OT: Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XXI-Maybe a Banner Year

[bruinsfan1970]

Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1280395


Have at it......

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[Shaun]

@Buster_ESPN: Rival official on Red Sox: "Boston is listening on... Ellsbury and Lester, but not motivated to move them unless teams overpay."

 

[LSCII]

@Buster_ESPN: Rival official on Red Sox: "Boston is listening on... Ellsbury and Lester, but not motivated to move them unless teams overpay."

Both coming off of very sub par years, so I'd say the chances of anyone coming close to overpaying are slim to none. It could happen, but I think it's highly unlikely. If anything, someone may be willing to take a chance on Lester more so than Ells, since he's signed longer and doesn't have durability questions.

 

[Dojji*]

LSCII, from the last thread:

My point has been all along that these signings are more about PR than about improving the team because they don't make it a much better team than what they fielded last year.

I'm not sure why that's a problem per se. It's exactly what the team should be doing right now -- building confidence by signing entertaining players that will help keep the fans in the stadium until we're ready to go for it again. If you're not prepared to be entertained by watching a team that is charismatic and likeable, but doesn't have to be loaded with superstars and favored to dominate their division, well, that's you. It certainly isn't and shouldn't be everyone. If they succeed in that goal, I'll still watch, I know that.

Your issue seems to be that you don't like having nothing to look forward to but regular season ball. I can sympathize, but blamecasting is a bit premature when the team does in fact have at least an outside shot of October.

And let's not kid ourselves -- the lineup is better today than it was last year. I'll take Gomes over Nava or what Crawford was last year. I'll take Napoli over what Gonzo was last year. I'll take Victorino over what we got out of centerfield last year -- which really is not much at all.

The only question in my mind is shortstop, and let's face it -- Aviles isn't hard to improve over. A reasonable solution to that position that we don't have to overpay for, and we're a pitcher away from being in the Wild Card hunt.

 

[Shaun]

They are spending money to make it look like they arent tanking but in reality they are still tanking

 

[ColdSteel2]

Not a chance.

Matt Garza is a very solid #3, MAYBE a #2. That isn't worth Bogaerts at all. I like Garza, but you need to lower your expectations a little bit.

We'd just resign him then. Garza is a legit #2, but I guess it depends on your definition. He's whatever you think Jon Lester is...if that is a #3 with #2 upside, then that's a fine definition for Garza too. There is no point in trading him unless we get one highly regarded blue prospect. Theo has been demanding two such prospects since the beginning so I am not even sure if he would deal him for one, but I would if it was the right guy.

 

[Dojji*]

If they're improving their roster, they're not tanking.

There's a difference between going into the regular season with no real shot of a playoff berth, and tanking.

I dunno, maybe they should tank. LSCII seems to think that if they're not penned into a playoff spot by February, they should probably tank.

I tend to disagree. In a regular baseball season, you lose too much entertainment value by being heavily fixated on the end product and not giving yourselves opportunities for awesome moments to remember even as a non-playoff team. The regular season is a more valuable aspect of baseball season than it is in any other sport. There's something to being along for the ride. If we've lost sight of that, it's because how spoiled this ownership group has made us over the years.

 

[Shaun]

They haven't improved their roster.

 

[Dojji*]

Sure they have. Just not as much as you might want. Position by position they have improved. The only real loss is Cody Ross, and between Napoli and Gomes we've surely countered that, and Victorino will pick up value defensively in areas where Ross really couldn't or didn't.

I'd worry more about the shortstop position but Aviles was barely adequate, Ciriaco could probably outplay him as a fulltime SS pretty handily if we asked him to. And Iglesias' great glove and nonbat is pretty much a wash with Mr. Below Average At Everything.

 

[CDJ]

If the Cubs want prospects in exchange for Garza then something would probably be worked out around Webster and Brentz.

At the deadline, the Cubs were gunning hard for Webster in a potential Ryan Dempster deal. The Dodgers turned them down then as he was untouchable, but maybe we will see the Cubs interest reemerge?

 

[bp13]

They are spending money to make it look like they arent tanking but in reality they are still tanking

"Tanking" implies there's a motivation to lose. what's their motivation, a higher draft pick? Is this basketball?

Further, if there aren't enough quality free agents for a team to sign who will improve that team enough to truly contend, should they simply do nothing? Should they do nothing if their customers pay a premium for professional entertainment and by doing nothing all they've done is guarantee an inferior product and salt away more profits?

Please explain.

 

[bp13]

They haven't improved their roster.

They've lost Ross (so far) and Loney, right? They've added Victorino and Napoli. How again have they not improved the roster?

And before Dark Cloud LSCII swoops in to claim I'm supporting these moves, I'm not doing that per se. I'm simply arguing that as lukewarm as these upgrades might be, they are unquestionably upgrades.

 

[LSCII]

They've lost Ross (so far) and Loney, right? They've added Victorino and Napoli. How again have they not improved the roster?

And before Dark Cloud LSCII swoops in to claim I'm supporting these moves, I'm not doing that per se. I'm simply arguing that as lukewarm as these upgrades might be, they are unquestionably upgrades.

I gotta say, I like that a lot. I may have to use it going forward...

 

[kman22]

We'd just resign him then. Garza is a legit #2, but I guess it depends on your definition. He's whatever you think Jon Lester is...if that is a #3 with #2 upside, then that's a fine definition for Garza too. There is no point in trading him unless we get one highly regarded blue prospect. Theo has been demanding two such prospects since the beginning so I am not even sure if he would deal him for one, but I would if it was the right guy.

With the constant trade rumors and poor results from the team, i wonder if garza will stay when he hits free agency. I honestly think theo is overplaying his hand on this one.

 

[CDJ]

Red Sox Source: "Nobody is safe"

 

[ColdSteel2]

With the constant trade rumors and poor results from the team, i wonder if garza will stay when he hits free agency. I honestly think theo is overplaying his hand on this one.

Everybody knows the Cubs are a budding powerhouse. I don't think the record last year is an issue at all with free agents or the guys on the team. Castro resigned for longterm for a discount. Garza has said he loves being here. The team has already talked about an extension with him. They have made some excellent signings this offseason and will not lose 100 games again. There is still a lot of work to be done for this to be a winning team but I think Garza understands that. I agree Theo is asking for too much in trade, but at the same time, if we aren't getting a stud prospect back, forget it, just keep Garza, he is only 28. I figure the Cubs will be in the race for a playoff spot in 2014 and then it only gets better from there as our prospects will start coming up.

 

[LSCII]

Red Sox Source: "Nobody is safe"

Don't threaten me with hope...

 

[EverettMike]

Red Sox Source: "Nobody is safe"

Good.

 

[N o o d l e s]

Everybody knows the Cubs are a budding powerhouse. I don't think the record last year is an issue at all with free agents or the guys on the team. Castro resigned for longterm for a discount. Garza has said he loves being here. The team has already talked about an extension with him. They have made some excellent signings this offseason and will not lose 100 games again. There is still a lot of work to be done for this to be a winning team but I think Garza understands that. I agree Theo is asking for too much in trade, but at the same time, if we aren't getting a stud prospect back, forget it, just keep Garza, he is only 28. I figure the Cubs will be in the race for a playoff spot in 2014 and then it only gets better from there as our prospects will start coming up.

Forgive me but the Cubs are not a budding powerhouse, I'm sorry. That implies a team like KC in the next few years or what we started to see from TB what, 6 years ago? I have a hard time believing Garza would say anything to the contrary while he's still under contract. The Cubs may have a few bright spots on the M.L. roster now, but their farm system isn't very deep at all and the elite talent at the high level of the farm system is very thin. Unless they become major players in the F.A. market in the next few years, I'm sorry but I fail to see how they're a budding powerhouse.

 

[bp13]

Red Sox Source: "Nobody is safe"

Fingers crossed they move Lester...



and Victorino!!!!

 

[LSCII]

"Tanking" implies there's a motivation to lose. what's their motivation, a higher draft pick? Is this basketball?

Further, if there aren't enough quality free agents for a team to sign who will improve that team enough to truly contend, should they simply do nothing? Should they do nothing if their customers pay a premium for professional entertainment and by doing nothing all they've done is guarantee an inferior product and salt away more profits?

Please explain.

If they wanted good PR, rather than overspend on stiffs, they should have said they were going to go with a homegrown youth movement and rolled back ticket prices from last year. Imagine the goodwill/positive press they would have gotten off that. Instead, you get them paying way more than is reasonable for has beens like Victorino, and keeping prices the same as last year when they had an enormous payroll. Talk about flawed logic. The answer to keeping ticket prices high is to arbitrarily/poorly spend money to justify said ticket prices? You're still getting an inferior product, why is that so hard to see? Maybe it's me, but I'm not seeing who that really benefits (aside from John Henry & Co), since the team is still going to be bad, and the prices are still amongst the highest in the league.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Forgive me but the Cubs are not a budding powerhouse, I'm sorry. That implies a team like KC in the next few years or what we started to see from TB what, 6 years ago? I have a hard time believing Garza would say anything to the contrary while he's still under contract. The Cubs may have a few bright spots on the M.L. roster now, but their farm system isn't very deep at all and the elite talent at the high level of the farm system is very thin. Unless they become major players in the F.A. market in the next few years, I'm sorry but I fail to see how they're a budding powerhouse.

We have high end talent but we just acquired it so like I said, give it a couple more seasons.

Baez, Almora and Soler are all very highly regarded prospects. We also have the No. 2 pick in the draft coming up. They drafted a ton of pitchers last year and will likely do the same again this year. It's hard to say who will and won't pan out but out of that mass, some of them certainly will. Obviously Castro and Rizzo are high end young MLB starters, honorable mention to Castillo at catcher too. One more year of losing for sure, but after that, the team will really start coming together. It took a lot time but the Cubs are doing it the right way. **** trying to get the playoffs and hope for the best, build a dynasty. That's been the gameplan since Day 1 and yeah, it's taken some time and will still take a lot more but with Theo, Hoyer and Co., along with Wilken, you know they are going to hit some home runs with these top 5 draft picks.

The Cubs beating the hell of MLB is something that every MLB fan is going to have to accept and get used to and it's going to be HARD AS HELL to accept, I know, so enjoy 2013 and 2014 because it is over after that.

 

[bp13]

If they wanted good PR, rather than overspend on stiffs, they should have said they were going to go with a homegrown youth movement and rolled back ticket prices from last year. Imagine the goodwill/positive press they would have gotten off that. Instead, you get them paying way more than is reasonable for has beens like Victorino, and keeping prices the same as last year when they had an enormous payroll. Talk about flawed logic. The answer to keeping ticket prices high is to arbitrarily/poorly spend money to justify said ticket prices? You're still getting an inferior product, why is that so hard to see? Maybe it's me, but I'm not seeing who that really benefits (aside from John Henry & Co), since the team is still going to be bad, and the prices are still amongst the highest in the league.

They don't need an "answer" to keep ticket prices high. They CAN keep them high. This is Boston.

If I own the Red Sox and your my PR Director, you lay out two options for me:

1. Fill the seats in my park, at the prices I have now, regardless of whether my team is a real contender or just appears to be through a string of marginal acquisitions. You suspect I can get away with this for the foreseeable future before I see a marked decrease in attendance.

2. Field a team of youngsters (most of whom I know are projected to be marginal MLB players on their best day), and try to score some PR points by cutting prices while filling an assumed lower % of seats. Maybe in a few years a few of my prospects pan out or a few difference-makers hit the FA market and I can get lucky enough to sign them.

I throw out Option 2 immediately, then I fire you for suggesting it.

 

[kman22]

We have high end talent but we just acquired it so like I said, give it a couple more seasons.

Baez, Almora and Soler are all very highly regarded prospects. We also have the No. 2 pick in the draft coming up. They drafted a ton of pitchers last year and will likely do the same again this year. It's hard to say who will and won't pan out but out of that mass, some of them certainly will. Obviously Castro and Rizzo are high end young MLB starters, honorable mention to Castillo at catcher too. One more year of losing for sure, but after that, the team will really start coming together. It took a lot time but the Cubs are doing it the right way. **** trying to get the playoffs and hope for the best, build a dynasty. That's been the gameplan since Day 1 and yeah, it's taken some time and will still take a lot more but with Theo, Hoyer and Co., along with Wilken, you know they are going to hit some home runs with these top 5 draft picks.

The Cubs beating the hell of MLB is something that every MLB fan is going to have to accept and get used to and it's going to be HARD AS HELL to accept, I know, so enjoy 2013 and 2014 because it is over after that.

I think you're dreaming. They've drafted pitching and still have no pitching. They have a few prospects that are really good, but they are years from competing as a team. Especially when they are in the same division as the cardinals and the reds.

 

[LSCII]

They don't need an "answer" to keep ticket prices high. They CAN keep them high. This is Boston.

If I own the Red Sox and your my PR Director, you lay out two options for me:

1. Fill the seats in my park, at the prices I have now, regardless of whether my team is a real contender or just appears to be through a string of marginal acquisitions. You suspect I can get away with this for the foreseeable future before I see a marked decrease in attendance.

2. Field a team of youngsters (most of whom I know are projected to be marginal MLB players on their best day), and try to score some PR points by cutting prices while filling an assumed lower % of seats. Maybe in a few years a few of my prospects pan out or a few difference-makers hit the FA market and I can get lucky enough to sign them.

I throw out Option 2 immediately, then I fire you for suggesting it.

Again, the logic of signing guys who are going to make you only marginally better (if at all) than last year just to justify their ticket prices is laughable. They had a payroll a hundred million dollars higher last year than it is right now. Obviously that number will still go up, but even so, it's not going to be close to what it was. Yet prices are going to stay where they were, so you can say you'd fire me if you owned the team, and that may be what would happen if someone suggested it, but throwing away money on bad signings isn't the answer to the problem either. In fact it's a joke. A really, really bad one at that.

For the record, you say "fill the seats", but guess what? They didn't fill them last year, and they won't fill them again this year either. Not because they went with a youth movement, or because they signed mid tier free agents, but because the product on the field sucks. You know what will fill their seats in the future? Having a championship caliber team and a front office that is championship driven. Until that happens, you're going to see empty seats all over the park, just like last year.