Relocation?

[CantHaveTkachev]

about as much as comparing the lightning with the jets

don't worry man, Canucks fans deserted their team in the last 90s (their season ticket base was like 8000)

as for the Jets, they can compete in the NHL with a payroll of 25-30mil IMO

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

What bugs me most in these relocation discussions is the feeling mong some Canadian fans that folks who don't think Winnipeg, for example, is a legitimate candidate to get a relocated team must hate Canada/Canadians/Winnipeg. Seems to me it's a reasoned opinion based on several factors, including population, arena amenities and corporate support - things the NHL is going to consider.

I, for one, wish they'd never moved teams out of Quebec and Winnipeg. The fans bases there are terrific. But those were business decisions. And I'm not sure enough has changed in the ensuing years to bring the NHL back.

 

[Hawker14]

What are you talking about?

I have nothing against Winnipeg and I would like to see a team there but it is not realistic.

wetcoaster, i've often enjoyed reading your posts as they are usually intelligent, informative and well researched. your knowledge of the law has been a definite bonus to these forums and are much appreciated.

that being said, i've read before in a prior post that you would like to see a team in winnipeg, however every post i've read of yours regarding the subject is negative.

when you point out facts, it is a benefit to the discussion.

however, from my point of view, and i wouldn't presume to say i have a better knowledge of the winnipeg business scene than you as i don't know you personally, but i will say i have a very good sense of the the business community here.

it's for this reason that i become concerned when someone opinionates that winnipeg's corporate sector wouldn't/couldn't support the NHL.

the MTS Centre's luxury suites are all sold out at $ 45,000 apiece. This is amazing corporate support for AHL hockey. Could these firms afford $ 125,000 per suite for NHL ? This I where we disagree.
I know my firm would definitely step up to the plate and pay the extra amount, because frankly it makes good business sense, and i see the other suite holders happily forking out the extra $$$ as well. Winnipeg has a thriving business community, including booming high tech & housing development sectors.

Winnipeg's arena, at 15,015 seats, is often said to be small to be an NHL calibre rink. However, Gary Bettman has said the arena is fine for the NHL, so I'll take his word for it. Further Cal Nicholls, part owner of the Edmonton Oilers, has been quoted, to paraphase " it's better to have 1,000 seats to few, then 2,000 seats to many". Of course, simple supply and demand equations also prove this theory, which also benefits ancillary businesses such as tv rights, pay per view, etc.

also, bettman stated something along the lines of ... "in hindsight we should have done more to save winnipeg, although i don't see a team in winnipeg in the foreseeable future, as we are first committed to making our current 30 teams viable". my response to this is that the longer the lockout goes on, the less chance current struggling markets in non-traditional markets have to be viable. the nhl can have a $ 15 million salary cap, it's not going to matter to carolina and florida when 5,000 fans are showing up at games.

and finally, all 30 nhl teams equally share both national tv deals, so a relocation of a current team wouldn't affect any Cdn clubs revenues from these areas, which i presume is one of the main reasons both the calgary and edmonton ownership groups both support an NHL team relocating to Winnipeg.

 

[Hawker14]

What bugs me most in these relocation discussions is the feeling mong some Canadian fans that folks who don't think Winnipeg, for example, is a legitimate candidate to get a relocated team must hate Canada/Canadians/Winnipeg. Seems to me it's a reasoned opinion based on several factors, including population, arena amenities and corporate support - things the NHL is going to consider.

I, for one, wish they'd never moved teams out of Quebec and Winnipeg. The fans bases there are terrific. But those were business decisions. And I'm not sure enough has changed in the ensuing years to bring the NHL back.

population: 100,000 NHL fans is much better than 50,000 NHL fans, regardless of total population. the nhl is a product with a narrow fanbase, thus total population is not relevant in real $$$

arena: everyone involved with the NHL that i have heard or read, has said the MTS Centre is NHL calibre. i've yet to hear or read different from NHL types.

corporate support: the corporate sector already supports the AHL with sold out luxury boxes at $ 45K each. It's not a stretch that $ 125K each is certainly within reach for the NHL.

 

[monkey_00*]

Monkey,

Is the owner you are talking about the same guy who owns Chelsae Football Club in the English Premier League ?

TbOne.........

No it's not..........the guy you are referring to is Roman Abramovich......his net worth is $ 12.5 billion and he's 37 yrs old...he spent over $400 million to buy London's Chelsea football club (#2 wealthiest in Russia, #25 in World).............the guy that's interested in bringing NHL to Hamilton owns a Steel Company in Russia called SEVERSTAL and he also owns a hockey club in the Russian Super League by the same name......his name is Alexei Mordashov...his net worth is $ 4.5 billion; (Severstal Group, metals, transport) and he's only 38-yrs old......

------------------------------------------------------------

Alexei Alexandrovich Mordashov:

Net Worth: $4.5 billion (According to Forbes magazine)
* Took over SEVERSTAL STEEL in 1996 when he was only 30-years of age....today he is 38-years old.

# 136 on World's Richest People 2004
# 9 on Russia 100 (2004)

Country of citizenship: Russia
Residence: Cherepovets, Russia
Industry: Manufacturing
Marital Status: married , 2 children

Bachelor of Arts / Science
University of Northumbria, Master of Business Administration

Biography: Boss of Severstal, Russia's second largest steel company. Son of millworker parents, in the mid-1980s Mordashov went to study economics in Leningrad. Later was named finance director of a steel mill. When the plant's elderly general director instructed him to buy up shares of the company so it would not fall into the hands of an outsider, Mordashov bought most of the shares himself. Became general director of the company and built it into a conglomerate, acquiring automaker UAZ, coal companies, railroad companies, port facilities, local TV stations and newspapers. Last year he outbid U.S. Steel to buy bankrupt American steel company Rouge Industries for $285 million. A leading proponent of Western-style management training, Mordashov is advocating for Russia's entry into the WTO.
---------------------------------------------

Top-10 Wealthiest Russians:

(1) Mikhail Khodorkovsky $ 15.2 bill; Oil; 40 yrs old (#1 in Russia, #16 in World)
(2) Roman Abramovich $ 12.5 bill; Sibneft, Russ. Aluminum, oil, metals; 37 yrs old...$400 million to buy London's Chelsea football club (#2 in Russia, #25 in World)
(3) Viktor Vekselberg $ 5.9 billion; TNK-BP, SUAL-Holding, oil ,metals; 47 yrs old; Ukranian-born (#3 in Russia, #143 in World)
(4) Mikhail Prokhorov $ 5.4 billion; Norilsk Nickel, metals; 39-yrs old
(5) Vladimir Potanin $ 5.4 billion; Norilsk Nickel, metals; 43-yrs old
(6) Mikhail Fridman $ 5.2 billion; Alfa-Group , oil, telecommunications; 40-yrs old
(7) Vladimir Lisin $ 4.8 billion; Novolipetsk Metallurgical ,metals; 48-yrs old
(8) Oleg Deripaska $ 4.5 billion; Russian Aluminum , metals; 36-yrs old...His father-in-law is the son-in-law of former President Boris Yeltsin.
(9) Alexei Mordashov $ 4.5 billion; Severstal Group, metals, transport; 38-yrs old
(10)Vagit Alekperov $ 3.9 billion; Lukoil, oil; 53-yrs old...Alekperov is in good standing with President Vladimir Putin. Lukoil has a good chance of developing one of Iraq's biggest oilfields (under an old contract signed under Saddam Hussein) , recently got permission to develop natural gas deposits in Saudi Arabia and is moving ahead with plans to export Russian oil directly to the U.S
-------------------------------------------
Should also note at this point that Alexei Alexandrovich Mordashov is fluent in both English and German.

Below is a link to an article talking about SEVERSTAL's takeover bid of Hamilton Ontario's STELCO:

http://www.mosnews.com/money/2004/11/10/severstal.shtml
----------------------------------------------------------

Below the link to SEVERSTAL hockey jerseys:

http://www.russianjerseys.com/severstal.html#

 

[DARKSIDE]

Ny is the number 1 US media market and LA is second. I don't know NY's population figures, but there are more people in California than all of Canada.

I believe it' s around 25 million for NY State. And you also have to figure in Southern Connecticut and Central and Northern New Jersey. (Tri-State Area).

However, North of Albany they probably root for the Sabers.

 

[kdb209]

Top-10 Wealthiest Russians:

(1) Mikhail Khodorkovsky $ 15.2 bill; Oil; 40 yrs old (#1 in Russia, #16 in World)

Not anymore he's not. He's sitting in prison on trumped up tax charges, and pretty much had everything stolen by the Kremlin, because he was foolish enough to challenge Putin.

One very major caveat when looking at all these Russian Billionaires - they're all one Putin fiat from being Khodorkovsky-ed.

This is one reason they are desperately trying to find ways to move their $'s out of Russia.

(2) Roman Abramovich $ 12.5 bill; Sibneft, Russ. Aluminum, oil, metals; 37 yrs old...$400 million to buy London's Chelsea football club (#2 in Russia, #25 in World)
(3) Viktor Vekselberg $ 5.9 billion; TNK-BP, SUAL-Holding, oil ,metals; 47 yrs old; Ukranian-born (#3 in Russia, #143 in World)
(4) Mikhail Prokhorov $ 5.4 billion; Norilsk Nickel, metals; 39-yrs old
(5) Vladimir Potanin $ 5.4 billion; Norilsk Nickel, metals; 43-yrs old
(6) Mikhail Fridman $ 5.2 billion; Alfa-Group , oil, telecommunications; 40-yrs old
(7) Vladimir Lisin $ 4.8 billion; Novolipetsk Metallurgical ,metals; 48-yrs old
(8) Oleg Deripaska $ 4.5 billion; Russian Aluminum , metals; 36-yrs old...His father-in-law is the son-in-law of former President Boris Yeltsin.
(9) Alexei Mordashov $ 4.5 billion; Severstal Group, metals, transport; 38-yrs old
(10)Vagit Alekperov $ 3.9 billion; Lukoil, oil; 53-yrs old.

 

[av'sfan33]

don't worry man, Canucks fans deserted their team in the last 90s (their season ticket base was like 8000)

They still averaged around 15,500 a year. I would hardly call that deserting the team.

 

[av'sfan33]

Winnipeg's arena, at 15,015 seats, is often said to be small to be an NHL calibre rink. However, Gary Bettman has said the arena is fine for the NHL, so I'll take his word for it.

They can still only draw 15,000 fans on average per game and around 610,00-615,000 total.

Via last years numbers the Winnipeg jets would sit around 23-24 in average attendance a game and 19-20 in total attendance a year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?sort=home_total&year=2004

 

[monkey_00*]

Not anymore he's not. He's sitting in prison on trumped up tax charges, and pretty much had everything stolen by the Kremlin, because he was foolish enough to challenge Putin.

One very major caveat when looking at all these Russian Billionaires - they're all one Putin fiat from being Khodorkovsky-ed.

This is one reason they are desperately trying to find ways to move their $'s out of Russia.

kdb209...........

Thanks for the update on Mikhail Khodorkovsky........even though he has nothing to do with SEVERSTAL STEEL.

 

[monkey_00*]

.............just an update regarding SEVERSTAL'S takeover attempt of STELCO in Hamilton........Hamilton finds out this week who ends up buying STELCO.........there are 5-groups interested but only one of the groups is a Steel company like Stelco and that being SEVERSTAL STEEL of Russia whose owners have already mentioned that if they take over Stelco in Hamilton they will do everything in their power to help bring NHL hockey to Hamilton.........SEVERSTAL also owns a hockey club in the Russian Super League by the same name...........interesting enough one of the other groups interested in taking over STELCO is the TEACHER'S PENSION FUND and TD BANK both of which are current owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs............I will keep everybody posted.

 

[me2]

don't worry man, Canucks fans deserted their team in the last 90s (their season ticket base was like 8000)

as for the Jets, they can compete in the NHL with a payroll of 25-30mil IMO

Attendance Figures
2003/2004 18.630
2002/2003 18.393
2001/2002 17.712
2000/2001 17.017
1999/2000 14.642 avg ticket $36
1998/1999 15.803 avg ticket $40
1997/1998 17.305
1996/1997 16.940
1995/1996 17.816

The team was pretty bad through a lot of that and prices weren't that cheap. Over the two worst years they averaged 15250. MTS Centre website claims 15,015 for icehockey games. So Van at its worst is about as good as the Jets as its best in attendance.

I also don't see the jets charging any more than what Van charged in it down period (prices of $36 * $40 a ticket). Edmonton and Calgary have only just reached the lowest Van ticket price in the last 10 years. The MTS Centre doesn't even have the luxury box capacity * business market Van had to carry it through the tough times. What does Van get for a luxury box? $180K was being floated around?

Edm and Calgary are better markets than Winnipeg and they are struggling from year to year. What if Winnipeg is in the middle of a down period, $25-30 a ticket and 10000-12000 fans a game won't cut it. I'd love to see the new Jets, but their up times are going to lower than Van's down times. If there was large scale revenue sharing then bring them back! If not, I don't think they'll make it.

 

[Injektilo]

If there was large scale revenue sharing then bring them back! If not, I don't think they'll make it.

Bingo. No one's saying that Winnipeg doesn't deserve an NHL team or couldn't support one under any circumstances, but revenue sharing would be incredibly important, along with a low cap. I'd love to see Winnipeg back with a team, and I'd especially love to see the market at the point that it could support a team in Winnipeg. I really wish revenue sharing was discussed a little more, but the focus seems to be on a cap. I think the best Winnipeg fans can hope for is a long lockout which brings in a very low cap and that certain teams are very heavily hit by the lockout and need to look elsewhere.