Red Fisher Conference Finals: Macon Whoopee vs. New Jersey Swamp Devils

[markrander87]

Red Sullivan is just the type of player to get under Sidney Crosby's skin in the playoffs

We've all seen Sidney Crosby play, so we have more information than just "sometimes he's amazing in the playoffs, sometimes he stinks," which is what a quick hockey-reference search of his stats would tell someone 30 years from now. We know that over the last few years, he has been prone to losing his cool at times in the playoffs, something that hurts his game at both ends of the rink.

Well, Sid, meet Red Sullivan. There is more info in his linked profile, but here are some highlights:

Heros: Stars of Hockey's Golden Era: "Sullivan, a centerman, was known for his forechecking abilities and his talent for verbally harassing the opposition."
Legends of Hockey: "He made a habit of stirring up trouble, especially against the Canadiens. He often took runs at goaltender Jacques Plante. Habs' defenseman Doug Harvey warned the abrasive Ranger centreman to lay off. When Sullivan failed to comply, Harvey speared him in the stomach with his stick and ruptured his spleen. A Catholic priest was called in to deliver Sullivan's last rights, but Sullivan survived and eventually resumed his duties as a Ranger."

Those Were the Days: Fights of Yesteryear: "As a rule, assassination attempts are not made public. Doug Harvey, a normally reserved Montreal defenseman, nurtured a long hate against the Rangers’ Red Sullivan because, Harvey later charges, Sully had a distracting habit of kicking Harvey’s skates out from under him during subtle melees in the corner of the rink. Several times Harvey suggested that Sully reform. But when verbalizing got no results, Harvey jabbed Sullivan in the stomach with the sharp blade of his stick in November 1956. The Ranger captain crumpled to the ice and was removed to St. Clare’s Hospital where a Catholic priest delivered his last rites. Fortunately, Sullivan recovered, following a spleen operation for relief of a contusion."

Doug Harvey (in the heat of the moment?): "I hope the son-of-a-***** dies. Put that in your papers."

But Sullivan wasn't just an agitator and nothing else. In a 1958 poll of the 6 NHL coaches, he finished 1st for "best defensive forward," 1st for "best hustler/hardest worker," and 2nd (behind Don Marshall) for "best penalty killer." He was a good enough scorer to finish top 10 in NHL points 2 times and top 10 in NHL assists 3 times. And he was selected to 5 All-Star gams on merit. http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/sullire01.html

Macon's newer, softer second line leaves Crosby with little protection, allowing NJ to take subtle shots at Crosby without fear of retribution

Maltsev was a great scorer, but he was pretty soft:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/maltsev.html

As for Craig Ramsey, fantastic defensive player, but Danny Gare, while nothing special as a defensive player himself, was the tough guy of the Ramsey-Luce-Gare line. I've seen Ramsey criticized (when compared to Bob Gainey) for not being tough enough to handle the more physical RWs in the playoffs. I have no idea if that's true, or just chest thumping by fans of Gainey, but either way, I don't see Ramsey as any sort of deterrent from messing with Crosby.

Just so i'm clear....when I get last change the Crosby line with Ramsay will be out against New Jerseys top line.

When New Jersey has last change Ramsay will slot back on to my 3rd line moving Watson back to the 2nd line (as Ramsay will not be wasting his time apparently matching up against your 4th line which you plan on playing 20+ minutes a game.)

 

[jarek]

Yeah, one thing about Crosby for sure is that he doesn't respond well when players take shots at him. When he is abused and man handled physically, he more or less shuts down.

 

[jarek]

Just so i'm clear....when I get last change the Crosby line with Ramsay will be out against New Jerseys top line.

When New Jersey has last change Ramsay will slot back on to my 3rd line moving Watson back to the 2nd line (as Ramsay will not be wasting his time apparently matching up against your 4th line which you plan on playing 20+ minutes a game.)

Wait.. you want to play the Crosby line against NJ's top line? If I was NJ, that's a matchup I'd love to have, as Joliat-Taylor is a great answer to Crosby-Maltsev IMO.

 

[markrander87]

Wait.. you want to play the Crosby line against NJ's top line? If I was NJ, that's a matchup I'd love to have, as Joliat-Taylor is a great answer to Crosby-Maltsev IMO.

Again Jarek, you're missing the big picture....this allows Nik Lidstrom to play all those minutes as well with the Crosby line against New Jerseys top line.

Wait for it.....

New Jersey plays Fetisov with his top line....

Perfect, that leaves his 2nd/4th line on a complete island against my top line with Stewart/Moore.


You know Jarek, there is some rationale involved in line matching, I guess I have to spell these things out.

 

[markrander87]

Yeah, one thing about Crosby for sure is that he doesn't respond well when players take shots at him. When he is abused and man handled physically, he more or less shuts down.

Glad to see BW back....thats as dumb as saying Lindros is guaranteed to get ko'd in these playoffs. Thanks for your precise, proven, statistical analysis Jarek. You should stick to getting eliminated in the 3rd round...

 

[jarek]

Again Jarek, you're missing the big picture....this allows Nik Lidstrom to play all those minutes as well with the Crosby line against New Jerseys top line.

Wait for it.....

New Jersey plays Fetisov with his top line....

Perfect, that leaves his 2nd/4th line on a complete island against my top line with Stewart/Moore.


You know Jarek, there is some rationale involved in line matching, I guess I have to spell these things out.

I guess it makes sense, but sending the Crosby line against the Taylor line will result in a matchup loss for you, I think. You're placing an awful lot of faith in Nels Stewart to get the job done, but his linemates are quite a bit worse than him offensively. I'd rather have Lidstrom play with Stewart to provide some playmaking help.

 

[markrander87]

I guess it makes sense, but sending the Crosby line against the Taylor line will result in a matchup loss for you, I think. You're placing an awful lot of faith in Nels Stewart to get the job done, but his linemates are quite a bit worse than him offensively. I'd rather have Lidstrom play with Stewart to provide some playmaking help.

Dickie Moore is the best forward in terms of playoff resume in the entire series for either team.

 

[jarek]

Dickie Moore is the best forward in terms of playoff resume in the entire series for either team.

Dickie Moore in the playoffs, Vs1:

100 (113 Vs2), 100 (118 Vs2), 93, 83, 58 (73 Vs3), 56 (83 Vs2), 47 (64 Vs2)

That's pretty good, yeah.

 

[markrander87]

Dickie Moore in the playoffs, Vs1:

100 (113 Vs2), 100 (118 Vs2), 93, 83, 58 (73 Vs3), 56 (83 Vs2), 47 (64 Vs2)

That's pretty good, yeah.

Thanks for that stat Jarek

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Third lines

We keep hearing about this third line of yours, what exactly are they bringing to the table? It really seems like another one trick pony team that if shut down will have zero secondary scoring.

Quite frankly, NJ's 3rd line is better than Macon's, AINEC!

Vs-X 7 year scores (using the newer, simpler, unweighted standard):

Johnny Gottselig: 74.8
Neil Colville: 72.1 (possibly hurt by the fact that he had at least 2 strong years as a defenseman, where he wasn't getting any VsX credit)
Wilf Paiement: 65.3

Harry Watson: 59.3
Fleming MacKell: 59.7
Danny Gare: 61.1

I had to calculate Watson, MacKell, and Gare's numbers myself, since all of them were lower than the top 250 all time that Hockey Outsider posted in the main VsX thread. Let me know if I made any errors, anyone.

Both lines are decent defensively, but not shutdown, calibre - I really don't see much difference there. NJ's 3rd line was created to be a third scoring line with decent defensive ability from all 3 players. What is the purpose of Macon's 3rd line? All 3 of Macon's 3rd liners are also decent defensively, but not good enough to be a shutdown line, and not good enough offensively to be a 3rd scoring line.

Macon's 3rd line is basically a typical ATD 4th line getting 3rd line minutes - tough guy wingers, and forechecking center who was great at killing penalties - all of them adequate (but not great) defensively at even strength. But with Craig Ramsey taken off the line, any semblance of a shut down line goes out the window.

 

[markrander87]

3 key factors when voting:

- New Jersey is peppered with players with poor playoff resumes. Yes Macon have a couple players whose numbers decrease in the playoffs, but as a whole it is down right scary the drop in production New Jerseys top 6 have during playoff time. Who is the clutch goal scorer for New Jersey that will score the big goal in a close series like this?

- New Jersey is not built to handle a team like mine. While building my team, I was banking on playing team like this with poor 2nd lines. To beat my team you need a good 2-way 2nd line (such as having a Forsberg or Dave Keon as your 2nd line centre). That type of team would give Macon a tough run.

- When it's all said and done and you feel these teams are very close, we 100% know these 4 things...AINEC. Macon has the best player in the series (Lidstrom). Macon has the clutch playoff scorer (Dickie Moore). Macon has the better goaltending (Roy Worters). Macon was voted ahead of New Jersey in the regular season and therefore has home ice advantage and will get the all important last change if a game 7 is needed.

 

[Dreakmur]

- New Jersey is peppered with players with poor playoff resumes. Yes Macon have a couple players whose numbers decrease in the playoffs, but as a whole it is down right scary the drop in production New Jerseys top 6 have during playoff time. Who is the clutch goal scorer for New Jersey that will score the big goal in a close series like this?

Would be nice to see some statistical analysis here.

 

[Sturminator]

Glad to see BW back....thats as dumb as saying Lindros is guaranteed to get ko'd in these playoffs.

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

[Sturminator]

Everything Phil Watson did to make him an ATD-calibre player was done as a playmaking CENTER

The same thing is true of Hooley Smith, though. We should expect Watson's point production to take a hit here, but we should also take into account that mark has pretty much exactly replicated the most successful of Stewart's real life lines.

 

[Sturminator]

Well, Sid, meet Red Sullivan. There is more info in his linked profile, but here are some highlights:

Macon's newer, softer second line leaves Crosby with little protection, allowing NJ to take subtle shots at Crosby without fear of retribution.

I agree that this is a difficult matchup for Macon, especially with Watson gone and the Lidstrom pairing backing up Crosby and not the Hatcher pairing. How much TOI do you see your 4th line getting in this series? Will you try to hard-match the 2nd/4th lines, or only bring your checkers out in certain situations?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is by far the worst entry I have ever seen by TDMM, if he wins this series it will be clearly based on GM reputation.

Lucky for me, I'm not competing against my championship team last year, or even your team from last year. I'm competing against the team you put together this time...

Just so i'm clear....when I get last change the Crosby line with Ramsay will be out against New Jerseys top line.

When New Jersey has last change Ramsay will slot back on to my 3rd line moving Watson back to the 2nd line (as Ramsay will not be wasting his time apparently matching up against your 4th line which you plan on playing 20+ minutes a game.)

Well, that's interesting. I don't know why you would want to throw out your Crosby line as the sacrificial lamb at the foot of my Taylor line, which is quite easily the best line in the series. The Taylor line is quite strong defensively, by the way, in particular Aurele Joliat - my favorite example is that Joliat was selected a 2nd Team All-Star LW in the unofficial GM-voted team in 1927, despite falling out of the top 20 in scoring (one of the few seasons in his prime when he wasn't top 10). I would characterize Taylor and Hextall as both "plus" players defensively too.

Craig Ramsey is awesome defensively, of course, but Hextall's sheer physical strength is a bad matchup for him.

Basically, whichever one of your lines you want to match up against the Taylor line is going to be outplayed at both ends of the ice. If you want that to be Crosby more power to you.

And, of course, at no point did I say I was playing the Sullivan line 20 minutes per game - you made that up as you are prone to do.

I agree that this is a difficult matchup for Macon, especially with Watson gone and the Lidstrom pairing backing up Crosby and not the Hatcher pairing. How much TOI do you see your 4th line getting in this series? Will you try to hard-match the 2nd/4th lines, or only bring your checkers out in certain situations?

The usage of the Sullivan line as a shutdown/troll line is quite simple - take key defensive zone faceoffs and troll the opposition until the play is safe, then any of NJ's more skilled lines come out. You want to get Crosby away from Sullivan? Fine - don't expect Crosby to be taking many key offensive zone draws then. Sullivan will also be opposite Crosby at the start of the PP, etc.

Maybe Sullivan will take the occasional shift on another line just to troll Crosby - I can definitely see that being something Hap Day would do.

_____

Edit: As for ice time, NJ's top line gets the most because they are the strongest line in this series by a clear margin, and are strong both ways so they can be used in all situations. I see NJ's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines getting similar ice time this series, with the 2nd line being used mostly in offensive situations, the 4th line in mostly defensive ones, and the 3rd line in both.

Eh.. maybe I should say that I see Sullivan getting similar ice time to Lindros and Colville - the 4th line wings probably get a little less than the wings from the other lines (this is accomplished by giving Sullivan shifts at random times to mess with Crosby).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dickie Moore is the best forward in terms of playoff resume in the entire series for either team.

And Nels Stewart is the worst. So where does that leave us?

Dickie Moore in the playoffs, Vs1:

100 (113 Vs2), 100 (118 Vs2), 93, 83, 58 (73 Vs3), 56 (83 Vs2), 47 (64 Vs2)

That's pretty good, yeah.

It certainly looks good, but keep in mind that the opposition was largely focusing on checking Jean Beliveau and/or Maurice Richard when Moore put up most of those those numbers. Really tough evaluating the secondary stars of the stacked 50s Habs for that reason, though Moore obviously would have been a star on any team, and I do think his playoff record is quite strong.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Are you that robotic were you can't grasp the concept of Watson handling the "Centre" role while playing with Stewart? Stewart is not a typical Centre. Is it really that tough to understand?

I realize that Nels Stewart is not a typical center, which is why I think Phil Watson will only see a decline in his production, rather than be totally useless. And yes, under normal circumstances, Phil Watson is not an ATD-calibre RW - but playing with the cherrypicking, tobacco-chewing goal suck of a center is not normal circumstances.

There's a reason the vast majority of the best playmakers play center - handling the puck more due to the nature of the position, being able to pass to both sides, having a clearer vision of the entire ice surface, etc. You can't just stick a guy who made a name for himself as a playmaking center on RW and not expect any loss of production. Not to mention that Watson's defensive responsibilities (he was known as a two-way center) are going to be different at wing.

Look at it this way: Best case scenario (Watson sees no decline in production when moving from C to RW), Phil Watson is a step down from Neil Colville as an overall player. But I think you have to expect some decline, especially from a playmaker-type.

The same thing is true of Hooley Smith, though. We should expect Watson's point production to take a hit here, but we should also take into account that mark has pretty much exactly replicated the most successful of Stewart's real life lines.

Hooley Smith was definitely better at C than RW, but I think you're forgetting that he actually had some significant accomplishments at RW before he was stuck on the Nels Stewart line. I believe Nalyd Psycho first pointed this out, but was Hooley Smith not playing RW next to Frank Nighbor when he got Hart votes in 1925 and 1926?

1924-25
HART: (514)
1. Billy Burch, Ham C/L 79
2. Howie Morenz, Mtl C 60
3. Clint Benedict, Mtl M G 58
4. Babe Dye, Tor RW 50
5. Aurel Joliat, Mtl LW 48
6. Hap Day, Tor LW 44
7. Jimmy Herbert, Bos C 41
8. King Clancy, Ott D 30
T9. Shorty Green, Ham RW 28
T9. Jake Forbes, Ham G 28
11. Georges Boucher, Ott D 16
12. Hooley Smith, Ott RW 14
13. Frank Nighbor, Ott C 10
14. Red Green, Ham LW 8
LADY BYNG:
1. Frank Nighbor, Ott C Selected by NHL President Frank Calder. No voting until next season.

1925-26
HART: (519)
1. Nels Stewart, Mtl M C 88
2. Sprague Cleghorn, Bos D 75
3. Frank Nighbor, Ott C 68
T4. Roy Worters, Pit G 44
T4. Hooley Smith, Ott C/R 44
6. Howie Morenz, Mtl C 34
7. Jimmy Herberts, Bos C 33
8. King Clancy, Ott D 28
T9. Charles Stewart, Bos G 24
T9. Lionel Conacher, Pit D 24
11. Billy Burch, NYA C/L 18
12. Reg Noble, Mtl M D 14
13. Bert McCaffery, Tor D 13
14. Babe Siebert, Mtl M LW 12

In 1927, NHL GMs voted Hooley Smith 3rd Team All-Star RW in the unofficial vote: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=90874683&postcount=775

Smith wouldn't be teammates with Nels Stewart until 1928.

My point is that while Hooley Smith clearly peaked at center after he no longer had to play with Nels Stewart, he was a quality RW at least some of the time before he played with Stewart, and was recognized as such. Phil Watson, on the other hand, probably played some wing early and late in his career, but I wouldn't say he had "success" at that position, and frankly, I'm unclear if Watson even played more RW than Sergei Fedorov or Evgeni Malkin, to name 2 recent centers who moonlighted at RW for a spell.

Positional listings aside Smith HAD to be a RW when he was playing with Nighbor in what was still an era of starters and subs, right?

 

[Sturminator]

In 1927, NHL GMs voted Hooley Smith 3rd Team All-Star RW in the unofficial vote: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=90874683&postcount=775

Smith spent the greater part of that season playing center while Nighbor nursed a bum ankle. In terms of impact on the team, this was probably his best season as a Sen, and it's entirely possible the team (which eventually won the Cup) wouldn't have even made the postseason without Smith holding it down at center. Hooley was productive on the right wing because he was a great player, but he was consistently best at his natural position, even going back to the Ottawa days.

The positions listed in that unofficial all-star team shouldn't be taken as gospel. They also have Howie Morenz listed as a right wing.

 

[markrander87]

Would be nice to see some statistical analysis here.

What has TDMM showed to prove otherwise? Am I wrong in saying especially his 2nd line have a dreadful Playoff resume?

I agree that this is a difficult matchup for Macon, especially with Watson gone and the Lidstrom pairing backing up Crosby and not the Hatcher pairing. How much TOI do you see your 4th line getting in this series? Will you try to hard-match the 2nd/4th lines, or only bring your checkers out in certain situations?[/QUOTE]

Still waiting to hear this one?

And Nels Stewart is the worst. So where does that leave us?

Bryan Hextall certainly is in that conversation...his playoff numbers are down right ugly.

It certainly looks good, but keep in mind that the opposition was largely focusing on checking Jean Beliveau and/or Maurice Richard when Moore put up most of those those numbers. Really tough evaluating the secondary stars of the stacked 50s Habs for that reason, though Moore obviously would have been a star on any team, and I do think his playoff record is quite strong.

And lets not forget the playoff resume of Nicklas Lidstrom.

IF MACON WAS VOTED AHEAD OF NEW JERSEY IN THE REGULAR SEASON, WE SHOULD 100% BE LOOKED UPON AS A BETTER PLAYOFF TEAM THEN NEW JERSEY AS WELL

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

IF MACON WAS VOTED AHEAD OF NEW JERSEY IN THE REGULAR SEASON, WE SHOULD 100% BE LOOKED UPON AS A BETTER PLAYOFF TEAM THEN NEW JERSEY AS WELL

You were in separate divisions, so you were not ranked relative to each other or relative to the same teams. I wouldn't say either team was ranked above/below the other. IMO the only thing we should take from the regular season voting for this matchup is that Macon has home ice, which is noteworthy as Quenneville is pretty good at working matchups.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Forward lines have been discussed a lot. I would like to see a more detailed comparison of the bluelines of each team. Both an individual comparison (#1 vs.#1, #2 vs.#2, etc.) and a look at the units and their roles (which I realize has been discussed some).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Forward lines have been discussed a lot. I would like to see a more detailed comparison of the bluelines of each team. Both an individual comparison (#1 vs.#1, #2 vs.#2, etc.) and a look at the units and their roles (which I realize has been discussed some).

Macon obviously has the stronger top pairing, and NJ obviously has the stronger 2nd pairing. He put his top 2 dmen together, while NJ put our #2 on the 2nd pairing. So I'll look at the top 4 as a whole.

Top 4 Defense

all-round #1s = Lidstrom vs Fetisov = small but clear advantage Macon because of Lidstrom's longevity as an elite player.

puck moving #2s = Murphy vs Cameron = close. If I had to pick, I'd say that I think Cameron is probably the better even strength player, as there is quite a bit of information about him being a difference maker, but it's hard to say. While Murphy is proven on the PP. Murphy was a strong player for so long. Like I said, I think with new information found, Cameron should be considered George Boucher's equal, which would put him extremely close to Larry Murphy on the HOH Top defensemen list for people who care about such things. (Personally I thought Murphy was overrated on that list as a guy as an offense-first guy who compiled numbers in a high scoring era, but obviously I was outvoted).

____________________________________

I could go either way with comparing the 3/4s. In the end, I decided to compare the shut down guys with each other, since it's the only easy comparison, as both have full Norris/All-Star records, and both should in theory be equally hurt by being defensive guys who didn't put up big stats.

Shut down #3/4 = Hatcher vs Schoenfeld = close = Schoenfeld with a slightly better awards record, Hatcher bridges the gap in the playoffs.

Schoenfeld All-Star record: 3, 8, 9, 11, 10, 12, 13
Hatcher All-Star record: 4, 11, 11, 14, 15, 15, 16

Schoenfeld Norris record: 3, 7, 10, 12
Hatcher Norris record: 3, 7

I'm using the "minimum = 2 top 3 votes" standard to be fair.

I was honestly surprised Hatcher's record wasn't better than it is. Both were defensive defensemen who excelled on the PK - the kind of guys usually underrated by the voting. Schoenfeld's competition in the late 70s/early 80s was at least as strong as Hatcher's in the mid-late 90s/early 00s. On paper, it looks like Schoenfeld is better, but I'll give Hatcher some bonus points as the captain and top defensive guy on the Cup winning stars, and say it's close. Perhaps a very small advantage to Macon if you think Hatcher played a big role on the 1999 and 2000 Dallas Stars.

Seriously someone correct me if I'm wrong - is there reason to think that Hatcher is more underrated by his awards record than Schoenfeld is?

Puck moving #3/4 - F Patrick vs Lutchenko = moderate advantage NJ, just because Patrick's time as a hockey player was so short.

Patrick = PCHA 1st Team All Star 1912, 1914. PCHA 2nd Team All Star 1917.
Lutchenko = Soviet League 1st Team All Star 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977

Tough guys to compare and it's possible Frank Patrick was better at his peak, but he played very few seasons and was not inducted into the HHOF as a player, playing at a time when it was easier to be enshrined (he was inducted as a builder).

I realize this isn't a fair comparison because Lutchenko is NJ's #3 and Patrick is Macon's #4, but Hatcher and Schoenfeld are just such a natural comparison. ANd I think Lutchenko as the 2nd best Soviet dman of his generation (albeit a big step down from Valeri Vasiliev) would be an advantage over Hatcher too.

____________

Overall. So who has the better top 4? It depends on how you weigh the advantage Macon has at #1 (Lidstrom vs Fetisov) with the value NJ has at #3 (Lutchenko vs either Hatcher or Patrick).

Bottom pairing

Puck movers look close. (Which surprised me; I expected Redden to be clearly better).

Redden All-Star record: 6, 9, 10, 11
Iafrate All-Star record: 4, 6, 15

Redden Norris record: 5, 9, 10
Iafrate Norris record: 6, 6

Again, using the "minimum 2 top 3 votes" as a standard.

I think Arbour probably beats Macoun as a defensively oriented #6:

Arbour All-Star record: 5, 5
Macoun All-Star record: 14, 16

Arbour Norris record: 5, 6
Macoun Norris record: none

Why do I say "probably" beats? As the #1 dman on the best expansion team (the Blues), Arbour was in the spot light more than a pure shut down guy from the 80s. On the other hand, Arbour tied with Bobby Orr and Ted Harris in an NHL coach's poll from 1971 for "best defensive defenseman" in the league, showing coaches supported the writers' recognition of Arbour during his time as the top guy on the expansion Blues.

Macoun was had more seasons played under his belt, but that's because Arbour was sent to the AHL due to a numbers game, as he was property of the stacked O6 Leafs, and clearly had his best seasons after expansion.

Overall: NJ's bottom pairing is probably better because Arbour appears to have a defensive peak better than Macoun's.

That said, I don't think it's that big a difference, despite what the awards voting looks like - I do think Macoun is a very good defensive-minded #6. He never had the peak recognition, but ate a lot of minutes for some very good teams.

 

[Sturminator]

IF MACON WAS VOTED AHEAD OF NEW JERSEY IN THE REGULAR SEASON, WE SHOULD 100% BE LOOKED UPON AS A BETTER PLAYOFF TEAM THEN NEW JERSEY AS WELL

I don't understand this argument. It almost looks like you're saying we don't even need to play the series because Macon got more regular season votes. Can't say I agree with that.

 

[markrander87]

Macon obviously has the stronger top pairing, and NJ obviously has the stronger 2nd pairing. He put his top 2 dmen together, while NJ put our #2 on the 2nd pairing. So I'll look at the top 4 as a whole.

Top 4 Defense

all-round #1s = Lidstrom vs Fetisov = small but clear advantage Macon because of Lidstrom's longevity as an elite player.

puck moving #2s = Murphy vs Cameron = close. If I had to pick, I'd say that I think Cameron is probably the better even strength player, as there is quite a bit of information about him being a difference maker, but it's hard to say. While Murphy is proven on the PP. Murphy was a strong player for so long. Like I said, I think with new information found, Cameron should be considered George Boucher's equal, which would put him extremely close to Larry Murphy on the HOH Top defensemen list for people who care about such things. (Personally I thought Murphy was overrated on that list as a guy as an offense-first guy who compiled numbers in a high scoring era, but obviously I was outvoted).

____________________________________

I could go either way with comparing the 3/4s. In the end, I decided to compare the shut down guys with each other, since it's the only easy comparison, as both have full Norris/All-Star records, and both should in theory be equally hurt by being defensive guys who didn't put up big stats.

Shut down #3/4 = Hatcher vs Schoenfeld = close = Schoenfeld with a slightly better awards record, Hatcher bridges the gap in the playoffs.

Schoenfeld All-Star record: 3, 8, 9, 11, 10, 12, 13
Hatcher All-Star record: 4, 11, 11, 14, 15, 15, 16

Schoenfeld Norris record: 3, 7, 10, 12
Hatcher Norris record: 3, 7

I'm using the "minimum = 2 top 3 votes" standard to be fair.

I was honestly surprised Hatcher's record wasn't better than it is. Both were defensive defensemen who excelled on the PK - the kind of guys usually underrated by the voting. Schoenfeld's competition in the late 70s/early 80s was at least as strong as Hatcher's in the mid-late 90s/early 00s. On paper, it looks like Schoenfeld is better, but I'll give Hatcher some bonus points as the captain and top defensive guy on the Cup winning stars, and say it's close. Perhaps a very small advantage to Macon if you think Hatcher played a big role on the 1999 and 2000 Dallas Stars.

Seriously someone correct me if I'm wrong - is there reason to think that Hatcher is more underrated by his awards record than Schoenfeld is?

Puck moving #3/4 - F Patrick vs Lutchenko = moderate advantage NJ, just because Patrick's time as a hockey player was so short.

Patrick = PCHA 1st Team All Star 1912, 1914. PCHA 2nd Team All Star 1917.
Lutchenko = Soviet League 1st Team All Star 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977

Tough guys to compare and it's possible Frank Patrick was better at his peak, but he played very few seasons and was not inducted into the HHOF as a player, playing at a time when it was easier to be enshrined (he was inducted as a builder).

I realize this isn't a fair comparison because Lutchenko is NJ's #3 and Patrick is Macon's #4, but Hatcher and Schoenfeld are just such a natural comparison. ANd I think Lutchenko as the 2nd best Soviet dman of his generation (albeit a big step down from Valeri Vasiliev) would be an advantage over Hatcher too.

____________

Overall. So who has the better top 4? It depends on how you weigh the advantage Macon has at #1 (Lidstrom vs Fetisov) with the value NJ has at #3 (Lutchenko vs either Hatcher or Patrick).

Bottom pairing

Puck movers look close. (Which surprised me; I expected Redden to be clearly better).

Redden All-Star record: 6, 9, 10, 11
Iafrate All-Star record: 4, 6, 15

Redden Norris record: 5, 9, 10
Iafrate Norris record: 6, 6

Again, using the "minimum 2 top 3 votes" as a standard.

I think Arbour probably beats Macoun as a defensively oriented #6:

Arbour All-Star record: 5, 5
Macoun All-Star record: 14, 16

Arbour Norris record: 5, 6
Macoun Norris record: none

Why do I say "probably" beats? As the #1 dman on the best expansion team (the Blues), Arbour was in the spot light more than a pure shut down guy from the 80s. On the other hand, Arbour tied with Bobby Orr and Ted Harris in an NHL coach's poll from 1971 for "best defensive defenseman" in the league, showing coaches supported the writers' recognition of Arbour during his time as the top guy on the expansion Blues.

Macoun was had more seasons played under his belt, but that's because Arbour was sent to the AHL due to a numbers game, as he was property of the stacked O6 Leafs, and clearly had his best seasons after expansion.

Overall: NJ's bottom pairing is probably better because Arbour appears to have a defensive peak better than Macoun's.

That said, I don't think it's that big a difference, despite what the awards voting looks like - I do think Macoun is a very good defensive-minded #6. He never had the peak recognition, but ate a lot of minutes for some very good teams.

I'm not going to pretend like I have the time nor the ability to provide a breakdown better than this (TDMM did a fine job). When its all said and down the blue lines are very close. What it boils down to is the most important and best player carries the most weight and sees the most ice time, and everyone here knows Lidstrom is clearly ahead of Fetisov.

Is anyone needing statistical evidence showing my blue line is not more of a positive in playoffs as well?

Lidstrom, Murphy, Hatcher and even Macoun have all been key contributors to cup winning teams.