coming over. Have a good one!

I think overall both sides are set in their ways on Hagg. It is what it is!
 

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
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Manning and Hagg are basically equal.

Manning hurts the team by being needlessly aggressive in the neutral and offensive zone.

Hagg hurts the team by making it far more difficult to get to the neutral and offensive zone.

Neither are good offensively or defensively. Both are braindead. Both play way too much and drag down the best defensemen on the team.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
53,163
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1. Woh now. That’s just a pure blanket statement. I understand where you are coming from because I remember from even when Hagg was drafted you were never a fan of his. But I think you might be in the severe minority in that statement, maybe even among the Hagg ditractors.
It comes down to puck skills. Manning is by no means the most skilled guy but he has enough to get the puck going towards the other end of the ice and keep it there for a little bit. That doesn't mean I think Manning should be playing over Hagg. Manning doesn't have a future here (hopefully). Hagg might. And I say might because there's a chance they eventually realize he's not very good, but knowing this coach and management, he'll be a top 4 staple for years to come.
2. Going based off CA then Provorov has been horrible and Manning/MacD have been good. CA is how many shots, blocks, and misses a team has against you. CF is the opposite of that and how many you generate.
I know what CF and CA are, but what a lot of people fail to realize is you can be a great in zone defender but if you don't spend enough pushing the play forward, you are going to spend a lot of time defending and naturally the shot attempts are going to pile up. Provorov falls into that category. He needs to be better if he wants to be called a true #1.

3. How are you determining the best shot suppressors here?
CA/60 rel since that is the stat that was brought up.
 

Tripod

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Aug 12, 2008
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In the end, teams will watch film and see that Haggs play is to pass to Ghost and will cut off that option....make Hagg make the play. He will need to be able to make his own outlet passes to help the team.

AMac was the same way with Ghost. Every time he had the puck in front ur zone, he would reverse the play by passing it back by the net to Ghost. Eventually, teams caught on and eliminated that option.

I am not a Hagg hater, but averts in guys who watched Hagg in LV and talked about his weaknesses, pointed out the same issues that Hagg has today. So there has not been that leap in fixing the issues. So my thing is, if he has not been able to fix them in the 3 years in the AHL, why would we think he will fix them in the NHL.

Maybe he just doesn't have the ability to.
 

HankMardukis

Registered User
Oct 24, 2017
34
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Medellin Colombia
Kid hasn't played half a season yet in his career and he's already the punching bag.
No! It has nothing to do with his style in the NHL, he’s been playing this same way since I’ve been watching him play in peewees when his uncle Henrik was his coach in the upside down. And he cost Sweden to lose the Gold medal at the Sochi Olympics by association. So there, that good enough for you? :)
 

Rebels57

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The hits and blocks do tell you one thing, the kid is a gamer. If he can develop some poise with the puck he will be a solid depth defender for us. Think the role Johnny Oduya played for Chicago though, not Hammer.
 
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Striiker

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The logic being used to defend Hagg makes no sense.

Pointing to age and experience only goes so far. It doesn't excuse flaws that have been present for YEARS pre-NHL. He isn't some 18 year old prospect. How often do you see a player be bad at something at lower levels and then suddenly become good at it in the NHL?

And (not to pick on Alchemy specifically, many people have said this type of thing), posts like this...

Kid hasn't played half a season yet in his career and he's already the punching bag.

...don't make sense because it's not an evaluation being made based on half a season. It's being made after watching him play for years.

This logic would work if it was about Patrick, where people are down on him because they're impatient with his lack of impact in the NHL. But Hagg's flaw isn't something he was good at in the past and is now suddenly bad at for 30 games. He's been terrible at moving the puck for a long time... if he can't even do it properly after 3 years in the AHL why would you believe he'll be able to in the NHL?

Use Sanheim as another example. He's been really good at scoring in the past in lower leagues, so saying it's too early to complain about his lack of scoring makes sense. For him it is a matter of experience and adjustment to the NHL. We're not expecting him to magically become good at something he's never been able to do before.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Well, Hagg's first year in the AHL should have been in juniors.
And he's all of 22, which we know is really old for rookie defensemen.
So obviously he can't improve and should be waived immediately for not being Provorov.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
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Well, Hagg's first year in the AHL should have been in juniors.
And he's all of 22, which we know is really old for rookie defensemen.
So obviously he can't improve and should be waived immediately for not being Provorov.
Once again you ignore everything he just said and try and take it to an extreme. Typical.

What makes you think he will improve on the things that he has not been able to improve in in lower levels?

Hope?
 
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Striiker

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Ok. Right. Yep. Sure.

I guess all scouting is useless then. If a player looks really bad at something then it doesn't matter because he can always suddenly fix it when he gets to the NHL. That's realistic to expect. Doesn't matter if he's proved to incapable of it when playing against much weaker competition. Once he's playing at the highest level he'll do it just fine.

I assume, by this logic, we'd be perfectly fine with Hakstol putting Leier on the top line. Maybe he's the sniper we've been looking for? Sure, you could say he's never shown anything to make us think he'd be capable of NHL goalscoring (although, he has a better track record of scoring goals at lower levels than Hagg does with puck moving), but he's only played a few NHL games so anything is possible. Hakstol loves putting players in roles they clearly don't belong in, why not do it again?

If you say you don't think Leier can do it then you're an impatient, scapegoating, hater who is being too rough on a young player.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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I'm being facetious, but y'all are getting bent out of shape.
I don't think anyone has suggested that Hagg is going to become Sanheim.

Rather, as a physical, stay at home defenseman who isn't a bad skater, it's not unreasonable to think that he might improve as a puck handler and passer over what he's shown in his first 30 games of his rookie season. Doesn't mean he'll ever be an offensive force, rather, that he can be a decent third pair D-man who adds some physicality to the defense and learns to make a decent outlet pass.

Now tell me how that's a radical and extremely optimistic position. :huh:
 

HankMardukis

Registered User
Oct 24, 2017
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I know most are truly hurt, no matter how much they want to spin it, but Ron Hextall who had a 13 year NHL career, Stanley Cup finalist, two time NHL All Star, former Vezina and Conn Smythe trophy winner thought that Hagg deserved a spot over Morin. Who has a better chance at knowing more about hockey, Hextall or frequent posters on HF boards? That’s a tough one, but I choose Hextall all day errrday...

Not that Kjell Samuelsson, who played 16 seasons in the NHL and worked with Hagg for 3 seasons would come out and say one of his players has not improved at all, but he also doesn’t strike me as one who will just blow smoke up someone’s you know what. Last year he said Hagg made huge strides in his game and was NHL ready. He wasn’t the only one either.

Now again, I know some of you have claimed to watch Hagg play for years, blah blah blah and said he hasn’t improved, but I’ll take the word of a 16 year NHL pro defenseman in Samuelsson, Pryor, Hextall, etc. who evaluate players now after being them their entire lives over anyone who hasn’t :)
 

Jack Straw

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I really tried to avoid getting dragged into this nonsense, but oh well. Some people are making the argument that Hagg has never shown any ability as a puck moving defenseman. This is demostrably false:

Robert Hagg latest Swedish blueline cherry

... a methodical, two-way defenseman; skilled and highly cerebral .. approaches the game not unlike New Jersey pick Adam Larsson in that he is able to control the tempo and speed of the game through the quality of his decision making .. his skating doesn't immediately impress - doesn't overwhelm with speed or explosiveness, yet he rarely loses the foot races thanks to a smooth, comfortable stride .. his pace is more based on being calculating and swift in his movements .. what sets him apart is an uncanny hockey sense that features a knack for being able to sense and react to pressure .. easily shakes off initial checking pressure and finds his outlets .. a strong, accurate passer - can make a blinding-fast first pass from anywhere on the ice, while his point shot is an absolute rocket .. does not shy away from physical contact either, as he will push back - and backed by astute positional sense .. supports the puck exceptionally well in all zones .. knows how to utilize his athletic good-sized frame (6-2/195) to productively create space and separation .. there is still some immaturity in his game however that will iron out as he gains experience .. must be cognisant of going overboard as he is prone to taking emotional, undisciplined penalties .. can handle the pace of a game when it intensifies - an attribute which makes him attractive as a potential universal, top-four NHL defenseman.

Hockey's Future - Robert Hagg

Hagg is generally sound in most aspects of the game, but doesn’t have any dominant traits nor has he been consistent in his effort, which plagued him in his first AHL season. He keeps things simple, but can sometimes miss assignments in his own zone and a choppy stride prevents him from controlling the play on the rush. He can play the point on the powerplay, and he makes a sound breakout pass. He has a great frame, is not shy of the rough stuff, and looks like he can be molded into a punishing defender. ... He projects as a sound, two-way defenseman.

NHL Draft prospects: No. 24 Robert Hagg - Sportsnet.ca

Hagg plays well at both ends of the ice, but mostly makes an impact in the offensive zone. He’s an adept puck-handler and passer, and excels with the puck on his stick. He has a good shot and can be a weapon on the man advantage due to his ability to put the puck on net, or on his teammates’ sticks. Hagg plays with swagger and a confident demeanor, but is sometimes downgraded due to inconsistencies in his game.

“A very interesting prospect, Hagg has very good two-way potential and stands out most because of his ability to skate with the puck,” says Ross MacLean, head scout for International Scouting Services. “He can be risky but also has a strong shot and is always a dangerous shooting option from the point. He needs to be more consistent defensively and improve his transitional skating on the defensive side.”

"Sometimes, he plays very aloof. Sometimes, he gives the appearance that he doesn’t care. He has all the skill in the world, just sometimes he doesn’t apply himself."

The Hockey News

ASSETS:
Is a tremendous puck mover with a smooth skating stride. Can play an effective shutdown role, mostly because of an extremely active stick. Can log huge amounts of ice time.
FLAWS:
Has the size NHL scouts love, but he must learn how to use it more effectively (and more often) to maximize output at the highest level. Is not a natural point producer.
CAREER POTENTIAL:
Smooth, reliable defenseman with some upside.


2013 Draft Prospect Profile #25: Robert Hägg

He is a high-end skater, possessing an effortless stride and quick acceleration. He appears to glide when he is on the ice, with a high amount of offensive ability. He makes quality rushes, and he displays great puck movement in every zone. He is not a flashy puck handler, but he has good subtle hands, with the ability to make open ice maneuvers. He has a big shot from the point, and several NHL sources indicate that he frequently relies on that asset. Scouts are divided on Hagg's defensive play. One thinks it is his best asset, while another calls him a very well-rounded player, and yet others say his defense needs work. From my assessment, I do not think he is an exceptional defensive player. He is quality in his own end, but he does make the odd bad decision here and there. Still, there is a lot to like about Hagg. He has a great hockey brain, mobility, and solid physicality.

Robert Hägg

Hägg has been on draft radars for several years now as the young defender has captivated hockey scouts with his fluid mobile skating ability and poised approach that many veterans do not even possess. Hägg is a cerebral player who slows the game down with his exceptional puck moving skills and ability to remain calm under pressure. He owns a good sized frame and projects to be a top-four defender that can log both offensive and defensive minutes.

***
So the scouting reports on Hagg were generally consistent, positives being his skill as a puck mover, negatives being questionable defense and inconsistancy. I believe someone in the thread made the argument (in defense of Sanheim or Ghost, or maybe both) that it's easier to learn defense than offense. Apparently Hagg has learned defense. If you've really followed Hagg over the years then you should know that the general opinion of him has always, always, always been:

Great tools, questionable toolbox.

WJC highlights:



Pretty consistent with the scouting reports. Not flashy but makes good reads, quick passes, skates the puck well, big shot. To say that Hagg has never shown ability as a puck moving defenseman is simply not true. Now, if you want to make the argument that his offensive game has not translated to the North American game, I would say that's a fair argument. I would even be tempted to agree. But that is a completely different argument than claiming that he never had that ability to begin with. But if you want to make the failure of translation argument then you have wonder is that Hagg's failing, is it a failure of coaching/development in the Flyers organization, or is it just what they want him to do?

I wanted the Flyers to draft him, I was hoping they would trade for a 2nd 1st rounder that year (didn't think he'd be available in the 2nd), so I've been watching him pretty closely since he came to North America. My feeling right now is he's doing fine for a rookie defenseman who hasn't even played half a season in the toughest hockey league in the world. I was expecting more offense (based on what I saw during the WJC and from the scouting reports) but I am impressed with his play in the defensive zone. If in two or three years he is the worst defenseman on Flyers roster then the Flyers will probably have a pretty damn good blue line.

Apologies for the length of this post, I know some people like them short and sweet. :sarcasm:
 
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Larry44

#FireTortsNOW
Mar 1, 2002
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What I like about Hagg's play so far is his combination of solid skating and size. He's fast enough to defend fast players and strong enough to hit or move the big powerforwards. He moves the puck well enough too. He's turning into a solid dman. What's not to like?
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
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It makes you wonder if the offensive game was coached out of him in the A..much like they decided to do early on with Morin and even Sanheim to a lesser extent (no PP1 time?!)
 

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
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You guys are basically arguing for me at this point. These arguments are crazy weak because your position is so weak.

The @deadhead @HankMardukis and @JackStraw posts boil down to...

1) He's hasn't been good at puck moving all throughout his years at the AHL level but maybe he'll suddenly become good at it in the NHL, where it's much harder to do so.

Some guys can't hack it on the smaller ice where you he's less room and time.

2) An appeal to authority. Well damn, I guess no GMs ever f*** up, right?

3) Wanting to ignore what we're seeing and instead listen to what scouts said years ago, some of which is from when he was playing 3 levels below where he is now. Obviously scouts never get it wrong either, justvlike how GMs are flawless.

Hey, could someone remind me how Yakupov is doing right now? Or any other player who the scouts were wrong about... there's been many. There's so much in those quotes that prove they were way off. You don't even have to take my work for it... just watch him play and it's obvious.
 

JojoTheWhale

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May 22, 2008
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At what point can I say the offensive light isn’t going to go on then? I’ll throw out the 10 Games at the end of 2013-14 as an adjustment period. That still leaves us at ~225 Games in North America over 4 Years.

It makes you wonder if the offensive game was coached out of him in the A..much like they decided to do early on with Morin and even Sanheim to a lesser extent (no PP1 time?!)

There are degrees to me. While I absolutely believe this to be true and severely damaging (you know I give a Hextall zero passes for this), it’s to a completely different degree in his case. His whole approach to hockey is aspiring to tread water.

I still have zero explanation for the Carolina game. Not a clue what happened.
 
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Jack Straw

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You guys are basically arguing for me at this point. These arguments are crazy weak because your position is so weak.

The @deadhead @HankMardukis and @JackStraw posts boil down to...

1) He's hasn't been good at puck moving all throughout his years at the AHL level but maybe he'll suddenly become good at it in the NHL, where it's much harder to do so.

Some guys can't hack it on the smaller ice where you he's less room and time.

2) An appeal to authority. Well damn, I guess no GMs ever **** up, right?

3) Wanting to ignore what we're seeing and instead listen to what scouts said years ago, some of which is from when he was playing 3 levels below where he is now. Obviously scouts never get it wrong either, justvlike how GMs are flawless.

Hey, could someone remind me how Yakupov is doing right now? Or any other player who the scouts were wrong about... there's been many. There's so much in those quotes that prove they were way off. You don't even have to take my work for it... just watch him play and it's obvious.

You have repeatedly made the argument that Hagg has never shown offensive ability. Not just in the AHL, but ever. This is just absolutely wrong. That's all my argument was. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth (or in my post). I didn't make any of the arguments that you claim I made in your three points.
 

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