Line Combos: (Realistically) Do we have 2 number 2 Centres?

[Joey Hoser]

We can't be afraid to move Bozak away from Kessel. Surely there's a better centre than Bozak our there. We just keep him at 1C because we'll never find Kessel the right guy?

Hogwash!

The point is you have to find and acquire the ****in' guy before you plan to have him. If you could just simply make these moves happen we would've done that already. Anaheim is not waiting for us to offer Kadri and a pick for Getzlaf. It's just not happening. Get real man. This isn't NHL 14.

 

[The CyNick]

obviously not, but as a direct comparison Getz is usually around 48% and Kadri 44%

Getz is also a +28 and Kadri a -11 so defensively he's also better

So the 50% limit you spoke of was just something to fill space on a message board?

 

[Community]

I don't think any Leafs GM had turned down acquiring Tavares for pucks because we don't think he can play with Kessel better than Bozie.

The issue is more that when people say we don't have a number one centre, but yet Bozak works well with Kessel, so it's not a problem.

Could we get a better centre, yeah, but good luck finding them.

Agreed, however I think right now would be a good time to trade for a #1C as Bozak's value will most likely never be any higher than it will this year.

 

[Mess]

I would move either in a package for a higher impact C. Kadri is easier to move, im sure

Kadri has more value. If teams wanted Bozak so badly then they would have gone after him when he was UFA last summer before resigning in Toronto.

If you're going to upgrade the #1C position through trade then moving out one of your current centers filling those spots only makes logical sense. Upgrade suggests taking one thing and making it better.

A top line center would be very expensive in trade in assets and so Kadri being a piece of the offer would certainly seem logical to believe.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Lol that's so far from the truth, defense is perhaps one of the most teachable areas of the game.

If it's as true as you say it is then what had Kadri learned this whole time? Come on. Someone in juniors, the AHL, and the NHL has tried to teach him! If that's true then he's failed miserably. He's not learning at all. Or maybe it's just not in him. Like he doesn't care at all.

 

[Kelly]

Which team is going to trade their top centre for a package including a lesser center and some spare parts of the maple leafs?

We're better off letting Kadri develop and hoping he can become that guy for us, or whoever we draft in the future.

Or maybe we can pray a special Toronto boy decides to come home as a UFA in 2 years.....

 

[Kelly]

If it's as true as you say it is then what had Kadri learned this whole time? Come on. Someone in juniors, the AHL, and the NHL has tried to teach him! If that's true then he's failed miserably. He's not learning at all. Or maybe it's just not in him. Like he doesn't care at all.

He just finished his first season in the NHL, and is 23 years old. Calm down.

 

[pspot]

So the 50% limit you spoke of was just something to fill space on a message board?

when your #1 C is 48%, #2 45%, #3% 45% , #4 53%

its an issue....especially for a team that is poor defensively
I like puck possession hockey

getz was 49% and their worst C 48.8% with the two others about 50

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

What teams around the league feel they have to many 1st line centers and want to down grade on that position? Can we send some of our 2nd pairing d-man to them for a #1 d-man as well? That would be nice.

 

[Bardown warrior]

Yzerman is a great example of a gifted offensive player that learned the defensive side of the game as he matured.

(This is an example, I'm not comparing Kadri to Yzerman)

So your comparing Kadri to...... Yzerman?

 

[The CyNick]

when your #1 C is 48%, #2 45%, #3% 45% , #4 53%

its an issue....especially for a team that is poor defensively
I like puck possession hockey

getz was 49% and their worst C 48.8% with the two others about 50

I'm not disputing that faceoffs are important. Just poking holes in your 50% logic.

 

[Mess]

Which team is going to trade their top centre for a package including a lesser center and some spare parts of the maple leafs?

We're better off letting Kadri develop and hoping he can become that guy for us, or whoever we draft in the future.

Or maybe we can pray a special Toronto boy decides to come home as a UFA in 2 years.....

Jason Spezza has already been linked to rumours involving Kadri.

I was watching a Canes game near the end of the season and the colour guys were talking about Carolina possibly be considering moving Eric Staal this summer during their rebuild, once Rutherford steps down and the new GM comes in.

Both these players are Ontario boys and #1 capable centers and teams looking for younger assets picks and prospects in return of which Kadri would be considered such a player.

 

[The CyNick]

Kadri has more value. If teams wanted Bozak so badly then they would have gone after him when he was UFA last summer before resigning in Toronto.

If you're going to upgrade the #1C position through trade then moving out one of your current centers filling those spots only makes logical sense. Upgrade suggests taking one thing and making it better.

A top line center would be very expensive in trade in assets and so Kadri being a piece of the offer would certainly seem logical to believe.

who is trading a number one centre though? These pie in the sky ideas are fun, but not based in reality. If I have a number one centre, I'm not looking at Kadri as a key piece to get back.

 

[Wami]

If it's as true as you say it is then what had Kadri learned this whole time? Come on. Someone in juniors, the AHL, and the NHL has tried to teach him! If that's true then he's failed miserably. He's not learning at all. Or maybe it's just not in him. Like he doesn't care at all.

Newsflash, the entire team was terrible defensively this year. Kadri was indeed a minus 11 on this team, but guess what?


Nazem Kadri, -11
Morgan Rielly, -13
David Clarkson,-14
Tim Gleason, -14
Joffrey Lupul, -15
Cody Franson, -20


His whole damn line was bad, and was actually worse than him. Furthermore, I happened to watch every game this year. Every. Single. One.

There were lots of times where I saw him make defensive errors, but no more than I saw the entire team make those errors. Certainly about 100x less than I saw Franson give the puck up for a breakaway or 2 on 1. For every bad defensive play I saw Kadri make, I've seen him make just as many great backchecks and awesome hits (#7th on the team). The fact that we're all just gobbling up your nonsense that he is a horrible defensive player is ridiculous. He's inconsistent, but not incapable of being a good defensive player; however, putting Kadri under a defensive microscope is to completely ignore the disastrous defensive play of the entire team.

 

[Mess]

who is trading a number one centre though? These pie in the sky ideas are fun, but not based in reality. If I have a number one centre, I'm not looking at Kadri as a key piece to get back.

Asked and answered see above post #62.

Also if you don't think Kadri can even be a piece in a multi-player offer for a #1C then what does that say about Naz contribution and status as Leaf top 6 center? You're essentially saying Kadri has little interest or trade value of other teams coveting him in trade.

If you had a #1C there would be no way you would consider Kadri in a package to deal for him, taking the position of an NHL GM viewpoint.

 

[Wami]

I just had a sudden realization...

Is there any way we can determine how much time Kadri spent on the ice with Franson as his defenseman... that would be a great insight...

 

[Purity*]

Newsflash, the entire team was terrible defensively this year. Kadri was indeed a minus 11 on this team, but guess what?


Nazem Kadri, -11
Morgan Rielly, -13
David Clarkson,-14
Tim Gleason, -14
Joffrey Lupul, -15
Cody Franson, -20


His whole damn line was bad, and was actually worse than him. Furthermore, I happened to watch every game this year. Every. Single. One.

There were lots of times where I saw him make defensive errors, but no more than I saw the entire team make those errors. Certainly about 100x less than I saw Franson give the puck up for a breakaway or 2 on 1. For every bad defensive play I saw Kadri make, I've seen him make just as many great backchecks and awesome hits (#7th on the team). The fact that we're all just gobbling up your nonsense that he is a horrible defensive player is ridiculous. He's inconsistent, but not incapable of being a good defensive player; however, putting Kadri under a defensive microscope is to completely ignore the disastrous defensive play of the entire team.

Good post. People do not realize how bad our defense really was this year. Like I said, it was masked a lot by Bernier being super-human early in the season. The ONLY players who actually defended good were Phaneuf and Gunnar, and Phaneuf fell apart after the olympic break probably due to being overworked.

First line = garbage defense, scored tons of goals but gave up just as many.
Second line = Lupul was bad defensively (he's usually really good offensively though), Clarkson was on the second line for the most part of the season and he is definitely not good defensively, a little better than Lupul though. Where exactly does that leave Kadri? Granted he wasn't good this year, he's atleast still young playing on a total mess of a team. I still have lots of faith in Kadri.

On defense, Franson was a total disaster, Phaneuf looked incredibly bad after the olympic break, Rielly is a rookie defensemen, Ranger was really bad early in the season (he did get better though), and Gleason fell apart as well. I thought Gardiner and Gunnar did very well for the assignments they were asked to do.

Make no mistake about it, this team is Islanders/Panthers/Oilers level of bad on defense.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Bozak hasnt really played with anybody but kessel, so its tough to tell... He also meshes well with Lupul... I guarantee if we keep kadri, he'll be the no.1 centre couple years down the road.

I'm not so sure about that, seems like a high end #2 to me. It could happen though.

One thing I do know for sure though, is if we trade Kadri, he's be a #1 Center in the very near future, because well that's how things usually happen in Leaf Land.

 

[diceman934]

Why do we care how many points Bozak gets on the 2nd line? What if they win with a 1C and Bozak at 2C? Do we only care about everyone's individual stats for the sake of bragging rights on hockey forums?

Why would we trade Kadri who already produced more points in the past two years and is considerably younger and more skilled playing on the 2nd and 3rd line as well as on the second PP unit than Bozak? It would make little sense to trade Kadri over Bozak as Bozak just had his career year and Kadri's is ahead of him.

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

If you could magically find a young-ish legitimate #1C that you could package Kadri for, then I'm all for it. However, Jamie McLennan had a good line on Leafs Lunch last week; you can't just manufacture players. There's so much talk about replacing players with a specific type of player (i.e "legitimate #1C", "top-6 powerforward", "reliable two-way defenseman"), but there's very little talk about which exact players would actually fit that role and could viably be acquired. It's easy to complain about the roster we've got and then say Nonis is an idiot because it would obviously be so much better with 'x' players in it, but the fact is that those are purely placeholders and have no real meaning. Give some options for replacements if you want to suggest these kinds of roster changes (not how much it would take to trade for them or sign them in free agency). Trading Bozak/Kadri/whoever is meaningless if there actually aren't better options on the market right now.

 

[Kelly]

Jason Spezza has already been linked to rumours involving Kadri.

I was watching a Canes game near the end of the season and the colour guys were talking about Carolina possibly be considering moving Eric Staal this summer during their rebuild, once Rutherford steps down and the new GM comes in.

Both these players are Ontario boys and #1 capable centers and teams looking for younger assets picks and prospects in return of which Kadri would be considered such a player.

Eklund is a fraud, and should not be considered a "link", that's where the Spezza rumors surfaced, and they shouldn't be taken seriously.

We'd be dumb to ship away Kadri for a 30 year old oft injured Spezza anyway, who we more than likely could sign in a year for free (except $$) anyway. I also doubt Ottawa has any interest in helping us find a center to put between our duo that lights them up multiple times a season.

Eric Staal would be a great pickup, and he's been a player I've wanted since he's came into the league. But I doubt the Hurricanes are actually looking at shipping him off, especially if Rutherford steps down I doubt the new GM's first move would be shipping off the captain and franchise player.

That's two options that are unlikely, and each of those centers will be 30+ next year. In my opinion, we should be looking at younger options, as I believe we won't be near contention for another 4-5 years, if that. We really can't pick and choose with our trade options, and "settling" with our only option will probably backfire. Our best way to find a 1C would be through draft.

 

[diceman934]

You also can't teach natural defensive skills that certain other players posses. It's the same thing as trying to teach a player whos 1st talent isn't offense "Kadri's natural skill". Obviously it can't be done.

People on HF all to often act as if defense is just something that you teach a player. In reality it's as much of a natural instinct as the offensive skills a player like Kadri is gifted with.

You are kidding right?

Natural skill you are born with....it can be fine tuned but you have it or not. You can teach anyone to play without the puck....it is no where a skill that you either have or do not have. It is basically positioning with both body and stick, and making reads off of your team mates something you need little skill to do.

Kadri is a good defensive player his line mates no so much in Lupul and Raymond. Kadri learned how to play without the puck from Hunter in London. Most of defensive hockey is simple.....it is just hard work.

 

[Trapper]

Asked and answered see above post #62.

Also if you don't think Kadri can even be a piece in a multi-player offer for a #1C then what does that say about Naz contribution and status as Leaf top 6 center? You're essentially saying Kadri has little interest or trade value of other teams coveting him in trade.

If you had a #1C there would be no way you would consider Kadri in a package to deal for him, taking the position of an NHL GM viewpoint.

So the question is: Which center(s) do you think are better than Kadri that might be made available to Leafs if you include a 1st round pick or Gardiner/Franson?

You will never get the high end. The Getzlaf,Crosby,Tavares,Stamkos types.
You might get the mid level. The Stepan type. (My choice)
You might give up a little offense for a better 200 foot game. The Henrique type who play a better 2-way game.
You might get the really young ones who could be a higher end than Kadri but he's better today. A Strome type.

Also if Spezza moves, I see Richards bought out and Spezza as a NYR.

 

[Mindrust]

Tyler Bozak is the best two-way player on our team and you think we should trade him because he has an unsustainable shooting %. What a joke.

I have nothing against Bozak, but advanced stats say he is bad defensively.

 

[glasses91]

Another Kadri bashing thread?

Take a break haters.