Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Thanks for starting the Dmen analysis EB, I will definitely have a reply to it, particularly regarding Ken Reardon who I think is being underrated (EDIT: looks like Sturm already chimed in here), but I had already started on the Lundqvist comparison, so I finished that and here it is...
This is going to mostly look at Lundqvist compared to goaltenders that start getting drafted in the 20's. Because it was requested, I also included a couple guys from the next tier up, (Tony Esposito and Roy Worters).
I have not included Smith and Fuhr because so much of their resumes are based on the playoffs. Lehman has also been left out because of the split league era.
Vezina/All Star Records (Vezina used for when it became the award for best goalie and not lowest GAA)
Tony Esposito: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7
Roy Worters: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 (No result for 1930, Gardiner led all goalies in Hart voting, Worters led in GAA)
These two have records clearly above the rest, I am not going to include them in further analysis, but wanted to make this known
_Tiny Thompson: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 (What would his record look like if Charlie Gardiner hadn’t died?)
Henrik Lundqvist: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 6, 6* (*one vote) (also was 2005 Swedish League MVP)
__Tom Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3
__Chuck Rayner: 1, 2, 2, 3 (missed 3 years to War) (His 1st was actually a 2nd but in this era the Vezina winner defaulted to 1st Team AS, Rayner was runner-up twice to the Vezina winner, I changed one of these to a 1st)
___Ed Giacomin: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
__Johnny Bower: 1, 3, 3, 3, 3
__G. Hainsworth: 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5 (Missing 27, 29, 30)
_Gump Worsley: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4
__Harry Lumley: 1, 1, 3
Most Years Top 4:
7: Thompson
6: Lundqvist
5: Barrasso, Giacomin, Bower, Worsley
4: Rayner*
3: Lumley, Hainsworth*
*See above regarding time missed/incomplete records
Lundqvist looks very good in the above, and we must also consider that he had a lot more competition than some of the others. A 4th in the modern era means you're an elite goaltender, whereas a 4th in the O6 means you're in the bottom half of the league. The goaltending position has been affected more than any other by league expansion. Not including the year where he got 1 vote, Lundqvist has been named a top 6 goalie 8 years, and also was named the Swedish Elite League MVP the year before he came to the NHL (where he finished 3rd in Vezina voting as a rookie).
Playoffs/Big Games
These are a big part of a goaltender's legacy, of which Lundqvist's counterparts have better resumes. So far Lundqvist has one Cup Final run in which he was a Conn Smythe candidate (see my bio for sources). He also won Olympic Gold + Silver Medals and was named to WC AS Team in 2004. Here is an attempt to rank everyone's playoff/big game resumes.
Bower
Thompson/Hainsworth
Barrasso/Worsley/Lundqvist
Lumley/Rayner
Giacomin
This was tough for me, Bower is clearly #1 and Giacomin an easy last. Rayner is extremely difficult as he has a retro Smythe but only one other playoff appearance. I was pretty unsure where to rank Worsley as well. Any help with this is appreciated. Lundqvist is adding to his resume as we speak, but anything significant won't happen until this round is over.
Here is a deeper look at how Lundqvist’s teams have done with him in net with regards to winning/losing a series as a favorite/underdog (when you see the word slight favorite it means the teams were within a couple points, so basically even but it tells you who had home ice).
2006: Lost as an Underdog
2007: Won as a Slight Underdog ; Lost as an Underdog
2008: Won as a Slight Underdog ; Lost as an Underdog
2009: Lost as an Underdog
2010: N/A
2011: Lost as an Underdog
2012: Won as a Favorite; Won as a Favorite; Lost as a Favorite
2013: Won as an Underdog; Lost as a Slight Underdog
2014: Won as a Slight Favorite; Won as an Underdog; Won as an Underdog; Lost as an Underdog
So only once has Lundqvist’s team not won when they were “supposed to” which was in 2012 against New Jersey in the Conference Finals. Twice they have won as a slight underdog, and 3 times as an underdog. 10x his team has performed as was expected. To sum up, in 16 playoff series, 10 have been as expected, 5 better than expected, and 1 worse than expected.
I was pleasantly surprised to see how Lundqvist holds up here…he may not have the Cups of these other guys, but he has fewer disappointments than many of them and after last year he has one elite Cup run to go along with a few high end international performances.
Importance to Team
The next thing to look at is how important were these guys to their teams. Lundqvist has been one of, if not the best player on his team…named MVP 7x in 10 seasons. I would say the only guy who can hold a candle to that is Chuck Rayner, and he likely bests Lundqvist in this category.
Peer Comparison
Lundqvist has been the most consistently elite goaltender of his generation. How do the rest of these guys compare to other goaltenders born within a few years of them?
Bower: Bested by Plante/Hall/Sawchuk
Thompson: Bested by Gardiner
Hainsworth: Bested by Vezina/Benedict
Barrasso: Bested by Roy/Hasek/Belfour
Worsley: Bested by Plante/Hall/Sawchuk/Bower
Lumley: Bested by Plante/Sawchuk
Rayner: Bested by Durnan
Giacomin: Bested by Esposito/Parent
Final Summary: Among the above group of below-average goaltenders Lundqvist has one of the best Vezina/AS records, looks the best of anyone in a peer comparison, and was among the best in importance to his team. The one area where Lundqvist is pedestrian among this group is playoffs/big games, but I think I showed that his NHL playoff resume is actually pretty good, and when you factor in some high end international performances he isn’t as far behind as people generally consider him to be. Taking all things to consideration it appears as if Lundqvist deserves to be selected in the upper part of this group rather than the lower part.
*IMO Chuck Rayner also looks to be underrated relative to his draft position.
This is going to mostly look at Lundqvist compared to goaltenders that start getting drafted in the 20's. Because it was requested, I also included a couple guys from the next tier up, (Tony Esposito and Roy Worters).
I have not included Smith and Fuhr because so much of their resumes are based on the playoffs. Lehman has also been left out because of the split league era.
Vezina/All Star Records (Vezina used for when it became the award for best goalie and not lowest GAA)
Tony Esposito: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7
Roy Worters: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 (No result for 1930, Gardiner led all goalies in Hart voting, Worters led in GAA)
These two have records clearly above the rest, I am not going to include them in further analysis, but wanted to make this known
_Tiny Thompson: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 (What would his record look like if Charlie Gardiner hadn’t died?)
Henrik Lundqvist: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 6, 6* (*one vote) (also was 2005 Swedish League MVP)
__Tom Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3
__Chuck Rayner: 1, 2, 2, 3 (missed 3 years to War) (His 1st was actually a 2nd but in this era the Vezina winner defaulted to 1st Team AS, Rayner was runner-up twice to the Vezina winner, I changed one of these to a 1st)
___Ed Giacomin: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
__Johnny Bower: 1, 3, 3, 3, 3
__G. Hainsworth: 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5 (Missing 27, 29, 30)
_Gump Worsley: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4
__Harry Lumley: 1, 1, 3
Most Years Top 4:
7: Thompson
6: Lundqvist
5: Barrasso, Giacomin, Bower, Worsley
4: Rayner*
3: Lumley, Hainsworth*
*See above regarding time missed/incomplete records
Lundqvist looks very good in the above, and we must also consider that he had a lot more competition than some of the others. A 4th in the modern era means you're an elite goaltender, whereas a 4th in the O6 means you're in the bottom half of the league. The goaltending position has been affected more than any other by league expansion. Not including the year where he got 1 vote, Lundqvist has been named a top 6 goalie 8 years, and also was named the Swedish Elite League MVP the year before he came to the NHL (where he finished 3rd in Vezina voting as a rookie).
Playoffs/Big Games
These are a big part of a goaltender's legacy, of which Lundqvist's counterparts have better resumes. So far Lundqvist has one Cup Final run in which he was a Conn Smythe candidate (see my bio for sources). He also won Olympic Gold + Silver Medals and was named to WC AS Team in 2004. Here is an attempt to rank everyone's playoff/big game resumes.
Bower
Thompson/Hainsworth
Barrasso/Worsley/Lundqvist
Lumley/Rayner
Giacomin
This was tough for me, Bower is clearly #1 and Giacomin an easy last. Rayner is extremely difficult as he has a retro Smythe but only one other playoff appearance. I was pretty unsure where to rank Worsley as well. Any help with this is appreciated. Lundqvist is adding to his resume as we speak, but anything significant won't happen until this round is over.
Here is a deeper look at how Lundqvist’s teams have done with him in net with regards to winning/losing a series as a favorite/underdog (when you see the word slight favorite it means the teams were within a couple points, so basically even but it tells you who had home ice).
2006: Lost as an Underdog
2007: Won as a Slight Underdog ; Lost as an Underdog
2008: Won as a Slight Underdog ; Lost as an Underdog
2009: Lost as an Underdog
2010: N/A
2011: Lost as an Underdog
2012: Won as a Favorite; Won as a Favorite; Lost as a Favorite
2013: Won as an Underdog; Lost as a Slight Underdog
2014: Won as a Slight Favorite; Won as an Underdog; Won as an Underdog; Lost as an Underdog
So only once has Lundqvist’s team not won when they were “supposed to” which was in 2012 against New Jersey in the Conference Finals. Twice they have won as a slight underdog, and 3 times as an underdog. 10x his team has performed as was expected. To sum up, in 16 playoff series, 10 have been as expected, 5 better than expected, and 1 worse than expected.
I was pleasantly surprised to see how Lundqvist holds up here…he may not have the Cups of these other guys, but he has fewer disappointments than many of them and after last year he has one elite Cup run to go along with a few high end international performances.
Importance to Team
The next thing to look at is how important were these guys to their teams. Lundqvist has been one of, if not the best player on his team…named MVP 7x in 10 seasons. I would say the only guy who can hold a candle to that is Chuck Rayner, and he likely bests Lundqvist in this category.
Peer Comparison
Lundqvist has been the most consistently elite goaltender of his generation. How do the rest of these guys compare to other goaltenders born within a few years of them?
Bower: Bested by Plante/Hall/Sawchuk
Thompson: Bested by Gardiner
Hainsworth: Bested by Vezina/Benedict
Barrasso: Bested by Roy/Hasek/Belfour
Worsley: Bested by Plante/Hall/Sawchuk/Bower
Lumley: Bested by Plante/Sawchuk
Rayner: Bested by Durnan
Giacomin: Bested by Esposito/Parent
Final Summary: Among the above group of below-average goaltenders Lundqvist has one of the best Vezina/AS records, looks the best of anyone in a peer comparison, and was among the best in importance to his team. The one area where Lundqvist is pedestrian among this group is playoffs/big games, but I think I showed that his NHL playoff resume is actually pretty good, and when you factor in some high end international performances he isn’t as far behind as people generally consider him to be. Taking all things to consideration it appears as if Lundqvist deserves to be selected in the upper part of this group rather than the lower part.
*IMO Chuck Rayner also looks to be underrated relative to his draft position.