Prospect Info: Rank our top 10 prospects
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Baxterman
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Its hard to imagine a group that is worse but I am not sure the Oilers group is much better. I also think this is where looking at say U21 (or some other age group) is better than just saying prospects. Because if you have a bunch of young guys so good that they are in the NHL early I would gladly take that then a prospect group that includes guys not good enough to make that jump.
For example, If Edmonton says our forward prospects are better than yours based on Puljujarvi well I will take Tkachuk playing in the NHL over a supposed better prospect group so not really sure their prospects being better means a whole lot in that case.
Fig
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What? No.
We produced a good crop and sold it all/moved it up to the big corp. You also have to consider how much of our forward crop was moved in the last two seasons and consider that as well. Consider also what was put into our farm system via draft. The system has done well to keep many of these guys in consideration. Even if they aren't super high quality guys, having a decent amount of NHL games is the point of the farm system. Anything more is gravy. There were a few guys that were desired by other teams as well. Poirier being lost is probably a reflection of the system, sure. But that issue has been fixed.
- Janko
- Hathaway
- Lomberg
- Lazar
- Klimchuk
- Dube
Lazar and Klimchuk were desired by other teams. Klimchuk moved for a dman. Hathaway was getting solid minutes and then desired by Washington. Janko currently getting regular bottom 6 minutes because he's too good for the AHL. Dube is ready to go, but he would be better served getting solid minutes in the A than meh minutes in the NHL. Lomberg... might be issues relating to size as well as logjam... but he's a good guy to have around.
Consider the fact that of the above, one is a super project first rounder in a bit of a meh draft, one is a second rounder, two are first rounders in the biggest bust draft in recent history and the rest are all undrafted or very low picks. That's a very anemic crop of forward talent to be put into Stockton.
The next crop of talent isn't as decent quality as the previous crop, but I think there's a huge difference in looking at the system vs the talent crop planted in it at the moment. Add on the fact we have a ton of guys in college programs at the moment and it sorta makes sense.
It would be nice to have more blue chip prospects in the A ready to jump, but I think if we are patient, the forward group will overflow in a season or two once a few guys graduate.
Fig
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I guess to add on to it, I'm not trying to crap on your comment @Mobiandi, I'm saying the thin forward prospects is a function of garbage in, garbage out. Treliving spent the time to significantly overhaul the system, and I think we've seen the rewards of it.
The comments about the Edmonton forward prospect corps actually has merit to it.
If this list is to be taken seriously...
If the Oilers end up buyers at the deadline, which Edmonton top prospects are likely on the Most Wanted List of other NHL teams
Input:
- Pulujarvi (1st round)
- Yamamoto (1st round)
- Benson (High 2nd)
- Maksimov (5th)
- Samorukov (3rd)
- McLeod (2nd)
and the only recent graduate is Khaira (3rd). That's a serious system issue since quite a few of those guys have spent a full season or more in their development system. There are some pretty high profile prospects in that group who shouldn't have serious issues with talent, which means that the system is likely the culprit.
Our biggest long term guys and fizzles were guys like:
- Lazar (damaged goods before we acquired him, but still desired as he was signed by Buffalo and we were looking to extend him and something 2013)*
- Klimchuk (Seemed like management still liked him, but his development was always full of injuries and something 2013)*
- Poirier (Completely derailed by an alcohol addiction and something 2013)*
- Shinkaruk (Not sure what's going on here... something 2013)*
- Rychel (Not sure what's going on here... something 2013)*
- Pollock (Not sure what's going on here... 2014 flub by the Stars? Seemed like a throw in alongside Jokkipakka in the Russell trade anyways) 2nd rounder
- Joly (Not sure what's going on here... but supposedly had issues with the coaches? Undetected character issues?) 3rd rounder
- Foo (Seemed like he was developing well and he did get a QO, but chose to get a better opportunity in China instead?) Undrafted
* = Former 1st rounders
That being said, there seemed to be issues with the quality of prospect even prior to the flubbing. That could ultimately mean that though we flubbed those 1st rounders (as well as acquired based projects with that same draft season), they were suspect talents prior to even entering our system. This might be why plenty of other teams are dealing with failed 2013 1st and 2nd rounder prospects as well vs what looks like a significantly stronger 1st and 2nd round class of prospects in 2014. This isn't meant to be a crapping on the Oilers for no reason. It's just an easy set of two prospects and systems to compare.
The comments about the Edmonton forward prospect corps actually has merit to it.
If this list is to be taken seriously...
If the Oilers end up buyers at the deadline, which Edmonton top prospects are likely on the Most Wanted List of other NHL teams
Input:
- Pulujarvi (1st round)
- Yamamoto (1st round)
- Benson (High 2nd)
- Maksimov (5th)
- Samorukov (3rd)
- McLeod (2nd)
and the only recent graduate is Khaira (3rd). That's a serious system issue since quite a few of those guys have spent a full season or more in their development system. There are some pretty high profile prospects in that group who shouldn't have serious issues with talent, which means that the system is likely the culprit.
Our biggest long term guys and fizzles were guys like:
- Lazar (damaged goods before we acquired him, but still desired as he was signed by Buffalo and we were looking to extend him and something 2013)*
- Klimchuk (Seemed like management still liked him, but his development was always full of injuries and something 2013)*
- Poirier (Completely derailed by an alcohol addiction and something 2013)*
- Shinkaruk (Not sure what's going on here... something 2013)*
- Rychel (Not sure what's going on here... something 2013)*
- Pollock (Not sure what's going on here... 2014 flub by the Stars? Seemed like a throw in alongside Jokkipakka in the Russell trade anyways) 2nd rounder
- Joly (Not sure what's going on here... but supposedly had issues with the coaches? Undetected character issues?) 3rd rounder
- Foo (Seemed like he was developing well and he did get a QO, but chose to get a better opportunity in China instead?) Undrafted
* = Former 1st rounders
That being said, there seemed to be issues with the quality of prospect even prior to the flubbing. That could ultimately mean that though we flubbed those 1st rounders (as well as acquired based projects with that same draft season), they were suspect talents prior to even entering our system. This might be why plenty of other teams are dealing with failed 2013 1st and 2nd rounder prospects as well vs what looks like a significantly stronger 1st and 2nd round class of prospects in 2014. This isn't meant to be a crapping on the Oilers for no reason. It's just an easy set of two prospects and systems to compare.
Fig
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From what I have read, he's like a slower Mangiapane. He also likes to try and power towards the net. It seemed also that he had been working significantly on his strength since last camp.
No idea at all, but I wonder if he's somewhere between Mangiapane and Hathaway? I'd love it if someone could confirm.
BigRangy
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He absolutely does have the chance to be. He’s got the skills package and by all accounts is putting in the work off the ice and in practice. It will be interesting to watch him and Brink (hopefully) light up the NCAA next year for Denver.
GumbyCan2
Registered User
Yikes! I think you are pretty close to correct! How is this happening, again/ still?? Better pick it up scouting staff...
A) I think a lot of people are sleeping on Pettersen, Zavgorodniy, and to a lesser extent, Sveningsson. The first two are legitimate prospects, especially Pettersen and there's a good chance Sveningsson joins them next season. Folks get too caught up on their draft position while completely ignoring their post draft seasons (a lot like Mangiapane in that regard). Any re-draft would have all of these guys move up significantly. There's also Phillips who got some rave reviews in the development camp; he'll be another one to watch in September.
B) Hard to attain veritable blue chippers when you're not drafting in the top 10-15. Everyone is basically a good prospect to a project after that.
C) Drafting and development has actually been fine if not outright excellent. It's more the matter that Treliving has traded an absolutely absurd amount of draft picks (especially with regards to second rounders) in recent years with some uh, middling results. Rough giveaway is
Two 1st rounders (2015, 2018)
Six 2nd rounders (2015, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019)
Two 3rd rounders (2017, 2018)
One 4th rounder (2020)
One 5th rounder (2018)
All since 2015 for the likes of Hamilton, Hamonic, Lazar, Stone, Elliott, Smith and Fantenberg.
Lazar, Elliott, Smith and Fantenberg all amounted to nothing more or less; all lost to free agency. Stone is currently a cap anchor and potentially buyout fodder, although his original acquisition played a huge role in helping the Flames make the playoffs; he just shouldn't have been re-signed for three years. Hamonic has had one bad year, one good year and one awful playoffs; he was also trade bait for a short amount of time until Treliving pulled him off likely because the market just wasn't there. The Hamilton trade, which was already a steal, was further improved by turning him (plus Ferland and Fox) into Lindholm and Hanifin (with both on amazing contracts).
So basically yeah, the Flames prospect pool is bottom ten for sure, maybe even bottom five, but that's largely the result of Treliving giving away his picks like candy. Granted, it's not like he hasn't acquired picks either (he had to in order to be able to trade so many away) but they were supposed to be for the rebuild. It's funny; the Flames haven't picked in the second round in three years but in the two years prior to that (the point at which it officially became Treliving's team) they took four players there in Andersson, Kylington, Parsons and Dube. All late second rounders too.
B) Hard to attain veritable blue chippers when you're not drafting in the top 10-15. Everyone is basically a good prospect to a project after that.
C) Drafting and development has actually been fine if not outright excellent. It's more the matter that Treliving has traded an absolutely absurd amount of draft picks (especially with regards to second rounders) in recent years with some uh, middling results. Rough giveaway is
Two 1st rounders (2015, 2018)
Six 2nd rounders (2015, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019)
Two 3rd rounders (2017, 2018)
One 4th rounder (2020)
One 5th rounder (2018)
All since 2015 for the likes of Hamilton, Hamonic, Lazar, Stone, Elliott, Smith and Fantenberg.
Lazar, Elliott, Smith and Fantenberg all amounted to nothing more or less; all lost to free agency. Stone is currently a cap anchor and potentially buyout fodder, although his original acquisition played a huge role in helping the Flames make the playoffs; he just shouldn't have been re-signed for three years. Hamonic has had one bad year, one good year and one awful playoffs; he was also trade bait for a short amount of time until Treliving pulled him off likely because the market just wasn't there. The Hamilton trade, which was already a steal, was further improved by turning him (plus Ferland and Fox) into Lindholm and Hanifin (with both on amazing contracts).
So basically yeah, the Flames prospect pool is bottom ten for sure, maybe even bottom five, but that's largely the result of Treliving giving away his picks like candy. Granted, it's not like he hasn't acquired picks either (he had to in order to be able to trade so many away) but they were supposed to be for the rebuild. It's funny; the Flames haven't picked in the second round in three years but in the two years prior to that (the point at which it officially became Treliving's team) they took four players there in Andersson, Kylington, Parsons and Dube. All late second rounders too.
Fig
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Well, if you look at what was in the prospect pool when Treliving arrived, it's also impressive what he was able to get out of that group as well. We were supposed to be in the CMD sweepstakes with an anemic prospect pool that had Baertschi lead the charge.
We also had a team all the way in Adirondack and a minors coach who coached his own veterans to try and win rather than develop the kids. The first draft by Burke was a bunch of flubs and Treliving has tirelessly since then cleaned up the mess that was our development system.
1. Bring the system closer to home in a way that's easier to monitor (Stockton) and reduces the travel of the players
2. Bring on a better coaching staff to train the players in the current coach's system to ease transition as well as focus on player development by putting trust in prospects to aid development vs always playing vets to aim for the win.
3. Significant revamp and improvements to addressing substance abuse and mental illness.
4. Significant retool of the development camp to aid development of the players rather than just pit them against each other to fight for a chance for recognition.
While we might complain about Stone and Neal, on paper, it seemed like a good step at the time. Also, if they're the worst contracts on our roster, we're doing alright in comparison to a few other teams.
There's something in the prospect pool and our picks so far are largely intact. The NHL roster is also overflowing with talent to the point of an embarrassment of riches. He also cleansed the roster and prospect pool of many sins of the past.
I'm not saying that it's a no no to criticize the prospect pool, but IMO, there's been a significantly bigger fix that was required there than most people realize. Treliving has done well to balance both NHL and farm.
We also had a team all the way in Adirondack and a minors coach who coached his own veterans to try and win rather than develop the kids. The first draft by Burke was a bunch of flubs and Treliving has tirelessly since then cleaned up the mess that was our development system.
1. Bring the system closer to home in a way that's easier to monitor (Stockton) and reduces the travel of the players
2. Bring on a better coaching staff to train the players in the current coach's system to ease transition as well as focus on player development by putting trust in prospects to aid development vs always playing vets to aim for the win.
3. Significant revamp and improvements to addressing substance abuse and mental illness.
4. Significant retool of the development camp to aid development of the players rather than just pit them against each other to fight for a chance for recognition.
While we might complain about Stone and Neal, on paper, it seemed like a good step at the time. Also, if they're the worst contracts on our roster, we're doing alright in comparison to a few other teams.
There's something in the prospect pool and our picks so far are largely intact. The NHL roster is also overflowing with talent to the point of an embarrassment of riches. He also cleansed the roster and prospect pool of many sins of the past.
I'm not saying that it's a no no to criticize the prospect pool, but IMO, there's been a significantly bigger fix that was required there than most people realize. Treliving has done well to balance both NHL and farm.
Johnny Hoxville
The Return of a Legend
Fig
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Baxterman
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Its happening because in recent years we have graduated Tkachuk, Bennett, Mangiapane and to a lesser extent Monahan and Gaudreau. (Lesser extent only because with their age they are out of the prospect age range now).
Based on thier age you could easily have Mangiapane and Tkachuk in the prospect group still if it wasn't for the fact that they are good enough to play in the NHL. I am not sure we should punish the scouts for having guys being too good for the NHL.
Also, with our forward core having Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, Lindholm and Bennett the need for young forward talent has been able to be ignored to fill in holes other places in our organization.
So while it isn't great, I think a little slack can be given in regards to our prospect depth. It certainly is an area that now needs to improve and get some attention but taking an overall view of what happened to get here I think it is understandable.
Volica
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Fun article on the Athletic about Martin Pospisil. I think he's a guy a lot of people are sleeping on, but a pick the Flames knocked out of the park with.
'You can't manufacture that sort of intensity': How the...
'You can't manufacture that sort of intensity': How the...
Fig
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HighLifeMan
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1. Jusso Valimaki
2. Dillon Dube
3. Oliver Kylington
4. Jakob Pelletier
5. Emilio Pettersen
6. Tyler Parsons
7. Ilya Nikolayev
8. Demetrious Koumontzis
9. Martin Pospisil
10. Matt Phillips
11. Milos Roman
12. Adam Ruzicka
13. Dustin Wolf
14. Glen Gawdin
15. Eetu Tuulola
We are extremely deep up front, but are really lacking in defensive prospects. It makes sense that Treliving has targeted guys like Yelesin and Johan Lerby to bridge the gap. Not even listed are guys like Philp, Sveningsson, Feuk, Nodler, Zavgorodny, and Lindstrom who may eventually develop into NHL players for all we know.
2. Dillon Dube
3. Oliver Kylington
4. Jakob Pelletier
5. Emilio Pettersen
6. Tyler Parsons
7. Ilya Nikolayev
8. Demetrious Koumontzis
9. Martin Pospisil
10. Matt Phillips
11. Milos Roman
12. Adam Ruzicka
13. Dustin Wolf
14. Glen Gawdin
15. Eetu Tuulola
We are extremely deep up front, but are really lacking in defensive prospects. It makes sense that Treliving has targeted guys like Yelesin and Johan Lerby to bridge the gap. Not even listed are guys like Philp, Sveningsson, Feuk, Nodler, Zavgorodny, and Lindstrom who may eventually develop into NHL players for all we know.
alko
Registered User
Volica
Papa Shango
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Pay for read.Can you write a short elaborate?
Essentially he's full of piss and vinegar. They want to roll that back without taking away from the uniqueness of the player. Made great strides in that regards this past year, minus the interaction with the fans blowout he had.
Will be heading to pro this year.
Ace Rimmer
Stoke me a clipper.
I think Pospisil gets at least one regular season NHL game in 2019-20, just as long as he can dial back the crazy just a bit.
neelynugs
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Tkachuk Norris
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- Jun 22, 2012
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1. Valimaki
2. Dube
3. Pelletier
4. Kylington
5. Peterssen
6. Pospisil
7. Nicolaev
8. Parsons
9. Ruzicka
10. Gawdin
HM: Phillips, Z, Svenningson
2. Dube
3. Pelletier
4. Kylington
5. Peterssen
6. Pospisil
7. Nicolaev
8. Parsons
9. Ruzicka
10. Gawdin
HM: Phillips, Z, Svenningson
Johnny Hoxville
The Return of a Legend
Dack
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2014
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- 3,546
1. Valimaki
2. Dube
3. Pelletier
4. Kylington
5. MEP
6. Phillips
7. Nikolaev
8. Parsons
9. Koumontzis
10. Pospisil
2. Dube
3. Pelletier
4. Kylington
5. MEP
6. Phillips
7. Nikolaev
8. Parsons
9. Koumontzis
10. Pospisil
Qubax
Registered User
I don't want this to be a recency bias, but I slightly put Pelletier over Dube. I think they are close though.
1. Valimaki
2. Pelletier
3. Dube
4. Nikolayev
5. Pospisil
6. Kylington
6. MEP
7. Phillips
8. Koumontiz
9. Svennigson
10. Gawdin
11. Ruczika
1. Valimaki
2. Pelletier
3. Dube
4. Nikolayev
5. Pospisil
6. Kylington
6. MEP
7. Phillips
8. Koumontiz
9. Svennigson
10. Gawdin
11. Ruczika
